PDA

View Full Version : Palestine v. Israel



Distant Lover
01-09-2009, 05:57 PM
This photo says it all:

Resident of Maryland
01-09-2009, 06:03 PM
Nothing like a lil bit of propoganda in the afternoon. :rolleyes:

join993
01-09-2009, 06:10 PM
This photo says it all:

Firstly. that's not a photo.

Secondly, it says your opinion, nothing else.

Heyesey
01-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Secondly, it says your opinion, nothing else.


The Palestinians have always used innocent civilians as a human shield. That's not anyone's opinion, it's a known fact.

Most other countries aren't ruthless enough to go ahead and fire anyway, knowing they'll take out all the civilians as well as the enemy. The Israeli government and army don't much seem to care how much collateral damage they cause.

join993
01-09-2009, 06:53 PM
The Palestinians have always used innocent civilians as a human shield. That's not anyone's opinion, it's a known fact.

Most other countries aren't ruthless enough to go ahead and fire anyway, knowing they'll take out all the civilians as well as the enemy. The Israeli government and army don't much seem to care how much collateral damage they cause.

Israeli soldiers threw nerv gas at a pregnant mother. Just for laughs. The boy in the mothers stomach got the most bizarre mutation.

This is the truth. It was one of my best friends that was in this mothers stomach when it happened. He lived in Palestine during a short time of the beginning of his life. The Israeli soldiers will still kill innocent Palestinians, whether or not Hamas will hide in schools.

Thandrend
01-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Israeli soldiers threw nerv gas at a pregnant mother. Just for laughs. The boy in the mothers stomach got the most bizarre mutation.

This is the truth. It was one of my best friends that was in this mothers stomach when it happened. He lived in Palestine during a short time of the beginning of his life. The Israeli soldiers will still kill innocent Palestinians, whether or not Hamas will hide in schools.

The Palestinians will kill innocents too. Quit being one-sided.

PatronofPorn
01-09-2009, 07:09 PM
The Palestinians will kill innocents too. Quit being one-sided.

Not on the mass scale like Israel does.

Why are you trying to silence join's criticisms of Israel? I wasn't aware that join said the Palestinians were these innocent school children. He pointed out what Israel did and does.

Distant Lover
01-09-2009, 07:21 PM
Firstly. that's not a photo.

Secondly, it says your opinion, nothing else.

You're right about it not being a photo. I wish one's ability to edit one's post was not limited to 10 minutes.

However, it is true that the Palestinians like to shoot their rockets from behind schools, hospitals, and mosques. The Palestinians know that they are fighting a civilized enemy.

join993
01-09-2009, 07:26 PM
You're right about it not being a photo. I wish one's ability to edit one's post was not limited to 10 minutes.

However, it is true that the Palestinians like to shoot their rockets from behind schools, hospitals, and mosques. The Palestinians know that they are fighting a civilized enemy.

According to me, the Israelis are not civilized. They got a country, they lived there, in PEACE! Then they had to make war, to extend their kingdom... I know much about this..

The Jews in Israel are barbaric, if you know the whole story. I've heard the truth being told from people who lived it, from people who was being OBJECTIVE, not trying to get their own opinions into the story. You on the other hand, are not objective, I dunno whether I'm being objective or not, but god knows I'm trying.

Heyesey
01-09-2009, 08:27 PM
According to me, the Israelis are not civilized. They got a country, they lived there, in PEACE! Then they had to make war, to extend their kingdom... I know much about this..

No you don't. Every war between Israel and the Arab countries has been either started, or directly caused, by the Arabs. Usually, in fact, without even bothering to declare war but just launching an unprovoked attack out of nowhere.

Heyesey
01-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Not on the mass scale like Israel does.

Only for lack of firepower. If Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would cease to exist tomorrow. Israel DOES have a nuclear weapon, and Gaza still stands.

join993
01-09-2009, 08:53 PM
You do seriously not have your facts straight. If someone would pick on you for a looooong time... would you really tell this person "I am gonna punch you now!" or would you just do it?

Are you even aware of the conditions in Palestine right now? You cannot know, since then you wouldn't think the same.

Kimiko
01-09-2009, 09:42 PM
You're right about it not being a photo. I wish one's ability to edit one's post was not limited to 10 minutes.

However, it is true that the Palestinians like to shoot their rockets from behind schools, hospitals, and mosques. The Palestinians know that they are fighting a civilized enemy.

I guess they can afford to be "civilized", since they have overwhelming military superiority, thanks to the United States. But by all means, demonize your enemy. It's part of a long and glorious tradition.

There's an interesting article in this week's Time...basically making the case that Israel ultimately cannot win militarily, and must work toward a negotiated settlement. Hardly a new message, but one the Israelis have obviously not received. You should read it.

Kimiko
01-09-2009, 09:45 PM
Only for lack of firepower. If Hamas had a nuclear weapon, Tel Aviv would cease to exist tomorrow. Israel DOES have a nuclear weapon, and Gaza still stands.

Nonsense. You have nothing to base that on whatsoever. Even the leaders of Hamas know that they would be completely annihilated in that event, and that the U.S. would be justified in doing so.

Kimiko
01-09-2009, 09:48 PM
No you don't. Every war between Israel and the Arab countries has been either started, or directly caused, by the Arabs. Usually, in fact, without even bothering to declare war but just launching an unprovoked attack out of nowhere.

Also not true. Israel launched the attack on the Sinai in 1967 entirely as a pre-emptive action. For that matter, Israel was the aggressor in the 1957 Suez Crisis.

join993
01-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Agree with Kimiko right now or feel the power of her sexyness :O

Kimiko
01-09-2009, 09:54 PM
Agree with Kimiko right now or feel the power of her sexyness :O

I'll bet they don't find my disagreeing with them a bit sexy. :)

BULLMASTIFF
01-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Who cares let them wipe eachother out, we need to stop helping other countries and worry about are own country and we wouldnt be in so much debt............end of story

join993
01-09-2009, 10:11 PM
Who cares let them wipe eachother out, we need to stop helping other countries and worry about are own country and we wouldnt be in so much debt............end of story

You're an asshole. Let's see how you would manage to live without any help from anyone at all.

But I do agree that USA shouldn't involve themselves as much in this conflict as they are. They should be sending peacekeeping troops there, not giving Israel weapons and money.

stumbler
01-09-2009, 10:21 PM
You're right about it not being a photo. I wish one's ability to edit one's post was not limited to 10 minutes.

However, it is true that the Palestinians like to shoot their rockets from behind schools, hospitals, and mosques. The Palestinians know that they are fighting a civilized enemy.

The Palestinians know they are fighting a civilized enemy you say? This says otherwise:


Killed between 80 to 100 Arabs, women and children. To kill the children they fractured their heads with sticks. There was not one house without corpses. The men and women of the villages were pushed into houses without food or water. Then the saboteurs came to dynamite the houses. One commander ordered a soldier to bring two women into a house he was about to blow up. . . . Another soldier prided himself upon having raped an Arab woman before shooting her to death. Another Arab woman with her newborn baby was made to clean the place for a couple of days, and then they shot her and the baby. Educated and well-mannered commanders who were considered "good guys". . . became base murderers, and this not in the storm of battle, but as a method of expulsion and extermination. The fewer the Arabs who remain, the better. (quoted in Davar, 9 June 1979)

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%201:%20Moshe%20Sharett%20and%20His%20Personal%20Diary

join993
01-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Yeah... What Stumbler said..

Also, I've heard more stories... Israels impaling Arabic prisoners just cause "They have no purpose just sitting in jail".

trumpet
01-09-2009, 10:39 PM
Whether the tales of direct barbarism by Israeli forces is true or not is possibly in question. The effects of Israeli government policy on the inhabitants of Gaza is not. Through their embargos, blockades, restrictions and enforcements the economy of Gaza is non-existent, food is in short supply, jobs are hard to come by, mortality rates are rising, particularly infant mortality rates, hospitals and doctors are poorly supplied to meet the needs of the population.

This is done simply by withholding the wherewithall to provide for the palestinian people. No need for firing rockets into Gaza to cause this misery and death.

And the Palestinians don't have this power over Israel, and the world doesn't take any notice until there are nice loud explosions for the evening news.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating violence on either side, but make no mistake, what the Israelis routinely do to the Palestinians is violence, whether it involves armed force or not. If you were Palestinian would this make you angry and violent towards israel or more willing to accept their right to your family's land?

Kimiko
01-09-2009, 11:15 PM
Well spoken, Trumpet...and I would again note that regardless of where you place blame, as a practical matter this conflict is not leading to anything remotely resembling a long-term solution. It's a blind alley, begetting only more hatred and more violence.

SeanHart
01-09-2009, 11:41 PM
No you don't. Every war between Israel and the Arab countries has been either started, or directly caused, by the Arabs. Usually, in fact, without even bothering to declare war but just launching an unprovoked attack out of nowhere.

First of all, there is only one Arab country and that's Saudia Arabia.

And this is not Israel v. Palestine, it's the Israeli military bombing civilians. It's not a war when only one army is involved, it's terrorism.

beninabox
01-10-2009, 12:02 AM
First of all, there is only one Arab country and that's Saudia Arabia.

And this is not Israel v. Palestine, it's the Israeli military bombing civilians. It's not a war when only one army is involved, it's terrorism.

Actually, it is Israel vs Hamas, the government of Palestine that has sworn to eridicate the State of Israel from the world. It was the constant stream of bombings and suicide bombers that prompted the blockade of Gaza and it was the firing of missiles from within Gaza that brought this response from Israel. Israel has every right to protect itself and the idea that their response has been disproportionate is foolish.

I find it discouraging that this issue can totally polarize this forum. It doesn't fill me with hope that there can be any peaceful resolution to this problem.

Distant Lover
01-10-2009, 12:33 AM
The Palestinians know they are fighting a civilized enemy you say? This says otherwise:
http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%201:%20Moshe%20Sharett%20and%20His%20Personal%20Diary


stumbler,

I read the link. The passage you quoted was disturbing to me. I like and respect both you, and Noam Chomsky, who wrote the forward for the link.

The conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis is a zero sum game that is intrinsically genocidal. Two nations want the same land. Two nations are willing to fight for the same land. Two nations are fully aware that they would be better off if the other nation did not exist. There is little to negotiate. The Israelis will not make concessions to those who want to annihilate them. The Palestinians prefer death to dishonor.

When the Jews returned to Palestine in the early twentieth century, they came as groups of immigrants do to the United States. They accepted what jobs they could find. When they acquired some money, or when they brought it with them, they bought land. They did not take it by force.

The Palestinians initiated violence against the Jewish immigrants, just as nativist Americans have often initiated violence against immigrants to the United States. Because the Jews were inadequately defended by the British occupiers, they fought back.

At the time of the UN Mandate of 1948, the Jews were in possession of land they bought and worked for. They lived in communities they built. The Arabs attacked them. The Jews, once again, fought back. Atrocities by Jews against the Palestinians need to be compared with atrocities by Palestinians and other Arabs, not only in Palestine, but throughout the Arab world.

Iraq had had a thriving Jewish presence ever since the Babylonian Captivity. Where is it now? The Jews that could not escape Iraq were killed. What happened to the Jews that were living in Egypt? Death. Violent death.

As an American and a Christian, I will say - I do not say "admit," because I am proud of it - that I love Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I try not to hate the Palestinians, but I do not love them. The Israelis remind me of myself, my friends, and my family. The Palestinians do not. I have read the Bible in seven English translations. As a Christian I see Jesus and his followers as Jews in a Jewish setting.

I have read the Koran in three English translations. I have also read the major religious writings of the other world's great religions. Of each of these writings, I find the Koran to be the least impressive.

This is my confession of faith. This is why I support Israel against her enemies. The Jews are my friends. Their enemies are not.

stumbler
01-10-2009, 03:58 AM
Actually, it is Israel vs Hamas, the government of Palestine that has sworn to eridicate the State of Israel from the world. It was the constant stream of bombings and suicide bombers that prompted the blockade of Gaza and it was the firing of missiles from within Gaza that brought this response from Israel. Israel has every right to protect itself and the idea that their response has been disproportionate is foolish.

I find it discouraging that this issue can totally polarize this forum. It doesn't fill me with hope that there can be any peaceful resolution to this problem.

One of the great advantages of these kinds of threads is it presents the opportunity to address misconceptions and falsehoods.

The official governing body of the Palestinian people is the Palestinian Authority. They are the officially recognized Palestinian leadership. And the Palestinian Authority has officially recognized Israel's right to exist and sought a peace agreement with Israel.

The bulk of the Palestinian people are concentrated in two areas known as the West Bank and Gaza. These areas have elected local governments and in Gaza Hamas became the democratically elected majority party. Hamas, is a relatively new organization which springs from the Muslim Brotherhood, and carries their religious doctrine of Jihad. Hamas has not recognized Israel's right to exist and terrorists within that party are the ones responsible for firing the rockets into Israel.

Hamas managed to gain power in Gaza for a couple of reasons. One is they were secretly initially funded by Israel to create a division within the PA. The other reason is because they became very popular by providing food, clothing, medical care and schools for the Palestinian people in Gaza which were distute after decades of Israeli persecution.

But Hamas still represents a minority of the Palestinian people not the majority who still want peace with Israel.


stumbler,

I read the link. The passage you quoted was disturbing to me. I like and respect both you, and Noam Chomsky, who wrote the forward for the link.

The conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis is a zero sum game that is intrinsically genocidal. Two nations want the same land. Two nations are willing to fight for the same land. Two nations are fully aware that they would be better off if the other nation did not exist. There is little to negotiate. The Israelis will not make concessions to those who want to annihilate them. The Palestinians prefer death to dishonor.

This is not true. There is only one nation Israel. And when Israel was created it was supposed to be a place for both Jews and the Palestinians. However, once the state of Israel was officially created they began an active campaign of terrorism and persecution to drive the Palestinians out of Israel. In that process they did take land that belonged to the Palestinians and have never compensated them for it. The Palestinians became refugees and have remained refugees for the past 60 years. The Palestinians were not even recognized as a people until the 1990's.


When the Jews returned to Palestine in the early twentieth century, they came as groups of immigrants do to the United States. They accepted what jobs they could find. When they acquired some money, or when they brought it with them, they bought land. They did not take it by force.

This is true and I do not dispute it.


The Palestinians initiated violence against the Jewish immigrants, just as nativist Americans have often initiated violence against immigrants to the United States. Because the Jews were inadequately defended by the British occupiers, they fought back.

I also agree with this historical view of what happened.


At the time of the UN Mandate of 1948, the Jews were in possession of land they bought and worked for. They lived in communities they built. The Arabs attacked them. The Jews, once again, fought back. Atrocities by Jews against the Palestinians need to be compared with atrocities by Palestinians and other Arabs, not only in Palestine, but throughout the Arab world.

