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View Full Version : Should murderer get sex change opperation at tax payer expense



stumbler
02-27-2008, 10:44 PM
A CNN commentator is really howling about a man who is in prison for killing his wife but has filed a suit to make the state pay for his sex change operation. The commentator pointed out that just what the state has paid so far for therapy, hair removal, horomones and other things add up to more than the cost of the sex change operation. And he complains it looks like a judge will grant his request.

The suit is filed under the cruel and unusual punishment protections but I only have one question. If he gets the operation will they keep him in the men's prison or tansfer him to a woman's prison? I see problems with either of these options.

What do you guys think?

Bukkake Bunny
02-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Absolutely not. I think it's ridiculous that the state has paid for so much already. Prison is supposed to be a form of punishment, but somehow these prisoners have turned it into something more akin to free living.

We give prisoners 3 square meals a day, time to exercise, showers, toilets, toothpaste, a place to sleep. We give them counseling, education, rehab programs, opportunities to make (a little) money while working, vocational training. We do our best to keep them safe from one another. Now we have to pay thousands of dollars for an operation because one prisoner has a fucking identity issue?

Give me a fucking break.

MusicMachine
02-27-2008, 11:56 PM
I'll cut his dick off for nothing! Now where is my rusty knife?

tenguy
02-28-2008, 12:21 AM
I'll cut his dick off for nothing! Now where is my rusty knife?

I hold him for you MM, we could bore a hole too.

stumbler
02-28-2008, 12:35 AM
Absolutely not. I think it's ridiculous that the state has paid for so much already. Prison is supposed to be a form of punishment, but somehow these prisoners have turned it into something more akin to free living.

We give prisoners 3 square meals a day, time to exercise, showers, toilets, toothpaste, a place to sleep. We give them counseling, education, rehab programs, opportunities to make (a little) money while working, vocational training. We do our best to keep them safe from one another. Now we have to pay thousands of dollars for an operation because one prisoner has a fucking identity issue?

Give me a fucking break.
\
We have usually agreed of late but not in this instance BB. Those are largely myths. The truth is counseling, education and rehab programs are nearly non-existentm or so over crowded they might may as well not exist. Most prisons are dangerously over crowded and actually under the control of the prisoners where they order murders and conduct international drug trade from behind bars.

Violence and murder and assaults sexual and otherwise are sky rocketing and so are diseases and failing health care systems. These are the ramifications of the US becoming a prison nation.

Now does that mean we should pay for sex change operations? I ain't so sure about that myself. But I sure thought it was interesting.

PS I'll google the story to be sure. But if we can get to the bottom of it, I bet we find a wacko judge there.

MusicMachine
02-28-2008, 02:04 AM
I hold him for you MM, we could bore a hole too.
Thanks, we should do the CNN guy at the same time!

tenguy
02-28-2008, 02:13 AM
Thanks, we should do the CNN guy at the same time!
Maybe we could start a business, Sex changes R Us.

stumbler
02-28-2008, 02:30 AM
I finally got around to looking this up and it is quite the story.

First Gender Identity Disorder appears to be a recognized medical condition and the supreme court has ruled that prisons must provide for the medical care of prisoners. Apparently inmates in other states have already sued to receive treatment for the disorder and won.

Robert Kosilek, who now goes by the name of Michelle, has successfully sued the state for treatment which includes female hormone treatments and laser hair removal. He contends however that these treatments do not help or have stopped working and now wants to have the sex change operation.

He is in federal court this week for the suit and a psychiatrist has testified that without the surgery he may likely commit suicide. The real catch words however come from his attorney saying that gender identity disorder be treated like any other medical condition. If it has already been ruled that way it might not be possible to go against the precedence.

The state however is presenting a good counter argument that if the request was granted it would actually endanger Michelle's well being. (Apparently they'd still keep him in the men's prison).


The legal wrangling of course goes back to several supreme court decisions that have ruled the state and federal government does have a responsibility to hold prisoners in a humane and safe environment: i.e. provide medical treatment and protect the prisoners from harm.

I really doubt that the request for the surgery will be granted but it is kind of an interesting story.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/9296414/detail.html

tenguy
02-28-2008, 02:45 AM
If you consider the legal costs to both side (notice I didn't write sides, as we pay both), it probably would be cheaper to de-male him.

alf20
02-28-2008, 04:29 AM
I think the criminal should get to benefit at our expense I mean Congress just probed Roger Clemens with our money. I hardly see why someone else should not get what they want from our hard earned money.