I'm willing to look at atrocities committed by the Palestinians for comparison and would like you to post some of them.

But in the meantime I think you grossly underestimate what the GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL actually did. Here is one example from the Diary of Moshe Sharett.


Fearing that an overdose of Israeli violence at this moment might precipitate a crisis with the West, Sharett tried to block the Kibya reprisal operation which had been endorsed by Ben Gurion on the eve of his departure for a vacation preceding his formal retreat. He pointed out that the minor border incident, which was to have served as a pretext for the planned attack on the West Bank village, had just been publicly condemned by Jordan, and that the Jordanian representatives in the mixed armistice commission had promised to see to it that similar incidents would not be repeated.
I told Lavon that this [attack] will be a grave error, and recalled, citing various precedents, that it was never proved that reprisal actions serve their declared purpose. Lavon smiled ... and kept to his own idea.... Ben Gurion, he said, didn't share my view. (14 October 1953, 37)

According to the first news from the other side, thirty houses have been demolished in one village. This reprisal is unprecedented in its dimensions and in the offensive power used. I walked up and down in my room, helpless and utterly depressed by my feeling of impotence. . . . I was simply horrified by the description in Radio Ramallah's broadcast of the destruction of the Arab village- Tens of houses have been razed to the soil and tens of people killed. I can imagine the storm that will break out tomorrow in the Arab and Western capitals. (15 October 1953, 39)
I must underline that when I opposed the action I didn't even remotely suspect such a bloodbath. I thought that I was opposing one of those actions which have become a routine in the past. Had I even remotely suspected that such a massacre was to be held, I would have raised real hell. (16 October 1953, 44)

Now the army wants to know how we [the foreign ministry] are going to explain the issue. In a joint meeting of army and foreign ministry officials Shmuel Bendor suggested that we say that the army had no part in the operation, but that the inhabitants of the border villages, infuriated by previous incidents and seeking revenge, operated on their own. Such a version will make us appear ridiculous: any child would say that this was a military operation. (16 October 1953)

Yehoshafat Harkabi [then Assistant Chief of Military Intelligence] reported movements of Jordanian troops from Transjordan to the West Bank in two directions ... from Irbid to the Nablus region and from Amman to Jerusalem. I thought that these movements did not indicate preparations for attack but [were] only preparations for aggression on our side. It is impossible that they did not get the impression that the bombing of Kibya means, if not a calculated plan to cause war, then at least willingness to have one starting as a consequence of the action. "Fati" said that according to Radio Ramallah 56 bodies have already been extracted from the ruins. (17 October 1955, 44 45)

At 3 P.m. Russel [U.S. Charge d'At'faires] and Milton Fried [U.S. Attache] came in ... Russel's face was gloomy. Kibya was "in the air" . . . I said I will not say a word to justify the attack on Kibya but I must warn against detaching this action from a chain of events and I blamed the uncontrolled situation on the helplessness or the lack on goodwill on the part of Jordan. From that point onwards I attacked U.S. policy as one of the factors which contributed to the encouragement of the Arabs and the isolation of Israel.... I have condemned the folly of the [U.S.] idea that we want war and all our actions in the South and in the North are directed exclusively to bring it about.... Russel asked ... if we shall disavow Kibya. I said that I cannot answer.... Katriel ("Salmon") [Israel's military attache in London] came up with the idea of a "diversion": the Kibya affair would attract all the attention unless we are able to invent some other dramatic issue. (17 October 1953, 45)

[In the cabinet meeting] I condemned the Kibya affair that exposed us in front of the whole world as a gang of blood-suckers, capable of mass massacres regardless, it seems, of whether their actions may lead to war. I warned that this stain will stick to us and will not be washed away for many years to come. . . . It was decided that a communique on Kibya will be published and Ben Gurion [back from his vacation for the occasion] was to write it. I insisted on including an expression of regret. Ben Gurion insisted on excluding any responsibility of the army (See Appendix 1): the civilian citizens of the border areas, enraged by the constant murders, have taken justice into their hands. After all [he said] the border settlements are full of arms and the settlers are ex-soldiers.... I said that no one in the world will believe such a story and we shall only expose ourselves as liars. But I couldn't seriously demand that the communique explicitly affirm the army's responsibility because this would have made it impossible to condemn the act and we will have ended up approving this monstrous bloodbath. (18 October 1953, 51)
For Sharett as well, the army was irreproachable. But then why blame the army when the decision had been taken on a political level? Beyond this, however, emerges a significant detail. Clearly, the security of the Israeli border population could hardly be more jeopardized than by attributing to them the responsibility for a bloodbath such as Kibya's. Encouraging an escalation of acts of revenge and further reprisals clearly had a cynical provocative intent, as did Lavon's smile when Sharett tried to convince him of the fatuousness of the relations in relation to their declared purpose. From the beginning, in fact, the retaliation policy was headed elsewhere: the stronger the tensions in the region, the more demoralized the Arab populations and destabilized the Arab regimes, the stronger the pressures for the transfer of the concentrations of Palestinian refugees from places near the border away into the interior of the Arab world-and the better it was for the preparation of the next war. In the meantime, the army could be kept in training.
I also want to include what was the offical Israeli Government public response and explanation of Kibya because the explanation speaks directly to the kind of official version you give here and also to the depth of deception Israel is willing to go.



Ben Gurion's version of operation Kibya, broadcasted on Israeli Radio on 19 October 1953, as recorded by Davar, 20 October 1953.


( ... )The [Jewish] border settlers in Israel, mostly refugees, people from Arab countries and survivors from the Nazi concentration camps, have, for years, been the target of(. . .)murderous attacks and had shown a great restraint. Rightfully, they have demanded that their government protect their lives and the Israeli government gave them weapons and trained them to protect themselves.
But the armed forces from Transjordan did not stop their criminal acts, until [the people in] some of the border settlements lost their patience and after the murder of a mother and her two children in Yahud, they attacked, last week, the village of Kibya across the border, that was one of the main centers of the murderers' gangs. Every one of us regrets and suffers when blood is shed anywhere and nobody regrets more than the Israeli government the fact that innocent people were killed in the retaliation act in Kibya. But all the responsibility rests with the government of Transjordan that for many years tolerated and thus encouraged attacks of murder and robbery by armed powers in its country against the citizens of Israel.
The government of Israel strongly rejects the ridiculous and fantastic version, as if 600 soldiers participated [in the action] against Kibya. We had conducted a thorough check and found out that not even the smallest army unit was missing from its base on the night of the attack on Kibya.
http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html#CHAPTER%201:%20Moshe%20Sharett%20and%20His%20Personal%20Diary



]Iraq had had a thriving Jewish presence ever since the Babylonian Captivity. Where is it now? The Jews that could not escape Iraq were killed. What happened to the Jews that were living in Egypt? Death. Violent death.

This may be true but does it give Jews and especially Israel the right to persecute and murder Arabs in return?


As an American and a Christian, I will say - I do not say "admit," because I am proud of it - that I love Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I try not to hate the Palestinians, but I do not love them. The Israelis remind me of myself, my friends, and my family. The Palestinians do not. I have read the Bible in seven English translations. As a Christian I see Jesus and his followers as Jews in a Jewish setting.

This sounds like a polite justification for genocide to me.


I have read the Koran in three English translations. I have also read the major religious writings of the other world's great religions. Of each of these writings, I find the Koran to be the least impressive.

This is my confession of faith. This is why I support Israel against her enemies. The Jews are my friends. Their enemies are not.

This is exactly the blind faith I find most objectionable. But not against you personally. You are welcome to your faith and beliefs. But since I don't share it I don't think my tax dollars should be going to support it.

Dpm
01-10-2009, 04:05 AM
I AM NO FAN OF ISLAM ! In fact the only reason I know so much about Islam is I fear it (as have my ancestors for over a hundred years) and one thing I've learned in life is to know the enemy. I consider myself prejudice and have worked hard to learn about Islam and the Arab cultures in hopes to overcome my short comings. And in spite of all of this I still think what is happening to the INNOCENT PEOPLE of GAZA is wrong and in fact many War crimes have been committed. The OP has stated that he is a Zionist so I see where his one sided thinking comes from. I am a first generation American Greek and Islamic Turks held my homeland for many years and from that history I was cultured to detest Islam/Muslims, in fact I remember to this day my, Grandfather telling me Islam/Muslims were the Dragon and that we have knocked the Dragon down but we cannot kill it, I think that was his metaphor that Islam will never end. Now I have prefaced this so it will be clear, I have no sentimental feelings for radical Islam, but the fact remains "TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT" and what is taking place today in GAZA is without a doubt just plain wrong.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html

Israel Is Committing War Crimes
Hamas's violations are no justification for Israel's actions.

By GEORGE E. BISHARAT

Israel's current assault on the Gaza Strip cannot be justified by self-defense. Rather, it involves serious violations of international law, including war crimes. Senior Israeli political and military leaders may bear personal liability for their offenses, and they could be prosecuted by an international tribunal, or by nations practicing universal jurisdiction over grave international crimes. Hamas fighters have also violated the laws of warfare, but their misdeeds do not justify Israel's acts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/gaza-israelandthepalestinians1

Israelis admit militants not in UN school
Rory McCarthy
The Guardian, Thursday 8 January 2009

The UN said last night that the Israeli military had privately admitted that the shelling of a UN school in Jabaliya which killed more than 40 Palestinians on Tuesday was in response to militant fire from outside, not inside, the UN compound.

After the attack, the Israeli military said an initial inquiry had shown that several mortar shells had been fired at Israeli forces "from within the Jabaliya school" and that Israeli forces had returned fire.

trumpet
01-10-2009, 07:54 AM
I cant remember who but someone earlier inthis thread said that the 2 sides are so entrenched thatthis can only end by genocide one way or the other, or something to that effect. I don't think that's true. I think most people don't want to be killed or to kill unless they feel that they have no alternative. I'd just like to throw a few questions out there to see what thoughts they provoke?

Does anyone really think that Israel could successfully commit total genocide on all Palestinians? Further, would that actually end the conflict or would it encourage other muslim factions to take up arms against such an aggressor?

Does anyone think that th Palestinian paramilitaries would ever actually have the wherewithall to successfully prosecute a policy of genocide against the Jews? OK, let's restrict that to just the jews in Isael? And again, if they did do you think that would end the conflict?

Will shelling Gaza end the rocket attacks on Israel? We've seen offensives like this before and they do reduce the attacks for a short time but they always start again.

Will the high numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza increase or reduce the support amongst Palestinians for a faction that can then present itself as fighting back against the killers?

Why do you think that Hamas have been elected by the Palestinians in Gaza over less miltant groups?

Will the rocket attacks on Israel create sympathy for the Palestinians' plight amongst Israelis?

Would economic development, reduced unemployment and improved healthcare provision in Gaza increase or reduce the likelihood of young Palestinians joining Hamas Militias and being willing to kill Israelis?

If we can accept that the above military actions, on both sides are only going to make things worse then where do we go from here? It is surely clear that one side or the other needs to stop the killing. Who will be prepared to take the moral high ground? A democratically elected, US backed government with a huge army (relative to it's size) and a thriving economy, or a democratically elected militia group trying to run an impoverished Israeli prison camp called Gaza?

There are very few things that I would thank John Major for but he did do a lot of effective work in Northern Ireland. One of his main thrusts was to talk to any group that were willing to call and maintain a ceasefire. The effect of this was that moerate republican groups were brought to the negotiations and became representatives of their people, and more extreme elements were sidelined and made irrelevent. Eventually they either withered away or became more moderate, or just became lone voices who carry out occasional atrocities but find it really hard to find recruits.

Again, I'm not a massive fan but even Chirchill said "to jaw-jaw is always better than to war war."

join993
01-10-2009, 09:41 AM
Hmm... Trumpet you're a smart little fella... But let's not forget, as far as I know, no one civil in Palestine wants a war, those joining Hamas feel like they have no other option... They have to get free, or they're going to die! Now, I don't know if that's true, but I see why people will think that!! It's misery down there!

stumbler
01-10-2009, 02:47 PM
I cant remember who but someone earlier inthis thread said that the 2 sides are so entrenched thatthis can only end by genocide one way or the other, or something to that effect. I don't think that's true. I think most people don't want to be killed or to kill unless they feel that they have no alternative. I'd just like to throw a few questions out there to see what thoughts they provoke?

Does anyone really think that Israel could successfully commit total genocide on all Palestinians? Further, would that actually end the conflict or would it encourage other muslim factions to take up arms against such an aggressor?

Does anyone think that th Palestinian paramilitaries would ever actually have the wherewithall to successfully prosecute a policy of genocide against the Jews? OK, let's restrict that to just the jews in Isael? And again, if they did do you think that would end the conflict?

Will shelling Gaza end the rocket attacks on Israel? We've seen offensives like this before and they do reduce the attacks for a short time but they always start again.

Will the high numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza increase or reduce the support amongst Palestinians for a faction that can then present itself as fighting back against the killers?

Why do you think that Hamas have been elected by the Palestinians in Gaza over less miltant groups?

Will the rocket attacks on Israel create sympathy for the Palestinians' plight amongst Israelis?

Would economic development, reduced unemployment and improved healthcare provision in Gaza increase or reduce the likelihood of young Palestinians joining Hamas Militias and being willing to kill Israelis?

If we can accept that the above military actions, on both sides are only going to make things worse then where do we go from here? It is surely clear that one side or the other needs to stop the killing. Who will be prepared to take the moral high ground? A democratically elected, US backed government with a huge army (relative to it's size) and a thriving economy, or a democratically elected militia group trying to run an impoverished Israeli prison camp called Gaza?

There are very few things that I would thank John Major for but he did do a lot of effective work in Northern Ireland. One of his main thrusts was to talk to any group that were willing to call and maintain a ceasefire. The effect of this was that moerate republican groups were brought to the negotiations and became representatives of their people, and more extreme elements were sidelined and made irrelevent. Eventually they either withered away or became more moderate, or just became lone voices who carry out occasional atrocities but find it really hard to find recruits.

Again, I'm not a massive fan but even Chirchill said "to jaw-jaw is always better than to war war."

This is an exceptional interjection of logic in this discussion and issue Trumpet. It highlights a few things that are so important. Mainly that all this killing is for worse then nothing. It will ultimately only make the situation much worse.

You also hit on the real solution which is aid and economic development in Gaza and for all Palestinians. That is after all how Hamas came to power in the first place. By providing for the essential needs of people the rest of the world has turned their back on.

trumpet
01-10-2009, 03:42 PM
Thanks, Join and Stumbler, for your positive responses.

Can I just pre-empt what I expect will be the line of thought of many who cannot agree with my points, or who support Israel in their violent response to Hamas violence.

I may be wrong but I expect that I will be told that I would not be so restrained if I was in the firing line, or people I loved were being killed. I'd have to admit that being human, and a father, that's probably completely true.

That's kind of why juries and judges are screened to avoid people making difficult, life and death decisions, when they are emotionally involved in the issue. It makes sensefor decisions to be made with a clear head rather than through a veil of grief and anger and vengeance. It helps if the people making the decisions are not directly involved, but are objective about what is happening.

Now if no-one was going to throw that at me then I apologise for putting words in your mouths, but the point still stands.

stumbler
01-10-2009, 04:20 PM
Thanks, Join and Stumbler, for your positive responses.

Can I just pre-empt what I expect will be the line of thought of many who cannot agree with my points, or who support Israel in their violent response to Hamas violence.

I may be wrong but I expect that I will be told that I would not be so restrained if I was in the firing line, or people I loved were being killed. I'd have to admit that being human, and a father, that's probably completely true.

That's kind of why juries and judges are screened to avoid people making difficult, life and death decisions, when they are emotionally involved in the issue. It makes sensefor decisions to be made with a clear head rather than through a veil of grief and anger and vengeance. It helps if the people making the decisions are not directly involved, but are objective about what is happening.

Now if no-one was going to throw that at me then I apologise for putting words in your mouths, but the point still stands.

This is another vital point to this issue Trumpet and the reason I advocate for the rest of the world and especially the US to step in and take actions that force the two sides into a meaningful peaceful settlement.

As I have been saying for decades and often repeated on these threads. I'm willing to bet that if the US made any future economic and military aid to Israel contingent on reaching a peaceful and meaningful settlement with the Palestinians it would not take long for peace to break out.

And if it didn't. If Israel actually did negotiate a meaningful peace and stopped persecuting the Palestinian people and radical elements did continue to attack them then it would be up to the Palestinian people to stop that or Israel would be justified in taking military action.

But since Israel has refused to reach meaningful peaceful settlements with the Palestinians for the past 60 years that justification does not exist at the present time.

join993
01-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Also let's not forget, this conflict has been more or less on and off from the time of the Roman empire, it'll not be easy to negotiate a long and happy peace

stumbler
01-10-2009, 04:35 PM
Also let's not forget, this conflict has been more or less on and off from the time of the Roman empire, it'll not be easy to negotiate a long and happy peace

I really disagree with this position. I would point out that ancient rivalries also broke out following the collapse of the Soviet Union but once the international community stepped in Peace was established and has held.

trumpet
01-10-2009, 04:40 PM
Also let's not forget, this conflict has been more or less on and off from the time of the Roman empire, it'll not be easy to negotiate a long and happy peace


Sure there was rivalry but military conflict in modern times only took off following the Balfour Declaration, I believe, and most of the aggression was on the side of the Zionists at that stage.

Dpm
01-10-2009, 05:05 PM
Zionism:
The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained.


Einstein Letter Warning Of Zionist Fascism In Israel

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. SeveralAlbert Einstein Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants ? 240men, women, and children - and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

as taken from :
http://www.illuminati-news.com/einstein-letter=print.htm

Dpm
01-10-2009, 05:48 PM
see for yourselves:

billblondel344
01-10-2009, 07:23 PM
Well spoken, Trumpet...and I would again note that regardless of where you place blame, as a practical matter this conflict is not leading to anything remotely resembling a long-term solution. It's a blind alley, begetting only more hatred and more violence.


the same applies to Ireland, look how long the prods and cath's have been fighting. same shit as the jews and hamas. but the irish have been at it longer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:cool:

rcarson13@yahoo.com
01-11-2009, 05:12 PM
The situation in Ireland dates back a few hundred years. Israelite vs, Philistine/Palestinian 4000 years or so.

Distant Lover
01-11-2009, 05:21 PM
Zionism:
The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah blah.



Do you really expect anyone to read that long and turgid copy and paste job? :confused:

If you have something to say, say it in your own words. Otherwise, stop wasting bandwidth.

trumpet
01-11-2009, 05:57 PM
The situation in Ireland dates back a few hundred years. Israelite vs, Philistine/Palestinian 4000 years or so.

The parallel is still relevent. The situation is that there are 2 rival factions who are culturally conditioned to see the other faction as less worthy and subject to whatever measure they want to take to secure their own faction's position.

As I see it, the same approach could work in Israel/Palestine. Do you have another suggestion?

lor280465
01-11-2009, 06:01 PM
The parallel is still relevent. The situation is that there are 2 rival factions who are culturally conditioned to see the other faction as less worthy and subject to whatever measure they want to take to secure their own faction's position.

As I see it, the same approach could work in Israel/Palestine. Do you have another suggestion? And so the war go's on

trumpet
01-11-2009, 06:08 PM
And so the war go's on


As Ghandi said "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Dpm
01-11-2009, 06:34 PM
Do you really expect anyone to read that long and turgid copy and paste job? :confused:

If you have something to say, say it in your own words. Otherwise, stop wasting bandwidth.

But your so intelligent I thought for sure your attention span would be able to, seems to me you have no problem reading stumbler's postings of the like.

It really is a sorry thing for you isn't, it that stumbler is not gay because to me it seems that you would love to suck his dick.Your constant praise of him and yourself is evident that you have some fixation about him. While stumbler is an intelligent person there certainly to me is no comparison with you and he, you are bias short sighted and very limit in your ability to communicate.
I had taken off ignore in hopes that you had something remotely intelligent to say, well your very own words show otherwise. And am pretty sure you'll respond to this as your so easily stirred and feel the need to defend yourself.

Those were the words of Einstein about his own people, but then you wouldn't want to really learn something different the the one sided view to this problem now would you.

stumbler
01-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Do you really expect anyone to read that long and turgid copy and paste job? :confused:

If you have something to say, say it in your own words. Otherwise, stop wasting bandwidth.

I certainly read it and found the information important to the discussion of Israel and the Palestinians.

And what I really find to be a waste of bandwidth is simple repeating the same entrenched opinions and cherished notions with out the benefit of facts and documentation to back them up.

Its far to easy otherwise to remain purposefully ignorant of the reality of the situation in favor or carefully constructed myths and unreliable human emotions.

oldiegoody
01-11-2009, 07:43 PM
I'll leave the history of the region to you guys for now, only to say that from when I was young and gullible to now, my view of Israel has changed from positive to negative.
What Israel is ding now in Gaza will have repercussions for the non Zionist Jews throughout the wold for decades. Actions can no longer be hidden. The fatality statistics alone are terrible. As of this morning 5 or 6 Israelis dead and 800 Palestinians dead, half women and children, combined with the conditions in Gaza when the Israeli attacks began. Conditions brought about by blockades.
This "conflict" gives the Bousch's and the Whiteriders, and the rest of their neo nazi racist scumbags, ammunition to use against Jews in general. I foresee a terrible backlash against the rest of the worlds Jewish population and it really pisses me off. There are many of us who feel and have felt for a long time that Israel is and has been in the wrong, and yes it looks very much like Jewish fascism. With todays communication networks they can't hide that anymore.
Most people in the world link all Jews with Israel, and thats just not so, but it's hard to convince people otherwise.

Dpm
01-12-2009, 12:44 AM
I'll leave the history of the region to you guys for now, only to say that from when I was young and gullible to now, my view of Israel has changed from positive to negative.
What Israel is ding now in Gaza will have repercussions for the non Zionist Jews throughout the wold for decades. Actions can no longer be hidden. The fatality statistics alone are terrible. As of this morning 5 or 6 Israelis dead and 800 Palestinians dead, half women and children, combined with the conditions in Gaza when the Israeli attacks began. Conditions brought about by blockades.
This "conflict" gives the Bousch's and the Whiteriders, and the rest of their neo nazi racist scumbags, ammunition to use against Jews in general. I foresee a terrible backlash against the rest of the worlds Jewish population and it really pisses me off. There are many of us who feel and have felt for a long time that Israel is and has been in the wrong, and yes it looks very much like Jewish fascism. With todays communication networks they can't hide that anymore.
Most people in the world link all Jews with Israel, and thats just not so, but it's hard to convince people otherwise.

There are MANY moral and caring Jews, in fact Jews all over the world are speaking out just as you have here. Just as I have a hard time blaming the general American populace of the wrong doings of a government gone amuck, I can not fault Jews worldwide of the wrongdoings of the Israel government, I would further add as stumbler pointed out long ago in one of these threads the Israeli government is secular and is not representative of Jews as a whole.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 01:00 AM
There are MANY moral and caring Jews, in fact Jews all over the world are speaking out just as you have here. Just as I have a hard time blaming the general American populace of the wrong doings of a government gone amuck, I can not fault Jews worldwide of the wrongdoings of the Israel government, I would further add as stumbler pointed out long ago in one of these threads the Israeli government is secular and is not representative of Jews as a whole.

Many Jews sympathize with the Palestinians. How many Arabs have any sympathy with the Israelis?

Dpm
01-12-2009, 01:20 AM
Koran Supports Israel

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/06/03/koran-supports-israel.htm




WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS

http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html



What does the Koran say?
http://middleeastfacts.com/koran.php

Found these and many many other articles on this subject.


Sorry about the copy and paste I have no other method of transmitting the information in this format.

And I would like to reiterate I do not support terrorism of the part of any group whatsoever as a justifiable means to any end.

stumbler
01-12-2009, 01:36 AM
I'll leave the history of the region to you guys for now, only to say that from when I was young and gullible to now, my view of Israel has changed from positive to negative.
What Israel is ding now in Gaza will have repercussions for the non Zionist Jews throughout the wold for decades. Actions can no longer be hidden. The fatality statistics alone are terrible. As of this morning 5 or 6 Israelis dead and 800 Palestinians dead, half women and children, combined with the conditions in Gaza when the Israeli attacks began. Conditions brought about by blockades.
This "conflict" gives the Bousch's and the Whiteriders, and the rest of their neo nazi racist scumbags, ammunition to use against Jews in general. I foresee a terrible backlash against the rest of the worlds Jewish population and it really pisses me off. There are many of us who feel and have felt for a long time that Israel is and has been in the wrong, and yes it looks very much like Jewish fascism. With todays communication networks they can't hide that anymore.
Most people in the world link all Jews with Israel, and thats just not so, but it's hard to convince people otherwise.

This to me is an excellent post and something I think is very important to consider. Support for Israel is slipping and it will also be very easy to blame all Jews (just as we tend to blame all Muslims) for the atrocities.

Also I put up some recent polls showing support turning against Israel in this latest aggression and as Distant Lover pointed out one of those polls indicated 56% of Americans still say they support Israel. But what is really significant about that number is how far that support has dropped from the 70 to 85% of Americans who said they supported Israel just a few years ago.


Many Jews sympathize with the Palestinians. How many Arabs have any sympathy with the Israelis?

Lots of them and if you would take an objective look at this you would see that has always been the case. A large percentage of Palestinians supported the two state solution in 1948. For the past 60 years there have been Arab and Jewish voices calling for peaceful solutions. Many Jews and Muslims (especially Palestinians) have inter-married.

The whole problem with this situation is it has always been defined and conducted by the extremists on both sides. And the opinions and feelings of both the Israelis and the Palestinians have been carefully manipulated by their respective leaders who see personal gain in keeping the hatred flowing and the bullets and rockets flying.

That's one of the things the world can help resolve by stepping between the warring extremists and allowing common people on both sides a chance to stop the fighting long enough to allow sanity to return.

stumbler
01-12-2009, 03:51 AM
Here's another look at the Israeli/Gaza conflict from a surprising source. One that is recommending an economic boycott of Israel.

Enough. It's time for a boycott

The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa


Comments (592) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel?commentpage=1)



http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/06/02/naomi_klein_140x140.jpg (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/naomiklein)


Naomi Klein (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/naomiklein)
The Guardian, (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian) Saturday 10 January 2009
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel#history-byline)


It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa. In July 2005 a huge coalition of Palestinian groups laid out plans to do just that. They called on "people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era". The campaign Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions was born.
Every day that Israel pounds Gaza (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gaza) brings more converts to the BDS cause - even among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the anti-apartheid struggle. "The boycott on South Africa was effective, but Israel is handled with kid gloves ... This international backing must stop."
Yet even in the face of these clear calls, many of us still can't go there. The reasons are complex, emotional and understandable. But they simply aren't good enough. Economic sanctions are the most effective tool in the non-violent arsenal: surrendering them verges on active complicity. Here are the top four objections to the BDS strategy, followed by counter-arguments.
Punitive measures will alienate rather than persuade Israelis.
The world has tried what used to be called "constructive engagement". It has failed utterly. Since 2006 Israel has been steadily escalating its criminality: expanding settlements, launching an outrageous war against Lebanon, and imposing collective punishment on Gaza through the brutal blockade. Despite this escalation, Israel has not faced punitive measures - quite the opposite. The weapons and $3bn in annual aid the US sends Israel are only the beginning. Throughout this key period, Israel has enjoyed a dramatic improvement in its diplomatic, cultural and trade relations with a variety of other allies. For instance, in 2007 Israel became the first country outside Latin America to sign a free-trade deal with the Mercosur bloc. In the first nine months of 2008, Israeli exports to Canada went up 45%. A new deal with the EU is set to double Israel's exports of processed food. And in December European ministers "upgraded" the EU-Israel association agreement, a reward long sought by Jerusalem.
It is in this context that Israeli leaders started their latest war: confident they would face no meaningful costs. It is remarkable that over seven days of wartime trading, the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's flagship index actually went up 10.7%. When carrots don't work, sticks are needed.
Israel is not South Africa.
Of course it isn't. The relevance of the South African model is that it proves BDS tactics can be effective when weaker measures (protests, petitions, backroom lobbying) fail. And there are deeply distressing echoes of apartheid in the occupied territories: the colour-coded IDs and travel permits, the bulldozed homes and forced displacement, the settler-only roads. Ronnie Kasrils, a prominent South African politician, said the architecture of segregation he saw in the West Bank and Gaza was "infinitely worse than apartheid". That was in 2007, before Israel began its full-scale war against the open-air prison that is Gaza.
Why single out Israel when the US, Britain and other western countries do the same things in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the strategy should be tried is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work.
Boycotts sever communication; we need more dialogue, not less.
This one I'll answer with a personal story. For eight years, my books have been published in Israel by a commercial house called Babel. But when I published The Shock Doctrine, I wanted to respect the boycott. On the advice of BDS activists, including the wonderful writer John Berger, I contacted a small publisher called Andalus. Andalus is an activist press, deeply involved in the anti-occupation movement and the only Israeli publisher devoted exclusively to translating Arabic writing into Hebrew. We drafted a contract that guarantees that all proceeds go to Andalus's work, and none to me. I am boycotting the Israeli economy but not Israelis.
Our modest publishing plan required dozens of phone calls, emails and instant messages, stretching between Tel Aviv, Ramallah, Paris, Toronto and Gaza City. My point is this: as soon as you start a boycott strategy, dialogue grows dramatically. The argument that boycotts will cut us off from one another is particularly specious given the array of cheap information technologies at our fingertips. We are drowning in ways to rant at each other across national boundaries. No boycott can stop us.
Just about now, many a proud Zionist is gearing up for major point-scoring: don't I know that many of these very hi-tech toys come from Israeli research parks, world leaders in infotech? True enough, but not all of them. Several days into Israel's Gaza assault, Richard Ramsey, managing director of a British telecom specialising in voice-over-internet services, sent an email to the Israeli tech firm MobileMax: "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."
Ramsey says his decision wasn't political; he just didn't want to lose customers. "We can't afford to lose any of our clients," he explains, "so it was purely commercially defensive."
It was this kind of cold business calculation that led many companies to pull out of South Africa two decades ago. And it's precisely the kind of calculation that is our most realistic hope of bringing justice, so long denied, to Palestine.
A version of this column was published in the Nation (thenation.com (http://www.thenation.com/))
naomiklein.org (http://www.naomiklein.org/)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/naomi-klein-boycott-israel