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 04:38 AM
A CNN commentator is really howling about a man who is in prison for killing his wife but has filed a suit to make the state pay for his sex change operation. The commentator pointed out that just what the state has paid so far for therapy, hair removal, horomones and other things add up to more than the cost of the sex change operation. And he complains it looks like a judge will grant his request.

The suit is filed under the cruel and unusual punishment protections but I only have one question. If he gets the operation will they keep him in the men's prison or tansfer him to a woman's prison? I see problems with either of these options.

What do you guys think?

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

A PRISONER GETS THE FULL TREATMENT AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE WHILE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS ARE HARASSED, FIRED, AND HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING THEMSELVES SINCE INSURANCE WONT COVER IT, SO WHY DOES THE GOVT COVER IT, DAMN IT I AM GOING TO PRISON AND TELL THE OTHER GIRLS TOO.

IF HE HAS SRS AND BY NOW SHOULD BE REFERED TO AS SHE ANYWAY, SHE WILL BE TRANSFERED TO THE WOMEN'S.

THIS HAS MADE ME MADDER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE EVER READ.:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/:*/

WHY IS IT CONSIDERED NECESSARY MEDICAL CARE FOR THAT PERSON AND NOT FOR THE REST OF US.

IT IS NOT A CHOICE WE JUST WANT TO MAKE, IT IS A BIRTH DEFECT, I WOULD NOT HOWEVER DOUBT THAT THE INMATE REALLY IS A FEMALE IN A MALE BODY. NO SANE MALE PERSON WOULD WANT TO GO THRU EVERYTHING WE DO FOR ANY REASON.

MAYBE I SHOULD JUST GO KILL MYSELF LIKE THE FLAMERS ADVOCATED. THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN THE WORLD.

stumbler
02-28-2008, 04:48 AM
Damn Z you just about knocked off my stool. I didn't quite anticipate your reaction but can see now that was my oversight.

I got a couple of important questions for you though. Is there such a thing as Gender Identity disorder and has it actually been classified as such by the medical community?

givinup
02-28-2008, 04:53 AM
lets cut it off and ass fuck him raw and then design the perfect pussy for him and then throw him back in to have all the inmates violently rape him over and over again ...

A010011000111
02-28-2008, 04:59 AM
Damn Z you just about knocked off my stool. I didn't quite anticipate your reaction but can see now that was my oversight.

I got a couple of important questions for you though. Is there such a thing as Gender Identity disorder and has it actually been classified as such by the medical community?

yep and its the only post i read because it stood out when i flipped through the thread.

stumbler
02-28-2008, 05:09 AM
lets cut it off and ass fuck him raw and then design the perfect pussy for him and then throw him back in to have all the inmates violently rape him over and over again ...

Nope can't do that it would definitely violate the no cruel and unusual punishment clause of the US constitution and I 'm a big believer in the Constitution. However ..................


yep and its the only post i read because it stood out when i flipped through the thread.

...................I think Z's might have been cruel and unusual posting.

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 05:40 AM
Damn Z you just about knocked off my stool. I didn't quite anticipate your reaction but can see now that was my oversight.

I got a couple of important questions for you though. Is there such a thing as Gender Identity disorder and has it actually been classified as such by the medical community?

Yes it has Stumbler, please to transgender.com/guidance and read what Dr. Bushong has written. He could have been writing about me.

All of us transpeople have brains of the opposite sex from our genitals. I may be one of the oldest to ever find out why I was always different from other men. His treatise on the 3 parts of the brain relating to sex/relationships answered a question for me I have always wondered about. I just found that yesterday. All of the transpeople's brains (mtf's) are wired completely female in the relationship/sex department. Yet genetic girls brains may have o or 2 of the 3 areas wired male.

So in lmy relationships I have never been able to contemplate sex as fuckem and forgetem, there always had to be a love relationship. That is a female, not a male thing.

The standard of mental health professionals is a book called DSM-IV. In order to get the SRS (genital change operation) in this country and many others we have to jump thru all the hoops of the Benjamin protocols outlined in it. The book has the status of law in many maybe all sstates, not necessarily the book itself but the content.