Dpm
01-12-2009, 04:00 AM
Here's another look at the Israeli/Gaza conflict from a surprising source. One that is recommending an economic boycott of Israel.Interesting and insightful, thank you for this.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 06:32 AM
Here's another look at the Israeli/Gaza conflict from a surprising source. One that is recommending an economic boycott of Israel.
Enough. It's time for a boycott

The best way to end the bloody occupation is to target Israel with the kind of movement that ended apartheid in South Africa



I am going to make a point to buy something made in Israel. I cannot boycott Palestine, because the Palestinians produce nothing of value.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 06:55 AM
Koran Supports Israel
http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/06/03/koran-supports-israel.htm

WHAT THE QUR'AN REALLY SAYS

http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html
What does the Koran say?
http://middleeastfacts.com/koran.php



In the Koran Muhammad makes a few positive references to Israelites in the Old Testament, and to Jesus. Nevertheless, his knowledge of the Bible is not profound. It resembles the knowledge of an adult who has never read the Bible, but who remembers Bible stories from Sunday school classes he attended as a child. Although Muhammad claimed to be God's greatest prophet, he cannot name a single of the writing prophets in the Old Testament. That is because the theology of those prophets cannot be reduced to anecdotes that can be understood by a child.

Because I maintain the Muhammad wrote the Koran I would be killed in many Moslem countries, and in Gaza. Moslems believe that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammad. I have read the major writings of each of the world's great religions. I find the Koran to be the least impressive.

Dpm
01-12-2009, 11:05 AM
I wasn't asked about who or why the Q'uran was written, nor do I ask for anyone to approve of it. I was replying to the your comment/question on Muslims support/believe in Israel.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 11:59 AM
In the Koran Muhammad makes a few positive references to Israelites in the Old Testament, and to Jesus. Nevertheless, his knowledge of the Bible is not profound. It resembles the knowledge of an adult who has never read the Bible, but who remembers Bible stories from Sunday school classes he attended as a child. Although Muhammad claimed to be God's greatest prophet, he cannot name a single of the writing prophets in the Old Testament. That is because the theology of those prophets cannot be reduced to anecdotes that can be understood by a child.

Because I maintain the Muhammad wrote the Koran I would be killed in many Moslem countries, and in Gaza. Moslems believe that the Angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Muhammad. I have read the major writings of each of the world's great religions. I find the Koran to be the least impressive.

The point is not to "impress" you. I don't find the Bible very impressive. But Christians seem to.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 01:13 PM
The point is not to "impress" you. I don't find the Bible very impressive. But Christians seem to.

If Christianity and Judaism cease to be living religions, the Bible will continue to be regarded as great literature, in much the same way that the writings of Homer and the Greek tragic dramatists are, even though the Homeric pantheon on Mt. Olympus is no longer believed in and worshiped.

If Islam ceases to be a living religion, the Koran will only be of interest to scholarly specialists.

At least, the sacred writings of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and probably Hinduism and Shinto can be seen as anthologies of human wisdom in which great minds have pondered pressing and durable questions regarding the human predicament.

The message of the Koran is simple to the point of being trivial: Muhammad is God's greatest prophet. On every few pages readers are reminded that if they think otherwise, they are going to Hell. Similar passages in the New Testament are few, and lend themselves to other interpretations.

In the United States those on and to the left of the Democrat Party have become sympathetic to Arab culture. Nevertheless, everything they hate about the Bible Belt and the religious right is far more true of the Arab world, including Palestine, and conventional Islam. In the Arab world a gay rights movement is unthinkable. Women who are not virgins on their wedding nights are often killed by male relatives, even if they lost their virginity to rapists. Those who question any aspect of the Koran risk their lives.

deidre79
01-12-2009, 01:58 PM
I find atheists rather boring and snobbish. Enjoy your dirt nap. :) If you don't believe in anything, how can you even believe in yourself? Oh the score is
Israel 38 Hamas 7. :rose:.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 03:40 PM
If Christianity and Judaism cease to be living religions, the Bible will continue to be regarded as great literature, in much the same way that the writings of Homer and the Greek tragic dramatists are, even though the Homeric pantheon on Mt. Olympus is no longer believed in and worshiped.

If Islam ceases to be a living religion, the Koran will only be of interest to scholarly specialists.

At least, the sacred writings of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and probably Hinduism and Shinto can be seen as anthologies of human wisdom in which great minds have pondered pressing and durable questions regarding the human predicament.

The message of the Koran is simple to the point of being trivial: Muhammad is God's greatest prophet. On every few pages readers are reminded that if they think otherwise, they are going to Hell. Similar passages in the New Testament are few, and lend themselves to other interpretations.

In the United States those on and to the left of the Democrat Party have become sympathetic to Arab culture. Nevertheless, everything they hate about the Bible Belt and the religious right is far more true of the Arab world, including Palestine, and conventional Islam. In the Arab world a gay rights movement is unthinkable. Women who are not virgins on their wedding nights are often killed by male relatives, even if they lost their virginity to rapists. Those who question any aspect of the Koran risk their lives.

Do you honestly think you're anywhere close to being objective about this? Your attitude is so Christian-centric it's almost laughable. Do you think for even one moment that you'd harbor the views you do if you had been born in Baghdad?

Lest there be any doubt, I have no more sympathy for Islam than I do for Christianity. I just find your position to be incredibly culturally biased, and it doesn't appear that you can even see your bias for what it is.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 03:43 PM
I find atheists rather boring and snobbish. Enjoy your dirt nap. :) If you don't believe in anything, how can you even believe in yourself? Oh the score is
Israel 38 Hamas 7. :rose:.

That comment, about how if you don't believe in anything, how do you believe in yourself, is an obvious non sequitur. It does not follow.

I DO believe in myself, and therefore it's incorrect to say I don't believe in anything. But what you're really trying to say is that you have to believe in God in order to believe in yourself. That, too, is a non sequitur.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 04:00 PM
Do you honestly think you're anywhere close to being objective about this? Your attitude is so Christian-centric it's almost laughable. Do you think for even one moment that you'd harbor the views you do if you had been born in Baghdad?

Lest there be any doubt, I have no more sympathy for Islam than I do for Christianity. I just find your position to be incredibly culturally biased, and it doesn't appear that you can even see your bias for what it is.

I am an observant Christian, and proud of it. You bet I am biased in favor of Western culture.

Cultures are not equal. In Arab culture if a young man sees a young woman wearing revealing clothes, he does not whistle at her. He is more likely to throw acid at her face. Most people think the best way to go to Paradise is to blow up a school bus full of Israeli children. Rape victims are often punished more severely than rapists. In Africa, most Moslem women have their clitorises cut out so that they cannot experience sexual pleasure.

The Arab slave trade began centuries before the European slave trade. It continued for decades later until it was smashed by European military action. Arab slave owners castrated their male slaves. They also cut off the penises of black slaves. Many slaves were killed by that horrible practice.

In what respect is Arab culture superior to Western culture? The only reason Arabs have any significance is because some of them have oil under their sand. That oil was discovered by Westerners. It is drilled by technology invented in the West.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 04:22 PM
I wasn't asked about who or why the Q'uran was written, nor do I ask for anyone to approve of it. I was replying to the your comment/question on Muslims support/believe in Israel.

I would like some evidence that right now there are living Muslims who are concerned about the fact that ever since the foundation of Israel that nation has lived with the constant danger of annihilation. I would like some evidence that right now there are living Muslims who regret the fact that when modern Israel was established there were pogroms throughout the Arab world, that Jews in Arab countries lost everything they had, and often their lives.

deidre79
01-12-2009, 04:24 PM
That comment, about how if you don't believe in anything, how do you believe in yourself, is an obvious non sequitur. It does not follow.

I DO believe in myself, and therefore it's incorrect to say I don't believe in anything. But what you're really trying to say is that you have to believe in God in order to believe in yourself. That, too, is a non sequitur.

Why do you think I was talking about you? kind of pompous, don't ya think? :)

LORCO
01-12-2009, 05:28 PM
Hamas kills innocent civilians in the name of protecting their homeland. Israel kills innocent civilians in the name of protecting their homeland too.

PatronofPorn
01-12-2009, 05:32 PM
Why do you think I was talking about you? kind of pompous, don't ya think? :)

Because you made a generalization about a whole group. You didn't say I find SOME Atheists, you said you find ATHEISTS. So the way it was worded, made it seem you said that all Atheists are like that.

By the way, I am Atheist, and I know I am not boring or snobbish. :)

deidre79
01-12-2009, 05:35 PM
Please Patron, do not speak for me or try to explain my posts to others. Thanks :) You can believe in fairies for all I care. I would disagree.

PatronofPorn
01-12-2009, 05:40 PM
Please Patron, do not speak for me or try to explain my posts to others. Thanks :) You can believe in fairies for all I care. I would disagree.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth Deidre, it was just my view of how your post came off as sounding like, nothing more than that. Apologies.

sane_or_insane?
01-12-2009, 07:01 PM
I am not from the arab world nor am I considered to be from the western world also.

What I know for a fact is that killing innocent people is wrong and it has to be stopped at once it is always easy to point finger and say who is right and who is wrong it is also easy to pull up records in history to decide who is right and who is wrong but do all of you seriously think that all this will stop the killings?

The killings has to be stopped and to stop the killings people have to be rational and respect whatever religion others believe in. Christians think that the lord is the best and they badmouth Islam. Muslims think that westerners are bad people because they show off their bodies.

My view is if you don't like it walk away and keep your mouth shut nobody needs to hear stupid comments about what they believe in.

As long as no one provokes you why should you provoke them? In the case of Isreal attacking Hamas, Hamas fired rockets into Isreal but Isreal using their military strengths to blockade Gaza forced people in Gaza to join Hamas if the leaders of Isreal were clever enough they should help the people suffering in Gaza

Leaders in other Arab countries shouldn't have reacted against Isreal so harshly for attacking Gaza. It will just make the leaders and people in Isreal want to attack more because (if I am not wrong) Isreal is surrounded by Muslim countries. Just imagine if you were isreal and surrounded by a group of close friends shouting abuses at you would you not be afraid and want to fight till the end and try to scare the group off with your strengths?

If the world had shown concern for the people living in Gaza earlier before the blockades by Isreal took place and prevented Hamas from firing those rockets none of the events today would have taken place. The world just stood and watched while Isreal continued to bully the people in Gaza. (correct me if I am wrong) Non of the leaders in the Arab nations voiced out unhappiness when Hamas fired rockets into Isreal.

This is a two way traffic it takes two hand to clap America shouldn't be supporting Isreal now the Arab nations shouldn't be reprimanding Isreal now. If America wants to be the leader of all nations it has to be neutral in its standings forget the history and let bygones be bygones Use mass influence to stop the war in Gaza Once both sides sees that they have no support from anyone the war will stop.

Send in the peacekeepers, arrest the aggressors in both countries and bar them from politics let aid go into Gaza and educate the people. Its hard but if no one steps in and do something only more people will die.

Peacekeeping missions should only be done by a neutral party. It shouldn't be done by any country in the west or the Arab countries because like most of you here the personels will take sides.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 07:55 PM
Why do you think I was talking about you? kind of pompous, don't ya think? :)

I didn't think you were talking about me. You made a general comment, and I provided a general response.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 08:00 PM
I am an observant Christian, and proud of it. You bet I am biased in favor of Western culture.

Cultures are not equal. In Arab culture if a young man sees a young woman wearing revealing clothes, he does not whistle at her. He is more likely to throw acid at her face. Most people think the best way to go to Paradise is to blow up a school bus full of Israeli children. Rape victims are often punished more severely than rapists. In Africa, most Moslem women have their clitorises cut out so that they cannot experience sexual pleasure.

The Arab slave trade began centuries before the European slave trade. It continued for decades later until it was smashed by European military action. Arab slave owners castrated their male slaves. They also cut off the penises of black slaves. Many slaves were killed by that horrible practice.

In what respect is Arab culture superior to Western culture? The only reason Arabs have any significance is because some of them have oil under their sand. That oil was discovered by Westerners. It is drilled by technology invented in the West.

As long as you agree that you aren't objective....

If I come across as defending Arab or Islamic culture, it's because people like you continue to try to demonize them, and I find that sort of bigotry unacceptable.

And by the way, Christians condoned human slavery for centuries. The Bible treats it quite sympathetically. There's not even a commandment against it.

sane_or_insane?
01-12-2009, 08:01 PM
I didn't think you were talking about me. You made a general comment, and I provided a general response.

girl fight???
I thought we were talking about Isreal and Hamas...

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 08:04 PM
girl fight???
I thought we were talking about Isreal and Hamas...

*shrug* She made a comment that I felt could not be allowed to go unchallenged.

And now, back to our regular programming.

deidre79
01-12-2009, 10:50 PM
she? :excited: excuse me Kimiko. I did not know you were so special. Oh the final score is Israel 42 Hamas 10. I find all of your comments unacceptable Kimiko. Take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere. I can "shrug" also at the thought of you.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 11:02 PM
Wow...you sure told me off. :)

But I think I'll stay for awhile longer.

chunky
01-12-2009, 11:13 PM
Come on you guys, stop flirting.

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Come on you guys, stop flirting.

I am not flirting. I am fighting in order to attract the attention of the most beautiful deidre79. :)

chunky
01-12-2009, 11:22 PM
I am not flirting. I am fighting in order to attract the attention of the most beautiful deidre79. :)

Best of luck with that mate.

Kimiko
01-12-2009, 11:30 PM
Best of luck with that mate.

:eek:

Distant Lover
01-12-2009, 11:34 PM
Best of luck with that mate.

Thank you. :)

deidre79
01-13-2009, 12:18 AM
Kimiko :eek: ....... I did didn't I. Thank You

Wafarer
01-13-2009, 01:43 AM
Whew! What an exhausting read of this thread...however, some good points about history, some have clearly had good studies.
Some funny flaming, girl fight, too, thanks folks.
Like I have posted before, it seems that with all the alleged(and proven?) attrocities committed by both governments and war leaders(terrorists duly elected) things have become academic, in terms of sheer numbers, and degree of dishonourable practices.
Does anything go in war?, sometimes yes, sadly.
We need peacekeepers, but they would be deployed after a truce is made, and sticks.
It seems like 30 years of reading and trying to understand the mindset of decades old battles has left me with the same view.
Nevetheless some important and useful things can be learned by all of us, I think.

On a `non sequitorial matter', to my experience most atheists have very strong belief in themselves, aguably more than some `reiligious' people, because God is not in charge...they are. This has proven to be problematic with those that are too egoistic.
Carry on, I am listening:)

AZRIEL
01-13-2009, 02:08 AM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/12/soccerisrael.jpg

stumbler
01-13-2009, 03:21 AM
I would like some evidence that right now there are living Muslims who are concerned about the fact that ever since the foundation of Israel that nation has lived with the constant danger of annihilation. I would like some evidence that right now there are living Muslims who regret the fact that when modern Israel was established there were pogroms throughout the Arab world, that Jews in Arab countries lost everything they had, and often their lives.


Here ya go DL

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtStEng.jhtml?itemNo=1051604&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&title=%27Report:%20Iranian%20newspaper%20closed%20over%20article%20sympathetic%20to%20Israel%20%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E%27&dyn_server=172.20.5.5

http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/189665/israel_plans_to_court_europes_moderate_muslims/

http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000262.html

PS I've already proven to you that Israel living with the constant danger of annihilation is a myth. Why do you keep trying to propagate it.

deidre79
01-13-2009, 03:44 AM
Why do you all make this more sinister than it really is? The clash of ideologies is nothing new. Please choose a side if you have not already. This whole political correctness crap makes me sick. I have no sympathy for Islamic nations or fundamentalists much less terrorists. Have a good day. :)

stumbler
01-13-2009, 03:56 AM
Why do you all make this more sinister than it really is? The clash of ideologies is nothing new. Please choose a side if you have not already. This whole political correctness crap makes me sick. I have no sympathy for Islamic nations or fundamentalists much less terrorists. Have a good day. :)

Deidre, why do you insist of making such an utter ignorant fool of yourself on these threads. You've got shit for brains, nothing in your head but what your mommy and daddy put there when they raised you in closet and even an idiot would catch on by now that you don't have the intellectual capacity for these kinds of discussion.

Go play with pictures some more.

deidre79
01-13-2009, 04:02 AM
I can't even respond to your immaturity Stumbler. Keep on apologizing for America, I laugh in your face. :excited:

stumbler
01-13-2009, 04:04 AM
I can't even respond to your immaturity Stumbler. Keep on apologizing for America, I laugh in your face. :excited:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

deidre79
01-13-2009, 04:08 AM
:excited:

beninabox
01-13-2009, 04:39 AM
An interesting opinion from The Globe and Mail in Toronto:


A setback for Israel, a calamity for the Palestinians


It is often said of the Palestinians that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The events in Gaza are a tragic vindication of that aphorism.
In 2005, after much agonizing, Israel withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza Strip, dismantling its military bases, pulling out its soldiers and evicting all Israeli settlers after 38 years of occupation. It was a historic moment in more ways than one.
Israel was surrendering land captured in the 1967 Six-Day War, and it was doing so without any prior peace accord such as the land-for-peace deal with Egypt over the surrender of the Sinai Peninsula.
The pullout signalled a sea change in Israeli attitudes. After decades of conflict with their immediate neighbours, the Palestinians, Israelis were eager for an end to it all. Even the hardest of hard-liners, Ariel Sharon, had come around to the view that it was time to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories, pull back to defensible borders and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves, even if that meant the emergence of a Palestinian state that the Israeli right had resisted for so long.
The opportunity for the Palestinians was clear. If their leaders could maintain a minimum of order in Gaza and prevent it from becoming a base for attacks on the Jewish state, Israel would gain the confidence to take the next step: withdrawal from the West Bank, home to the majority of Palestinians. As Mr. Sharon said at the time, "it is the Palestinians' turn." Gaza was to be the proving ground for the future Palestinian state. The withdrawal was a trial of their willingness and ability to become responsible neighbours.
They have failed with flying colours. Rockets from Gaza have been raining on Israel from the start. Almost as soon as the Israelis pulled out, Palestinian clans and political factions fell to fighting among themselves. A civil war broke out pitting Fatah, the traditional leadership group, against the more militant Hamas. After winning Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, Hamas seized control of Gaza in June of 2007.
This was what Israeli rightists and settlers had warned would happen: Handed over to the Palestinians, a pistol-shaped Gaza would become a deadly weapon pointed straight at the heart of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu stalked out of the cabinet over the Gaza pullout, predicting that it would become a "huge base for terror." And so it has become. In 2005, not even the most wild-eyed zealot could have penned a scenario for Gaza as grim as what has actually taken place.
As much as that is a setback for Israel, it is a calamity for the Palestinians. If their leaders had behaved with more wisdom, they could have had their state by now, in both the West Bank and Gaza. When Israel pulled out three years ago, international donors and Palestinian exiles were queuing up to finance new roads, ports and factories. There was talk of railway lines, a rebuilt international airport and a thriving agriculture industry. Instead, Gaza remains what it's been for years: a miserable ghetto, producing nothing but extremism and hopelessness.
Much as Israelis (still) want the conflict to be over, they have lost whatever small confidence they had that the Palestinians might be tolerable neighbours. The idea of pulling out of the West Bank, only to see it become another, bigger base for terror, now seems unthinkable. Mr. Netanyahu, head of the Likud party, could return to office in next month's election on a tough program.
Israel began its current operation against militants in Gaza not with any relish, but out of despair at Palestinian failure. It knew full well that such an assault would cause angry protests in the Arab world, harsh words at the United Nations and civilian casualties that would make it look brutish in the eyes of the world. What's worse, it knew it might take all this abuse without, in the end, achieving its main goal of stopping rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. But the transformation of Gaza into a militant launching pad left it no choice but to react firmly, or face losing power to deter attacks against the Israeli homeland.
With separate Palestinian factions in charge in the West Bank and Gaza, one weak, the other shot through with hate, what is the alternative? The idea of talks leading to a Palestinian state living in peace beside Israel now seems as far fetched as at any time in years.
There is one remaining hope: that Palestinians see the disaster their leaders have wrought in Gaza and choose another course. That seems unlikely now that they are under attack, and the natural reaction is to rally around the green flag of Hamas. But maybe, just maybe, after the current violence is over, they will think again. The only way for Palestinians to get a state is to build one. The place to start is Gaza.

Distant Lover
01-13-2009, 07:21 AM
Here ya go DL

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtStEng.jhtml?itemNo=1051604&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&title=%27Report:%20Iranian%20newspaper%20closed%20over%20article%20sympathetic%20to%20Israel%20%3Cbr%3E%3Cbr%3E%27&dyn_server=172.20.5.5

http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/189665/israel_plans_to_court_europes_moderate_muslims/

http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000262.html



From your first link I learned that a newspaper in Iran was closed because it ran one single article sympathetic to Israel. I also learned that a student organization in Iran asked the Iranian government to authorize suicide bombing in Israel.

From your second link I learned that Israel is trying to court Europe's "moderate Moslems." It did not say that any of these moderates existed, however.

From your third link I learned that a journalist in Bangladesh faced death for advocating a less hostile stand toward Israel.

I am sorry, but if this is the best you can do to find evidence of Moslems sympathetic to Israel, it is not very good. Out of one billion Moslems it does not surprise me that several are sympathetic to Israel. Unfortunately, they can not open their mouths without risking their lives.

Distant Lover
01-13-2009, 07:26 AM
PS I've already proven to you that Israel living with the constant danger of annihilation is a myth. Why do you keep trying to propagate it.

Because it is not a myth. If Israel had lost the wars of 1948, 1967, or 1973 Israel would not exist.

Israel exists because the Arabs are not good at war. They love war, but Western armies defeat their armies with little effort. They are good at terrorism, however. That's all they're good at.

Distant Lover
01-13-2009, 07:31 AM
Deidre, why do you insist of making such an utter ignorant fool of yourself on these threads. You've got shit for brains, nothing in your head but what your mommy and daddy put there when they raised you in closet and even an idiot would catch on by now that you don't have the intellectual capacity for these kinds of discussion.

Go play with pictures some more.

You cannot convince someone by insulting her. Nor can you impress someone who is undecided on the issue.

I am used to this kind of obscene flaming from a right wing nut case, of whom there are many on internet forums. I expect better from you, stumbler.

Distant Lover
01-13-2009, 07:34 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

Our verdict is that deidre79 is not guilty.

sane_or_insane?
01-13-2009, 07:53 AM
You cannot convince someone by insulting her. Nor can you impress someone who is undecided on the issue.

I am used to this kind of obscene flaming from a right wing nut case, of whom there are many on internet forums. I expect better from you, stumbler.

It is always hard to change someone's thinking this topic is very sensitive and everyone no matter supporting Isreal or Hamas will feel that they are right. It is frustrating to try and convince another person to think the same way as you think this is the reason why there are conflicts this is also the reason why we are unique.

It will not benefit anyone if either side wipes out the other. I suppose we all agree on this issue. Kimiko was wise enough not to further prolong the hostile situation here with deidre79 and we should respect strumbler for what he has to say about deidre79.

I seriously do not favour taking sides in the Isreal Hamas situation revanage only begets more killings when will people ever learn?

Distant Lover
01-13-2009, 07:57 AM
we should respect strumbler for what he has to say

I have expressed my respect for stumbler on several occasions. I do not like to see him descend to the level of a wingnut.

deidre79
01-13-2009, 08:05 AM
It is always hard to change someone's thinking this topic is very sensitive and everyone no matter supporting Isreal or Hamas will feel that they are right. It is frustrating to try and convince another person to think the same way as you think this is the reason why there are conflicts this is also the reason why we are unique.

It will not benefit anyone if either side wipes out the other. I suppose we all agree on this issue. Kimiko was wise enough not to further prolong the hostile situation here with deidre79 and we should respect strumbler for what he has to say about deidre79.

I seriously do not favour taking sides in the Isreal Hamas situation revanage only begets more killings when will people ever learn?


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-finger007.gif

Dpm
01-13-2009, 08:39 AM
You two should start a comedy act, DL you could be a knockoff of Tommy Smothers & D you could be Gracie Allen.

http://www.magicimage.com/images/headers/tommysmothers.jpg http://www.nndb.com/people/551/000056383/gracie1-sized.jpg

deidre79
01-13-2009, 08:42 AM
Dpm? it's the trifecta!

Dpm
01-13-2009, 08:50 AM
איזה בדיחה

deidre79
01-13-2009, 08:53 AM
D,K,S >http://sk1.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/2cf6be22d423d490 (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S020rxY2xJucAAlr.JzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBqNzhwMWg1BHBvcwMzMARzZWMDc3IEdnRpZAM-/SIG=1m7rsm7hg/EXP=1231926641/**http%3A//images.search.yahoo.com/images/view%3Fback=http%253A%252F%252Fimages.search.yahoo.com%252Fsearch%252Fimages%253Fp%253Dthe%252Bthree%252Bstooges%2526ei%253DUTF-8%2526fr%253Dyfp-t-501-s%2526fr2%253Dtab-web%2526xargs%253D0%2526pstart%253D1%2526b%253D21%2526ni%253D20%26w=350%26h=274%26imgurl=artfiles.art.com%252Fimages%252F-%252FThe-Three-Stooges-Poster-Card-C10204625.jpeg%26rurl=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.art.com%252Fasp%252Fsp-asp%252F_%252Fpd--10204625%252Fsp--A%252FThe_Three_Stooges.htm%26size=18.4kB%26name=The-Three-Stooges-Poster-Card-C10204625.jpeg%26p=the%2Bthree%2Bstooges%26type=JPG%26oid=2cf6be22d423d490%26no=30%26tt=38,939%26sigr=128d8c266%26sigi=126cacr0t%26sigb=140hmssu4)

PatronofPorn
01-13-2009, 08:56 AM
.

PatronofPorn
01-13-2009, 11:51 PM
You cannot convince someone by insulting her. Nor can you impress someone who is undecided on the issue.

I am used to this kind of obscene flaming from a right wing nut case, of whom there are many on internet forums. I expect better from you, stumbler.

.

billblondel344
01-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Hamas kills innocent civilians in the name of protecting their homeland. Israel kills innocent civilians in the name of protecting their homeland too.


just nuke the bastards and put 2 monkeys in the gaza strip and let them repopulate.................................................................................................:cool:

stumbler
01-14-2009, 12:11 AM
An interesting opinion from The Globe and Mail in Toronto:


A setback for Israel, a calamity for the Palestinians


It is often said of the Palestinians that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The events in Gaza are a tragic vindication of that aphorism.
In 2005, after much agonizing, Israel withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza Strip, dismantling its military bases, pulling out its soldiers and evicting all Israeli settlers after 38 years of occupation. It was a historic moment in more ways than one.
Israel was surrendering land captured in the 1967 Six-Day War, and it was doing so without any prior peace accord such as the land-for-peace deal with Egypt over the surrender of the Sinai Peninsula.
The pullout signalled a sea change in Israeli attitudes. After decades of conflict with their immediate neighbours, the Palestinians, Israelis were eager for an end to it all. Even the hardest of hard-liners, Ariel Sharon, had come around to the view that it was time to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories, pull back to defensible borders and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves, even if that meant the emergence of a Palestinian state that the Israeli right had resisted for so long.
The opportunity for the Palestinians was clear. If their leaders could maintain a minimum of order in Gaza and prevent it from becoming a base for attacks on the Jewish state, Israel would gain the confidence to take the next step: withdrawal from the West Bank, home to the majority of Palestinians. As Mr. Sharon said at the time, "it is the Palestinians' turn." Gaza was to be the proving ground for the future Palestinian state. The withdrawal was a trial of their willingness and ability to become responsible neighbours.
They have failed with flying colours. Rockets from Gaza have been raining on Israel from the start. Almost as soon as the Israelis pulled out, Palestinian clans and political factions fell to fighting among themselves. A civil war broke out pitting Fatah, the traditional leadership group, against the more militant Hamas. After winning Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, Hamas seized control of Gaza in June of 2007.
This was what Israeli rightists and settlers had warned would happen: Handed over to the Palestinians, a pistol-shaped Gaza would become a deadly weapon pointed straight at the heart of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu stalked out of the cabinet over the Gaza pullout, predicting that it would become a "huge base for terror." And so it has become. In 2005, not even the most wild-eyed zealot could have penned a scenario for Gaza as grim as what has actually taken place.
As much as that is a setback for Israel, it is a calamity for the Palestinians. If their leaders had behaved with more wisdom, they could have had their state by now, in both the West Bank and Gaza. When Israel pulled out three years ago, international donors and Palestinian exiles were queuing up to finance new roads, ports and factories. There was talk of railway lines, a rebuilt international airport and a thriving agriculture industry. Instead, Gaza remains what it's been for years: a miserable ghetto, producing nothing but extremism and hopelessness.
Much as Israelis (still) want the conflict to be over, they have lost whatever small confidence they had that the Palestinians might be tolerable neighbours. The idea of pulling out of the West Bank, only to see it become another, bigger base for terror, now seems unthinkable. Mr. Netanyahu, head of the Likud party, could return to office in next month's election on a tough program.
Israel began its current operation against militants in Gaza not with any relish, but out of despair at Palestinian failure. It knew full well that such an assault would cause angry protests in the Arab world, harsh words at the United Nations and civilian casualties that would make it look brutish in the eyes of the world. What's worse, it knew it might take all this abuse without, in the end, achieving its main goal of stopping rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. But the transformation of Gaza into a militant launching pad left it no choice but to react firmly, or face losing power to deter attacks against the Israeli homeland.
With separate Palestinian factions in charge in the West Bank and Gaza, one weak, the other shot through with hate, what is the alternative? The idea of talks leading to a Palestinian state living in peace beside Israel now seems as far fetched as at any time in years.
There is one remaining hope: that Palestinians see the disaster their leaders have wrought in Gaza and choose another course. That seems unlikely now that they are under attack, and the natural reaction is to rally around the green flag of Hamas. But maybe, just maybe, after the current violence is over, they will think again. The only way for Palestinians to get a state is to build one. The place to start is Gaza.