We are required to have psychological counseling (for our own benefit to make sure that this is what we want as it is not reversible - at least not very well) So we have to be "saner" than ordinary people to qualify, and go through 2 years of living as a woman, (some allow one year), and have estrogen hormone treatments, and although lnot mandatory, most have electroysis to remove facial and body hair. (Ever seen a woman with hair between her breasts?). Laser hair removal is not as effective.

All of this costs LOTS OF MONEY and none of it is covered by insurance as they consider it believe it---COSMETIC. At least that is their excuse.

But the DSM protocol makes it a "disease" that can be cured by "corrective surgery" and treatment. Many mental health professionals openly say it is all bullshit and that we should have the same freedom everyone else does to control our bodies and modifications.

I am one of lucky lucky lucky few. This body was originally intended to be female but something went wrong. I look good, I have more female outward characteristics than male ones. Hormones wont do much for me except make my breasts grow bigger, yes I want that. But I do no counseling except the transgender support group, I see no need for it for me. I buy over the counter Fenugreek for breast growth. I would love to have my facial and chest hair permanently removed. To remain feminine looking I should shave twice a day but I get by with oncedaily if I push it. Insurance or medicare covers NOTHING. Not even the hormones (estrogen) or my Fenugreek phytoestrogen. My drivers license now says female and I am completely accepted everywhere I go as just another woman.

Some of the girls spend fortunes on body surgery and bone surgery to remodel their faces into female contours. I dont need to. If you never have done so look at my pics on Empress Lainie (ya, even the semi-porno ones).

I have never been happier or more satisfied with myself in my life.
Things not true: transpeople are all gay, NO. transpeople can be lesbian, hetero, or bi, or asexual, just like anyone else. There is no connection to sexual preference vis a vis being transgendered.

We are not crossdressers, drag queens, pageant queens. All of those people KNOW they are males inside and out. But they like to do the women's clothing things.

Did you know that now-a-days ALL WOMEN are crossdressersf, and no one even notices, but let a man go out in a skirt and all hell breaks loose.

A mantra I made up for relating to the nontrannies: EDUCATION=UNDERSTANDING=ACCEPTANCE.

My exwife cant deal with my gender change and it hurts. I am lucky she is the only one I lost. Others lose everyone they know. The hate and discrimination is rampant. We get killed and beaten up. Again I am lucky, the only people that know I am trans are the ones who knew me BGC(before gender change) and everyone except here has had complete and total acceptance.

Guess this turned out to be a sermon on forum regarding transpeople. Hope it answered your question, but bet that it created lots more. I am always open to PM or Email or Webcam or YIM on the subject with anyone.

Anyone that has been on here very long knows MY sexual orientation is to girls only, so I am lesbian. When I first joined before I knew I was trans, I had I am a lesbian in my signature. So something in me subconsciously knew it for a long long time. My conscious mind didn't have a clue untill my Epiphany July 2 2007. But I knew in Jan 2007 that the year was going to bring a big change, just didn't know what it was.

Here endeth the Papal Sermon
Pope Shirley blesses all who read this

Love for the whole forum
Empress Lainie

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 05:50 AM
Everyone except HER has accepted me, not the word HERE, goddam typing gremlins.

exceeded 5min limit to correct errors, that was the most important correction. Everyone HERE HAS had complete acceptance, except the 12 and 13 yr old BOYS.

One thing more, Stumbler, they call it Gender dysphoria officially.

bigbird
02-28-2008, 09:17 AM
Of course we should pay for the sex change - he/she is serving their time for killing someone in cold blood, and everything we can do to make their stay in prison more pleasant than it currently is should be done - i personally think it's a shocking disgrace that they don't have 52 inc plasma tv's and eat caviaar for breakfast - with shampers to wash it down - we call ourselves a civilised society?

davetrucker
02-28-2008, 02:50 PM
I say NO. But then if you look at in another way. Give him a pussy then leave him in the same prison and he will get shagged rotten and will wish he had stayed a male ( not a man )

ALNA214
02-28-2008, 03:52 PM
They have phones, television, free meals, lounge areas if they behave themselves. The prisons I have visited (county ones) in my capacity as a pastor or counselor, seemed to have some more or less happy inmates running around loose. Dont know for sure if they were all trustees.

oldiegoody
02-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Just a side note, the Canadian Military now pays for sex change operations for soldiers that qualify. I'm not sure if our Medicare pays for for civilians.

snreu105
02-28-2008, 03:55 PM
Of course we should pay for the sex change - he/she is serving their time for killing someone in cold blood, and everything we can do to make their stay in prison more pleasant than it currently is should be done - i personally think it's a shocking disgrace that they don't have 52 inc plasma tv's and eat caviaar for breakfast - with shampers to wash it down - we call ourselves a civilised society?