Well now this is a very nice story but it leaves out some essential parts as most pro-Israeli propaganda does.

It neglects to mention that Israel dosen't need soldiers or settlers to control Gaza because they control the land and sea access points and the air space. It neglects to mention that many in the international community including the UN still consider Israel to be in control of Gaza and thus an occupying force that it subject to humanitarian laws which they have consistently violated. It also neglects to mention that Gaza has been compaed to one huge concentration camp due to the actions of the part of Israel.


From your first link I learned that a newspaper in Iran was closed because it ran one single article sympathetic to Israel. I also learned that a student organization in Iran asked the Iranian government to authorize suicide bombing in Israel.

From your second link I learned that Israel is trying to court Europe's "moderate Moslems." It did not say that any of these moderates existed, however.

From your third link I learned that a journalist in Bangladesh faced death for advocating a less hostile stand toward Israel.

I am sorry, but if this is the best you can do to find evidence of Moslems sympathetic to Israel, it is not very good. Out of one billion Moslems it does not surprise me that several are sympathetic to Israel. Unfortunately, they can not open their mouths without risking their lives.

DL I knew in advance that you would not accept any sources that go against you entrenched dogma and cherished notions but I remind you that what you said was show you any source and that I did.


Because it is not a myth. If Israel had lost the wars of 1948, 1967, or 1973 Israel would not exist.

Israel exists because the Arabs are not good at war. They love war, but Western armies defeat their armies with little effort. They are good at terrorism, however. That's all they're good at.

There was no possible way Israel was going to lose those wars and that is why they took careful steps to one; create the myth that Israel was in danger and two; carefully provoke both those wars knowing in advance they had vastly superior military equipment and strength.


You cannot convince someone by insulting her. Nor can you impress someone who is undecided on the issue.

I am used to this kind of obscene flaming from a right wing nut case, of whom there are many on internet forums. I expect better from you, stumbler.

I'm not trying to convince that air headed little snake of anything DL. I was just pointing out the obvious that she does not possess the mental capabilities to understand let alone contribute to one of these discussions.

And don't expect anything from me. What you see is what you got.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 12:38 AM
just nuke the bastards and put 2 monkeys in the gaza strip and let them repopulate.................................................................................................:cool:


A++

deidre79
01-14-2009, 12:41 AM
I'm not trying to convince that air headed little snake of anything DL. I was just pointing out the obvious that she does not possess the mental capabilities to understand let alone contribute to one of these discussions.

And don't expect anything from me. What you see is what you got.[/quote]


You might be the most immature 57 year old I have ever met. Uneducated and stupid? how did you manage that Mumbler?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/161228954_50774c4eab_m.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/stoneth/161228954/)

Distant Lover
01-14-2009, 02:21 AM
There was no possible way Israel was going to lose those wars and that is why they took careful steps to one; create the myth that Israel was in danger and two; carefully provoke both those wars knowing in advance they had vastly superior military equipment and strength.


The Israelis were greatly outnumbered in the wars of 1948, 1967, 1973. In the war of 1948 the Israelis built their military from scratch. They fought several established Arab armies. In the wars of 1967 and 1973 the Arabs were supplied by the Soviet Union, whose weapons were comparable to the weapons we supplied the Israelis with.

If there was no possible way the Israelis were going to lose these wars, that is a credit to their military proficiency. The Jews excel not only intellectually, but on the battlefield. I am not Jewish, or I would not say that, but everyone knows it is true.

The Arabs love war. Fortunately, they are not good at it. They only excel in terrorist attacks on civilian targets. The only reason they have any significance is because some of them have oil.

stumbler
01-14-2009, 02:54 AM
The Israelis were greatly outnumbered in the wars of 1948, 1967, 1973. In the war of 1948 the Israelis built their military from scratch. They fought several established Arab armies. In the wars of 1967 and 1973 the Arabs were supplied by the Soviet Union, whose weapons were comparable to the weapons we supplied the Israelis with.

If there was no possible way the Israelis were going to lose these wars, that is a credit to their military proficiency. The Jews excel not only intellectually, but on the battlefield. I am not Jewish, or I would not say that, but everyone knows it is true.

The Arabs love war. Fortunately, they are not good at it. They only excel in terrorist attacks on civilian targets. The only reason they have any significance is because some of them have oil.

You speak strictly from bias towards Israel and prejudice against Arabs but the facts speak otherwise. Israel was created in a region already in rebellion against western occupation and has always enjoyed the backing of the west.

But I have long thought and even more so today that if Israel is really that great then Israel can get along just fine with out US economic and military aid.

Do you agree?

stumbler
01-14-2009, 02:56 AM
I'm not trying to convince that air headed little snake of anything DL. I was just pointing out the obvious that she does not possess the mental capabilities to understand let alone contribute to one of these discussions.

And don't expect anything from me. What you see is what you got.


You might be the most immature 57 year old I have ever met. Uneducated and stupid? how did you manage that Mumbler?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/161228954_50774c4eab_m.jpg (http://flickr.com/photos/stoneth/161228954/)[/quote]

That must be your boyfriend Deidre and I bet he cheats on you.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 03:12 AM
Economic boycott of Israel? that is fucking brilliant! You feel sorry for the Palestinians? who cares! They bring everything onto themselves anyway! I support Israel wholeheartedly in their crackdown on scumbags. Mumbler, all you do is apologize and try to see "all sides" because you can sympathize? Fuck you and fuck Islam. Mohammed really is a pig who needs to be slaughtered by the sword of Christianity.

http://www.hyscience.com/photos/death.jpg

stumbler
01-14-2009, 04:12 AM
Economic boycott of Israel? that is fucking brilliant! You feel sorry for the Palestinians? who cares! They bring everything onto themselves anyway! I support Israel wholeheartedly in their crackdown on scumbags. Mumbler, all you do is apologize and try to see "all sides" because you can sympathize? Fuck you and fuck Islam. Mohammed really is a pig who needs to be slaughtered by the sword of Christianity.

http://www.hyscience.com/photos/death.jpg


The economic boycott is the response of a lot of people who are sickened by the continued treatment of the Palestinian People at the hands of Israel. It is exactly the kind of thing that worked to end Apartheid in South Africa. And the endorsement of it I posted was an article written by a fairly prominent Jewish writer. And yes I do think it was a fairly brilliant endorsement of a good idea.

But of course I wouldn't expect a racist little pig like yourself to be able to comprehend that.

And yes I do feel sorry for the innocent women and kids that are dying as I write this. I feel sorry for all the senseless killing and suffering in the world and see no reason for it. That's one of the things that make most "Christians" hypocrites in my eyes because they don't seem to feel sorry or even remorseful for the slaughter they support.

So yes I care.

And its so easy for the blindly ignorant to believe that the Palestinians have brought everything onto themselves and wholeheartedly and just as blindly support them.

So in this instance ignorance, racism and prejudice surely is bliss. But that don't make it right.

Of course ditto heads would also use something as short sighted and stupid as trying to claim that anyone concerned with world events and the United States' hand in the slaughter of innocent people is apologizing. For what? I'll bet you can't find one statement of mine that resembles an apology.

That's why I've repeatedly said you lack the necessary mental capacity to actually discuss an issue like this because you only THINK you know the cliches and ignorance someone else has put into your head. That's not thinking that's parroting like a mindless bird.

Trying to see all sides, gathering information and processing it, studying issues and then coming to your own conclusions is what amounts to thinking. And yes if you really do any thinking you might actually come to feel some sympathy as opposed to being a frigid hearted fool.

And that would be some 19 year-old snake that thinks bringing on the prophecies of Armageddon is a good idea, and that Jesus Christ stood for the slaughter of innocents and just loved racist little snakes that advocate for it.

So non-fuck you Deidre, you mindless little spoiled brat, manipulating pig. You're a dime a dozen out there and I can't tell you how disgusted I am with my own dick for knowing that.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 04:19 AM
Get away you sick fuck! take your sorry ass opinions to Kimiko or whoever else is willing to believe your asnine garbage you spew all over the boards. Typical Democrat weak minded mother fucker!

stumbler
01-14-2009, 04:29 AM
Get away you sick fuck! take your sorry ass opinions to Kimiko or whoever else is willing to believe your asnine garbage you spew all over the boards. Typical Democrat weak minded mother fucker!

Who are you going to take your boney ass to Deidre. Distant Lover? Joe Dirty? Bousch? White Rider? They've all expressed an interest in you and you'd match up fine with them from what I can see.

But in the meantime I'll be around watching you make a fool of yourself. Picking up on your friendless and frightened existence, seeing your empty headedness and knowing in advance what a worthless, wasted, bitter and lonely existence you're headed for.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 04:35 AM
Mumbler, please tell the forum why a 57 year old loser like you likes to call women names on a porn forum? At least they are real men unlike you. You are the joke on this forum don't fool yourself.

beninabox
01-14-2009, 04:40 AM
sorry for the cut and paste. didn't have a copy of the link.

"Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'"
by Alan M. Dershowitz (from the Wall Street Journal, January 2, 2009)

Israel's actions in Gaza are justified under international law, and Israel should be commended for its self-defense against terrorism. Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. The only limitation international law places on a democracy is that its actions must satisfy the principle of proportionality.

Since Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets designed to kill civilians into southern Israel. The residents of Sderot--which have borne the brunt of the attacks--have approximately 15 seconds from launch time to run into a shelter. Although deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, terrorists firing at Sderot are so proud of their actions that they sign their weapons.

When Barack Obama visited Sderot this summer and saw the remnants of these rockets, he reacted by saying that if his two daughters were exposed to rocket attacks in their home, he would do everything in his power to stop such attacks. He understands how the terrorists exploit the morality of democracies.

In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house.

Hamas knew that Israel would never fire at a home with civilians in it. They also knew that if Israeli authorities did not learn there were civilians in the house and fired on it, Hamas would win a public relations victory by displaying the dead. Israel held its fire. The Hamas rockets that were protected by the human shields were then used against Israeli civilians.

These despicable tactics--targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians--can only work against moral democracies that care deeply about minimizing civilian casualties. They never work against amoral nations such as Russia, whose military has few inhibitions against killing civilians among whom enemy combatants are hiding.

The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality--by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets--is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killing of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian.

Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. This is illustrated by what happened on Tuesday, when a Hamas rocket hit a kindergarten in Be'er Sheva, though no students were there at the time. Under international law, Israel is not required to allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives.

While Israel installs warning systems and builds shelters, Hamas refuses to do so, precisely because it wants to maximize the number of Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by Israel's military actions. Hamas knows from experience that even a small number of innocent Palestinian individuals killed inadvertently will result in bitter condemnation of Israel by many in the international community.

Israel understands this as well. It goes to enormous lengths to reduce the number of civilian casualties--even to the point of foregoing legitimate targets that are too close to civilians.

Until the world recognizes that Hamas is committing three war crimes--targeting Israeli civilians, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations--and that Israel is acting in self-defense and out of military necessity, the conflict will continue.

stumbler
01-14-2009, 05:02 AM
sorry for the cut and paste. didn't have a copy of the link.

"Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'"
by Alan M. Dershowitz (from the Wall Street Journal, January 2, 2009)

Israel's actions in Gaza are justified under international law, and Israel should be commended for its self-defense against terrorism. Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. The only limitation international law places on a democracy is that its actions must satisfy the principle of proportionality.

Since Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets designed to kill civilians into southern Israel. The residents of Sderot--which have borne the brunt of the attacks--have approximately 15 seconds from launch time to run into a shelter. Although deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, terrorists firing at Sderot are so proud of their actions that they sign their weapons.

When Barack Obama visited Sderot this summer and saw the remnants of these rockets, he reacted by saying that if his two daughters were exposed to rocket attacks in their home, he would do everything in his power to stop such attacks. He understands how the terrorists exploit the morality of democracies.

In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house.

Hamas knew that Israel would never fire at a home with civilians in it. They also knew that if Israeli authorities did not learn there were civilians in the house and fired on it, Hamas would win a public relations victory by displaying the dead. Israel held its fire. The Hamas rockets that were protected by the human shields were then used against Israeli civilians.

These despicable tactics--targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians--can only work against moral democracies that care deeply about minimizing civilian casualties. They never work against amoral nations such as Russia, whose military has few inhibitions against killing civilians among whom enemy combatants are hiding.

The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality--by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets--is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killing of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian.

Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. This is illustrated by what happened on Tuesday, when a Hamas rocket hit a kindergarten in Be'er Sheva, though no students were there at the time. Under international law, Israel is not required to allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives.

While Israel installs warning systems and builds shelters, Hamas refuses to do so, precisely because it wants to maximize the number of Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by Israel's military actions. Hamas knows from experience that even a small number of innocent Palestinian individuals killed inadvertently will result in bitter condemnation of Israel by many in the international community.

Israel understands this as well. It goes to enormous lengths to reduce the number of civilian casualties--even to the point of foregoing legitimate targets that are too close to civilians.

Until the world recognizes that Hamas is committing three war crimes--targeting Israeli civilians, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations--and that Israel is acting in self-defense and out of military necessity, the conflict will continue.