Along with conjugal visits and free kids to the molestor sections. Since most of these people didnt do it, we need to be nice to them while they serve out their misguided sentences.

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 04:10 PM
Just a side note, the Canadian Military now pays for sex change operations for soldiers that qualify. I'm not sure if our Medicare pays for for civilians.

The US Medicare pays for nothing unless you can find a doctor willing to say you have testicular cancer or something else to justify the hormone treatments. But estrogen is available over the counter from foreign sources. You can also get an RX for it and do the injections yourself.

Electrolysis for body and facial hair removal is considered "cosmetic" and not covered, and dont think even a sympathetic doc could find a reason for it medicare would approve.

stumbler
02-28-2008, 04:32 PM
Yes it has Stumbler, please to transgender.com/guidance and read what Dr. Bushong has written. He could have been writing about me.

All of us transpeople have brains of the opposite sex from our genitals. I may be one of the oldest to ever find out why I was always different from other men. His treatise on the 3 parts of the brain relating to sex/relationships answered a question for me I have always wondered about. I just found that yesterday. All of the transpeople's brains (mtf's) are wired completely female in the relationship/sex department. Yet genetic girls brains may have o or 2 of the 3 areas wired male.

So in lmy relationships I have never been able to contemplate sex as fuckem and forgetem, there always had to be a love relationship. That is a female, not a male thing.

The standard of mental health professionals is a book called DSM-IV. In order to get the SRS (genital change operation) in this country and many others we have to jump thru all the hoops of the Benjamin protocols outlined in it. The book has the status of law in many maybe all sstates, not necessarily the book itself but the content.

We are required to have psychological counseling (for our own benefit to make sure that this is what we want as it is not reversible - at least not very well) So we have to be "saner" than ordinary people to qualify, and go through 2 years of living as a woman, (some allow one year), and have estrogen hormone treatments, and although lnot mandatory, most have electroysis to remove facial and body hair. (Ever seen a woman with hair between her breasts?). Laser hair removal is not as effective.

All of this costs LOTS OF MONEY and none of it is covered by insurance as they consider it believe it---COSMETIC. At least that is their excuse.

But the DSM protocol makes it a "disease" that can be cured by "corrective surgery" and treatment. Many mental health professionals openly say it is all bullshit and that we should have the same freedom everyone else does to control our bodies and modifications.

I am one of lucky lucky lucky few. This body was originally intended to be female but something went wrong. I look good, I have more female outward characteristics than male ones. Hormones wont do much for me except make my breasts grow bigger, yes I want that. But I do no counseling except the transgender support group, I see no need for it for me. I buy over the counter Fenugreek for breast growth. I would love to have my facial and chest hair permanently removed. To remain feminine looking I should shave twice a day but I get by with oncedaily if I push it. Insurance or medicare covers NOTHING. Not even the hormones (estrogen) or my Fenugreek phytoestrogen. My drivers license now says female and I am completely accepted everywhere I go as just another woman.

Some of the girls spend fortunes on body surgery and bone surgery to remodel their faces into female contours. I dont need to. If you never have done so look at my pics on Empress Lainie (ya, even the semi-porno ones).

I have never been happier or more satisfied with myself in my life.
Things not true: transpeople are all gay, NO. transpeople can be lesbian, hetero, or bi, or asexual, just like anyone else. There is no connection to sexual preference vis a vis being transgendered.

We are not crossdressers, drag queens, pageant queens. All of those people KNOW they are males inside and out. But they like to do the women's clothing things.

Did you know that now-a-days ALL WOMEN are crossdressersf, and no one even notices, but let a man go out in a skirt and all hell breaks loose.

A mantra I made up for relating to the nontrannies: EDUCATION=UNDERSTANDING=ACCEPTANCE.