Here, let me provide you with a few links that dispute this position.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/17/AR2006111701769.html

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-01-12-voa54.cfm

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/11/20081118232525803162.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1974389.stm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/09/content_10627005.htm

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/07/1002050/ukrainian-ombudsman-israel-violating-international-law

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885911457&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I think I can find a few dozen more if you want to look at them.

stumbler
01-14-2009, 05:05 AM
Mumbler, please tell the forum why a 57 year old loser like you likes to call women names on a porn forum? At least they are real men unlike you. You are the joke on this forum don't fool yourself.

Got a question for you Deidre. What would you know about real men or real women for that matter?

Once again I rest my case.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 05:12 AM
More than you jerkoff, pathetic you are Mumbler stumbling your way through life.

stumbler
01-14-2009, 05:19 AM
More than you jerkoff, pathetic you are Mumbler stumbling your way through life.

Hey Deidre, I think JoeDirty is online right now. Maybe if you hurry you can catch him.

deidre79
01-14-2009, 06:10 AM
The economic boycott is the response of a lot of people who are sickened by the continued treatment of the Palestinian People at the hands of Israel. It is exactly the kind of thing that worked to end Apartheid in South Africa. And the endorsement of it I posted was an article written by a fairly prominent Jewish writer. And yes I do think it was a fairly brilliant endorsement of a good idea.

I am sickened by Arabic governments and Islamic ideology. Yes South Africa is so much better off being run by the locals, white people made that nation.

But of course I wouldn't expect a racist little pig like yourself to be able to comprehend that.

I rest my case

And yes I do feel sorry for the innocent women and kids that are dying as I write this. I feel sorry for all the senseless killing and suffering in the world and see no reason for it. That's one of the things that make most "Christians" hypocrites in my eyes because they don't seem to feel sorry or even remorseful for the slaughter they support.

Who doesn't feel sorry them stupid ass, blame their governments, not US. yes let's apologize for all the wrongs in the world like democrats always do. What's next? Slave reparations? Go blow your hero. The United States always tries to help other nations become free of the constraints of dictators. Ask the real citizens of these rogue nations if they want our help and they always say yes.

So yes I care.....Fuck You

And its so easy for the blindly ignorant to believe that the Palestinians have brought everything onto themselves and wholeheartedly and just as blindly support them.

You obviously support them, I don't.

So in this instance ignorance, racism and prejudice surely is bliss. But that don't make it right.

Have you ever studied history? Might always makes right and that fact will never change however wrong it may be. Go visit Dorothy please.

Of course ditto heads would also use something as short sighted and stupid as trying to claim that anyone concerned with world events and the United States' hand in the slaughter of innocent people is apologizing. For what? I'll bet you can't find one statement of mine that resembles an apology.

Innocents have been slaughtered since the beginning of time. You are not going to stop it. The United States slaughtering people? that is apologizing, cry me a river poor baby.

That's why I've repeatedly said you lack the necessary mental capacity to actually discuss an issue like this because you only THINK you know the cliches and ignorance someone else has put into your head. That's not thinking that's parroting like a mindless bird.

Mumbler i will put my education, common sense and IQ up against yours anyday. You show your grade school cirriculum whenever you spit on the forum and you always repeat that slant so I think you might be the budgie.

Trying to see all sides, gathering information and processing it, studying issues and then coming to your own conclusions is what amounts to thinking. And yes if you really do any thinking you might actually come to feel some sympathy as opposed to being a frigid hearted fool.

Geez, did you get that out of the dictionary? Everyone on this forum does that I hope and it is you who cannot accept this fact when others fail to see your ignorance. Go over there and help them if you are so concerned, you would fit in nicely.

And that would be some 19 year-old snake that thinks bringing on the prophecies of Armageddon is a good idea, and that Jesus Christ stood for the slaughter of innocents and just loved racist little snakes that advocate for it.

What prophecies? Believing in America and our way of life instead of theirs? you are damn right I do! Racist little 19 year old snake? I rest my case.

So non-fuck you Deidre, you mindless little spoiled brat, manipulating pig. You're a dime a dozen out there and I can't tell you how disgusted I am with my own dick for knowing that.

Thank you you little spineless wimp. Go fuck yourself if you have not done so already.

Lookn4awillin1
01-14-2009, 06:34 AM
God bless Israel and may every Arab have his 70 virgins.;)

Distant Lover
01-14-2009, 08:02 AM
God bless Israel and may every Arab have his 70 virgins.;)

I think it is 73 virgins. Some people think that is a mistranslation, and that it is really 73 raisins. When asked about the 73 virgins Muhammed Ali said, "One would tire you out."

I have read the Koran three times, and I do not remember anything anything about 73 virgins. There are houris. These are heavenly virgins, but they are public property, and they stay virgins. All one can do is look at them.

I'll agree with the "God bless Israel" part. Now let's see if I can get back to sleep.

Kimiko
01-14-2009, 10:34 AM
I think it is 73 virgins. Some people think that is a mistranslation, and that it is really 73 raisins. When asked about the 73 virgins Muhammed Ali said, "One would tire you out."

I have read the Koran three times, and I do not remember anything anything about 73 virgins. There are houris. These are heavenly virgins, but they are public property, and they stay virgins. All one can do is look at them.

I'll agree with the "God bless Israel" part. Now let's see if I can get back to sleep.

Correction: you read a book that purported to be an English translation of the Koran three times.

drugToma
01-14-2009, 10:58 AM
VIVA RUSSIA and SLOVENIAN UNION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NATO u blato!!!!!!!!!!

Dpm
01-14-2009, 12:33 PM
You really are funny, you've read the Q'uran 3 times yet you've repeatedly have spelled "Muslim" wrong and what your personal an obvious interpretation is says nothing about what Islam is, I've read it once and I had everything I could do to hold myself though to the end and it's also totally laughable that you'd think yourself an authority on Islam when Muslims themselves study it for years and do not. At any rate am just going to stop looking at this thread you response to people here clearly show You've nothing to learn or share with others so whats the point or this. And your defending D is once again pathetic, she can hold her own without you and if am wrong about that she doesn't belong in this forum.

I find this to be so ironic, it speaks to your thinking on Hitler :


He was too stubborn. He rejected facts he did not want to believe in. He choose advisers who told him what he wanted to believe, even when they knew it was not true. They knew he would fire them otherwise.

You've repeatedly spoke of you respect and admiration for stumbler, and for the most part I'd agree,but here's the thing when someone I think is intelligent and that I respect, shows me where I am wrong I certainly take that into consideration. Further you have shown yourself to be deeply rooted in your prejudices and this only proves one thing, you lack any sibilance of intelligents. Your clinging to you bigotry as spout how only your way is the right way is also ironic that it also is much like Hitler. I'll close with making the suggestion you should read about what was done to the Jews in Warsaw, I'd hold that just maybe, yes maybe you could bring yourself to see in some small way, similarities and the treatment of those poor entrapped people of Gaza. Bye now am done in this thread and any thread that deals with the abhorrently war crimes of Israel to the people of Gaza, as you and others like you have nothing to learn you said so yourself so there is no point. Your a bousch in sheep's clothing.

Distant Lover
01-14-2009, 02:58 PM
You really are funny, you've read the Q'uran 3 times yet you've repeatedly have spelled "Muslim" wrong and what your personal an obvious interpretation is says nothing about what Islam is...

Further you have shown yourself to be deeply rooted in your prejudices and this only proves one thing, you lack any sibilance of intelligents. Your clinging to you bigotry as spout how only your way is the right way.

"Moslem" is an acceptable spelling. It is found my copies of Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus, and Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.

Just because I have studied the Koran does not mean that I have the obligation to be impressed with it. Quite honestly I found it disappointing. I like to think that I can enter empathetically into another way of thinking. This was not the case with the Koran.

I do appreciate the fact that Moslems worship the same God of the Jews and Christians, although they perceive of him differently. Psalms 22: 27 predicts: "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee." When we add the numbers of Jews, Christians, and Moslems in the world, we see that this is currently true for half the world's population.

I also appreciate the fact that Islamic culture is more successful than Christian culture in controlling crime and vice, and in reducing illegitimacy. A growing body of evidence in the United States - where the illegitimacy rate has grown from 6% in 1960 to about 30% now - indicates that children raised to adulthood by both biological parents living together in matrimony tend to do much better in life than children raised in other situations, even when other conditions are held constant.

stumbler
01-15-2009, 02:16 AM
I am sickened by Arabic governments and Islamic ideology. Yes South Africa is so much better off being run by the locals, white people made that nation.

Tell me about South Africa Deidre? Is South Africa better or worse off now for ending Apartheid? Do you think South Africa should have continued their system of Apartheid? How did the "white" people build South Africa?


Who doesn't feel sorry them stupid ass, blame their governments, not US. yes let's apologize for all the wrongs in the world like democrats always do. What's next? Slave reparations? Go blow your hero. The United States always tries to help other nations become free of the constraints of dictators. Ask the real citizens of these rogue nations if they want our help and they always say yes.

Who doesn't feel sorry for the innocent women and children that are dying in Gaza at this moment. You don't. Remember when you said:


You feel sorry for the Palestinians? who cares! They bring everything onto themselves anyway!

Right there in one breath you say you don't care and they brought it all on themselves and now are fool enough to pretend like you do. And caring about innocent people dying is not the same as apologizing for it although I do admit I think its time for the US to stop supporting it.

And so what else did Rush Limbaugh say today Deidre. Because all you've really have here is empty rhetoric spewing from an otherwise empty head.

But here's you chance to prove me wrong Deidre Dear. Tell me about these other nations that have asked the US to free them of the constraints of dictators. Name them and tell me what the circumstances were. And also tell me what citizens of rogue nations we have asked it they wanted out help and they said yes?

Now if you can enlighten me about what you've said here I might have to take back what I said about you being empty headed. But you need to do it quickly because you are acting like its something you already know.


You obviously support them, I don't.


Ok so tell me about the history of Israel and the Palestinian people Deidre? Tell me everything you know up to this point in time.


Have you ever studied history? Might always makes right and that fact will never change however wrong it may be. Go visit Dorothy please.

Yes I've studied history enought to know that "might makes right" is one of the pillars of communism but I didn't know until now that you're a communist Deidre.

But here again you can enlighten me. Show me for example where the United States believes strickly that might makes right? Give me some examples.


Innocents have been slaughtered since the beginning of time. You are not going to stop it. The United States slaughtering people? that is apologizing, cry me a river poor baby.

Does that mean we as human beings shouldn't try to stop it? How about God fearing Christians? Shouldn't they try to stop the slaughter of innocents. But you still haven't shown me where I have apologized.

Why don't you go ahead and try to do that now Deidre?


Mumbler i will put my education, common sense and IQ up against yours anyday. You show your grade school cirriculum whenever you spit on the forum and you always repeat that slant so I think you might be the budgie.

Well then let's see you do that Deidre; today is any day. Answer my questions. Tell me all you know of the history of the Middle East. Name those nations you are talking about. Tell me how white people built South Africa without the black people.

Tell me what's the difference between what was known as Apartheid in South Africa is different than what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank.

In other words Deidre, its time you put up of shut up.


Geez, did you get that out of the dictionary? Everyone on this forum does that I hope and it is you who cannot accept this fact when others fail to see your ignorance. Go over there and help them if you are so concerned, you would fit in nicely.

I don't think everyone on the forum studies history and issues takes the information and synthesize it and form objective conclusions based on facts.

But you seem to be contending that you do, so show me Deidre. Lay out the facts that I fail to see. Show me my ignorance. Because if you don't you're everything I said you were.


What prophecies? Believing in America and our way of life instead of theirs? you are damn right I do! Racist little 19 year old snake? I rest my case.

That's not what you said Deidre. You said:


Fuck you and fuck Islam. Mohammed really is a pig who needs to be slaughtered by the sword of Christianity.

Isn't that the way the world is supposed to end according to Revelation? Isn't Armageddon supposed to happen in the Middle East? Wouldn't that destroy our way of life and bring on the end of the world?

And Deidre if you rest your case now you lose your case so I think you better be able to defend yourself. Otherwise you are going to prove me right with your own words.


Thank you you little spineless wimp. Go fuck yourself if you have not done so already

Deidre I assure you that being called names by the likes of you does not bother me in the slightest. I think I can demonstrate why I called you those names and believe I can make them stick. You are what I said you are.

But once again here is your chance to redeem yourself and prove me wrong.

I'll be waiting for that Deidre.

deidre79
01-15-2009, 03:22 AM
Why should I bother Stumbler? I never said apartheid was something to glorify? just the opposite. Please tell me what any African nation has ever done for themselves? tell me? British and Dutch settlers built that nation much like Australia or even the US. Now look at it, it really is a zoo. Do you really think i am so cold hearted as to wish death upon innocent civilians? I blame the governments of these nations who keep their citizens in bondage. I rather dislike Rush so why the reference? Have i ever even mentioned his sorry name before? Other nations that have asked for help? Where do I start? WWI WWII, start there. Vietnam, Kuwait, Tiawan, Tibet....Tell you everything I know? mmm maybe later. The modern state of Israel was founded in 1948 to give WWII Jewish refugees a homeland. The Palestinians have lived in that area for centuries also but not until WWI were they recognized as Palestinians. They will never make peace, dream all you want. Might makes right applies to all forms of power or governments and to show weakness means defeat. You should read the book "Art of War" by Sun Tzu, you might learn something about human nature. I believe everyone on this forum has the capacity to form their own opinions and believe whatever they want. Why should I care? I have better things to do than to tell people how to think. Sincerest apologies for the name calling but I try to treat others the way they treat me. Have a nice day :)

stumbler
01-15-2009, 05:17 AM
Why should I bother Stumbler? I never said apartheid was something to glorify? just the opposite.

No what you said was:


Yes South Africa is so much better off being run by the locals, white people made that nation.

Did you really mean that? In what way is South Africa so much better off? And if so why wouldn't Israel and the Palestinians be better off if Israel stopped their Apartheid like control of Gaza and the West Bank?

I think you're contradicting yourself here Deidre.


Please tell me what any African nation has ever done for themselves? tell me?

You mean after they stopped being occupied and controlled by European Nations that colonized them? You do realize of course that when we look at most African nations today they have only been in existence for a very short time and they started a severe disadvantages because they were divided up without any thought to geographical boundaries or ethnic groups. In fact in most cases within those nations the ruling Europeans used the minority ethnic group to control the majority ethnic group. That caused a great deal of ethnic strife which has been boiling over for the past few decades.

But certainly you realize that despite the horrendous atrocities and attempted genocide in places like Rwanda for example they have managed to put that behind them and live in peace. Which of course proves it is possible for other groups like the Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace also.

And deidre there are successful African countries. In fact there are 52 different nations but you apparently just base your racist opinion on the relatively few trouble spots.