My exwife cant deal with my gender change and it hurts. I am lucky she is the only one I lost. Others lose everyone they know. The hate and discrimination is rampant. We get killed and beaten up. Again I am lucky, the only people that know I am trans are the ones who knew me BGC(before gender change) and everyone except here has had complete and total acceptance.

Guess this turned out to be a sermon on forum regarding transpeople. Hope it answered your question, but bet that it created lots more. I am always open to PM or Email or Webcam or YIM on the subject with anyone.

Anyone that has been on here very long knows MY sexual orientation is to girls only, so I am lesbian. When I first joined before I knew I was trans, I had I am a lesbian in my signature. So something in me subconsciously knew it for a long long time. My conscious mind didn't have a clue untill my Epiphany July 2 2007. But I knew in Jan 2007 that the year was going to bring a big change, just didn't know what it was.

Here endeth the Papal Sermon
Pope Shirley blesses all who read this

Love for the whole forum
Empress Lainie

Thank you Z this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for and really does show how complicated the problem of receiving treatment is while the disorder itself seems rather straight forward as does the cure. Obviously this is another thing that is being discriminated against by the government much like drug addiction being classified as a disease by the American Medical Association but classified as will misconduct by the government so insurance companies do not have to pay for treatment.


Of course we should pay for the sex change - he/she is serving their time for killing someone in cold blood, and everything we can do to make their stay in prison more pleasant than it currently is should be done - i personally think it's a shocking disgrace that they don't have 52 inc plasma tv's and eat caviaar for breakfast - with shampers to wash it down - we call ourselves a civilised society?

Time to watch one of your favorite shows again BB; The Shaw Shank Redemption.


They have phones, television, free meals, lounge areas if they behave themselves. The prisons I have visited (county ones) in my capacity as a pastor or counselor, seemed to have some more or less happy inmates running around loose. Dont know for sure if they were all trustees.

We must be seeing different jails and prisons. The ones I'm seeing and the one I've been in are overcrowded (sometimes by as much as 200% of capacity) the possibility of being sexually assaulted, physically assaulted, or killed is very high. Medical treatment is nearly non-existence causing diseases and illness to spread through the population.

I also find it amazing the people like seem to object to "free meals" are you suggesting we should just lock people up and starve them to death this seems rather extreme to me. The other things you mention, phones, televisions and lounge areas are by no means universal in all jails and prisions.


Along with conjugal visits and free kids to the molestor sections. Since most of these people didnt do it, we need to be nice to them while they serve out their misguided sentences.

There is actually way more truth to this than you might think. In watching the news I have seen at least four cases in the past couple of months were DNA and other forms of new evidence have freed people who have been in prison for more than a decade some of them even on death row, for crimes they did not commit.

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 05:37 PM
Was sure I had posted this to Stumbler onhere maybe didn't hit the submit button.

Check my Heroin addiction - a treatise thread I put up yesterday it is relevant to your comments, Stumbler.

billblondel344
02-28-2008, 06:54 PM
[quote=stumbler;763486]Nope can't do that it would definitely violate the no cruel and unusual punishment clause of the US constitution and I 'm a big believer in the Constitution.


I belive if you kill some one you should die the exact same way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

twisted minds
02-28-2008, 08:11 PM
I belive if you kill some one you should die the exact same way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
He can hope that he castrated his victim. I dont think the taxpayer shold foot the bill. If she can find an outside source then sure, let her have the operation. It will give the rapists some variety.

Empress Lainie
02-28-2008, 08:13 PM
He can hope that he castrated his victim. I dont think the taxpayer shold foot the bill. If she can find an outside source then sure, let her have the operation. It will give the rapists some variety.

You didnt go back to post #1, the murderer killed his wife in cold blood.

twisted minds
02-28-2008, 08:36 PM
You didnt go back to post #1, the murderer killed his wife in cold blood.
I admit I did not reread the whole thread before I posted that. Made me look like an idiot but I'm pretty good at that. I'll rephrase I bet he wished he had killed a guy and castrated him based on the posters opinion that I replied to.

tenguy
02-28-2008, 11:17 PM
There is actually way more truth to this than you might think. In watching the news I have seen at least four cases in the past couple of months were DNA and other forms of new evidence have freed people who have been in prison for more than a decade some of them even on death row, for crimes they did not commit.

So the percentage is what 1/800,000 of one percent?