Well British and Dutch settlers built that nation much like Australia or even the US. Now look at it, it really is a zoo.

See that's what I thought. Due to your racist ideology you are contradicting yourself saying on one hand Apartheid was good, then bad and now good again. The truth is that like most all African nations South Africa was built on the exploitation of two resources. Natural resources and human resources in the form of natives to do the actual work.

But you never answered my question. Has South Africa really suffered economically and culturally since ending Apartheid?

And the British and the Dutch and the US and all the other imperialist nations that colonized and exploited Africa have seen the error of their ways and they are errors just like what is happening in the Middle East today.

Shouldn't Israel and the US see those errors for what they are?


Do you really think i am so cold hearted as to wish death upon innocent civilians?

Yes I do, because you have said so.


I blame the governments of these nations who keep their citizens in bondage.

No you only blame the Arab and Palestinian governments while you cheer Israel on.


I rather dislike Rush so why the reference? Have i ever even mentioned his sorry name before?

Then who do you listen to that claims all Democrats are apologists? Because that's actually not true and I have challenged you to point out where I apologized and you obviously can't.


Other nations that have asked for help? Where do I start? WWI WWII, start there. Vietnam, Kuwait, Tiawan, Tibet....

No, now what you said Deidre was:


The United States always tries to help other nations become free of the constraints of dictators. Ask the real citizens of these rogue nations if they want our help and they always say yes.

That was not the case in World War I or II. Vietnam did not ask for our help. The US interceded and placed a dictator in Power that eventually led to civil war. Kuwait, asked for your help but not to free them from Saddam Husein's invasion but we left their "dictator" (the royal family) in power Just like we do Saudi Arabia. We did the same thing in Taiwan that we did in Vietnam. Backed a non-communist leader. But in the cases of both Taiwan and Tibet when they asked for our help they didn't get. So I think you need to come up with some better examples than these.


Tell you everything I know? mmm maybe later.

I'll be right here.


The modern state of Israel was founded in 1948 to give WWII Jewish refugees a homeland. The Palestinians have lived in that area for centuries also but not until WWI were they recognized as Palestinians.

What set off the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians? Has it always just been the Palestinians that have resorted to terrorism? Did Israel ever do anything to the Palestinians other then treat them fairly? And are you sure the Palestinians were recognized after World War I. I didn't think the Palestinians were officially recognized until 1994. Show me your sources.


They will never make peace, dream all you want.

Has there ever been two warring factions that never made peace. Can you give me some examples.


Might makes right applies to all forms of power or governments and to show weakness means defeat.

No I'm afraid that is only communist governments. Democracies like ours believes the end does not justify the means. And that the rule of law not might is what must be followed. They also believe that even the weakest have rights.

Frankly Deidre you don't seem like a very good American to me.


You should read the book "Art of War" by Sun Tzu, you might learn something about human nature.

Why don't you tell me about Art of War. I admit I've never read it and am not likely to so why don't you tell me what its about and quote me some of the things you think are important to this discussion.


I believe everyone on this forum has the capacity to form their own opinions and believe whatever they want.

Oh I definitely agree that everyone has the capacity to form their own opinions and believe what ever they want but that's not what I really said now is it? What I said was being open minded and objective enough to actually learn and research and then base those opinions and conclusions on the facts. You see that is quite a bit different then just having an opinion and believing whatever you want. Which is what I believe you do.


but I don't think all of them do that

Me either and you would be one of those in my opinion.


Why should I care?

I think you've already pretty much established that you don't care for anything other then your own egocentric and ethnocentric dogma. But the real question is if you don't really care then why do you insist of spouting off on these kinds of issues and discussions.

Again you obviously are contradicting yourself here.


I have better things to do than to tell people how to think.

Then by all means to some of those things.

But in the meantime is discussing things and presenting facts and challenging other people's opinion really trying to tell them how to think. I don't think it is. I think its exchanging information and debating issues on their merits.


Sincerest apologies for the name calling but I try to treat others the way they treat me.

Then you might as well keep it up because I not only meant the things I said I meant the way I said them.


Have a nice day :)

Perhaps tomorrow. Its bedtime now which just reinforces my belief that you're too stupid to know the difference between day and night.

So goodnight Deidre and I'll be looking forward to your response tomorrow.

Distant Lover
01-15-2009, 06:21 AM
Tell me about South Africa Deidre? Is South Africa better or worse off now for ending Apartheid?


Apartheid came to an end in 1994. What has happened to the crime rate and the median income adjusted for inflation for blacks since? Those are honest questions. I have not been able to find information about that on the internet.

There can be no doubt that since the end of the white minority government in Rhodesia the standard of living for blacks there has declined.

deidre79
01-15-2009, 07:01 AM
Did you really mean that? In what way is South Africa so much better off? And if so why wouldn't Israel and the Palestinians be better off if Israel stopped their Apartheid like control of Gaza and the West Bank?

I think you're contradicting yourself here Deidre.

Whatever, South Africa would not be the same without the Europeans. Apartheid was rightly ended but you cannot say that country is better off now. Ever since it ended the defeated locals want everything they did not work for or build, infrastructure, land, and money? Israel does what it does to survive, wouldn't you? I put all the blame on Hamas and certain Palestinian groups. How can you not? No one to blame but themselves. This conflict can be summed up in one picture........
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Temple_mount.JPG/300px-Temple_mount.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Temple_mount.JPG)

You mean after they stopped being occupied and controlled by European Nations that colonized them? You do realize of course that when we look at most African nations today they have only been in existence for a very short time and they started a severe disadvantages because they were divided up without any thought to geographical boundaries or ethnic groups. In fact in most cases within those nations the ruling Europeans used the minority ethnic group to control the majority ethnic group. That caused a great deal of ethnic strife which has been boiling over for the past few decades.

But certainly you realize that despite the horrendous atrocities and attempted genocide in places like Rwanda for example they have managed to put that behind them and live in peace. Which of course proves it is possible for other groups like the Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace also.And deidre there are successful African countries. In fact there are 52 different nations but you apparently just base your racist opinion on the relatively few trouble spots.


Every nation has been colonized at one point in time or another. Could it be the fact they are just stupid still acting in their tribal ways commiting genocide on each other? Again, sad. You never named a country or gave me an example? Why did they not colonize the earth instead of the whites? Tell me?


See that's what I thought. Due to your racist ideology you are contradicting yourself saying on one hand Apartheid was good, then bad and now good again. The truth is that like most all African nations South Africa was built on the exploitation of two resources. Natural resources and human resources in the form of natives to do the actual work.But you never answered my question. Has South Africa really suffered economically and culturally since ending Apartheid?And the British and the Dutch and the US and all the other imperialist nations that colonized and exploited Africa have seen the error of their ways and they are errors just like what is happening in the Middle East today.

Shouldn't Israel and the US see those errors for what they are?


Every country is built on human and natural resources so I don't see why they are so special? Yes it has gone to hell just like the rest of Africa, do some research. Errors of their ways? That is how the world works. Do you think the current configuration of the world map will be the same in 50 years? 100? how about a thousand?


Originally Posted by deidre79
Do you really think i am so cold hearted as to wish death upon innocent civilians?

Yes I do, because you have said so.


If you say so........it must be true. I have? we all die




No you only blame the Arab and Palestinian governments while you cheer Israel on.


Of course I do because Israel represents my way of life. Arabs don't. How stupid are you really? Islamic fundamentalists believe the entire world should follow strict Islamic teachings or die by their hand? No thank you. Welcome to WWIII.



Then who do you listen to that claims all Democrats are apologists? Because that's actually not true and I have challenged you to point out where I apologized and you obviously can't.


For the simple fact that you give justification to enemies of the West and the United States. You cannot choose a side can you? You must sympathize with all wrongs in the world and see that they are righted as you see fit. pixie dust...I cannot and will not communicate with such a prick anymore.

You are so mature, thanks for the apology :rose:At least I tried to be nice

Kimiko
01-15-2009, 12:58 PM
Apartheid came to an end in 1994. What has happened to the crime rate and the median income adjusted for inflation for blacks since? Those are honest questions. I have not been able to find information about that on the internet.

There can be no doubt that since the end of the white minority government in Rhodesia the standard of living for blacks there has declined.

So now you're arguing the benefits of colonialism and imperialism? Sure, if we make some backward country in Africa the 51st state, the standard of living will improve for its people. That isn't really the point. People have the right to manage their own affairs.

oldiegoody
01-15-2009, 01:06 PM
CTV news 9;30 am today Jan, 15, 09. reorted that Isreal just bombed and destroyed the UN aid station in Gaza. All food, medicine and other supplies have been destroyed, they are trying to save the office building from also burning.
The Israelis are saying it was an "unfortunate accident"!!:mad::mad:

Kimiko
01-15-2009, 01:08 PM
One other comment is in order. Some folks seem to like to drink the kool-aid that the U.S. is only interested in spreading democracy and getting rid of dictators in the Third World who make war on their own people. But the record is clear -- we've propped up countless tinhorn dictators when we thought it was in our interests to do so, and we've done our best to undermine democratically elected governments when we thought it was in our interests to do that. Even to the extent that we've arranged for elected leaders to be assassinated.

Kimiko
01-15-2009, 01:08 PM
CTV news 9;30 am today Jan, 15, 09. reorted that Isreal just bombed and destroyed the UN aid station in Gaza. All food, medicine and other supplies have been destroyed, they are trying to save the office building from also burning.
The Israelis are saying it was an "unfortunate accident"!!:mad::mad:

Yeah...."Oops...my bad".

captnm
01-15-2009, 01:35 PM
As I sit here reviewing this most interesting post, eating a Clementine [the fruit kind not the femine kind, pervs] from the mid-east, I cannot help but wonder if the Jews & Arabs had buried the hatchet decades ago and turned Palestine into the productive farmland the Jews have with Israel, could the Clementine have come from that area?

Somehow they cannot agree. But then I look at this post and see that a lot of people here can't agree. Some of you go to great lengths to dredge up a lot of articles to prove your positions on the matter. Others hurl a bunch of crap at each other. [If you were in the same room, blood would be flowing as it is in Palestine.]

We don't seem to be able to agree on who is at fault [even though they both seem to be at fault]

How do we expect the Jews & Arabs to agree ?? The UN ?? Even if a cease fire was arranged as I type, it would take generations for the hate to go away.

Now I am going to get another Clementine have a smoke break scratch
my nuts and get back to work, all the while shaking my head [the one with two eyes]

Kimiko
01-15-2009, 03:12 PM
As I sit here reviewing this most interesting post, eating a Clementine [the fruit kind not the femine kind, pervs] from the mid-east, I cannot help but wonder if the Jews & Arabs had buried the hatchet decades ago and turned Palestine into the productive farmland the Jews have with Israel, could the Clementine have come from that area?

Somehow they cannot agree. But then I look at this post and see that a lot of people here can't agree. Some of you go to great lengths to dredge up a lot of articles to prove your positions on the matter. Others hurl a bunch of crap at each other. [If you were in the same room, blood would be flowing as it is in Palestine.]

We don't seem to be able to agree on who is at fault [even though they both seem to be at fault]

How do we expect the Jews & Arabs to agree ?? The UN ?? Even if a cease fire was arranged as I type, it would take generations for the hate to go away.

Now I am going to get another Clementine have a smoke break scratch
my nuts and get back to work, all the while shaking my head [the one with two eyes]

The solution is for them to have sex with each other. Presto! In a generation or two, we wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

captnm
01-15-2009, 06:33 PM
Isn't that what they are doing now ?? Tryingto fuck each other ?? :)

Slick_100
01-15-2009, 06:46 PM
http://dontclickthis.whatingods.name/catpong.gif

Kimiko
01-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Isn't that what they are doing now ?? Tryingto fuck each other ?? :)

Yeah, but without love, and without pleasure.

lor280465
01-15-2009, 09:05 PM
CTV news 9;30 am today Jan, 15, 09. reorted that Isreal just bombed and destroyed the UN aid station in Gaza. All food, medicine and other supplies have been destroyed, they are trying to save the office building from also burning.
The Israelis are saying it was an "unfortunate accident"!!:mad::mad:That the price of war...:mad:

stumbler
01-17-2009, 07:28 AM
Did you really mean that? In what way is South Africa so much better off? And if so why wouldn't Israel and the Palestinians be better off if Israel stopped their Apartheid like control of Gaza and the West Bank?

I think you're contradicting yourself here Deidre.

Whatever, South Africa would not be the same without the Europeans. Apartheid was rightly ended but you cannot say that country is better off now. Ever since it ended the defeated locals want everything they did not work for or build, infrastructure, land, and money? Israel does what it does to survive, wouldn't you? I put all the blame on Hamas and certain Palestinian groups. How can you not? No one to blame but themselves. This conflict can be summed up in one picture........
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Temple_mount.JPG/300px-Temple_mount.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Temple_mount.JPG)

You mean after they stopped being occupied and controlled by European Nations that colonized them? You do realize of course that when we look at most African nations today they have only been in existence for a very short time and they started a severe disadvantages because they were divided up without any thought to geographical boundaries or ethnic groups. In fact in most cases within those nations the ruling Europeans used the minority ethnic group to control the majority ethnic group. That caused a great deal of ethnic strife which has been boiling over for the past few decades.

But certainly you realize that despite the horrendous atrocities and attempted genocide in places like Rwanda for example they have managed to put that behind them and live in peace. Which of course proves it is possible for other groups like the Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace also.And deidre there are successful African countries. In fact there are 52 different nations but you apparently just base your racist opinion on the relatively few trouble spots.


Every nation has been colonized at one point in time or another. Could it be the fact they are just stupid still acting in their tribal ways commiting genocide on each other? Again, sad. You never named a country or gave me an example? Why did they not colonize the earth instead of the whites? Tell me?


See that's what I thought. Due to your racist ideology you are contradicting yourself saying on one hand Apartheid was good, then bad and now good again. The truth is that like most all African nations South Africa was built on the exploitation of two resources. Natural resources and human resources in the form of natives to do the actual work.But you never answered my question. Has South Africa really suffered economically and culturally since ending Apartheid?And the British and the Dutch and the US and all the other imperialist nations that colonized and exploited Africa have seen the error of their ways and they are errors just like what is happening in the Middle East today.

Shouldn't Israel and the US see those errors for what they are?


Every country is built on human and natural resources so I don't see why they are so special? Yes it has gone to hell just like the rest of Africa, do some research. Errors of their ways? That is how the world works. Do you think the current configuration of the world map will be the same in 50 years? 100? how about a thousand?


Originally Posted by deidre79
Do you really think i am so cold hearted as to wish death upon innocent civilians?

Yes I do, because you have said so.


If you say so........it must be true. I have? we all die




No you only blame the Arab and Palestinian governments while you cheer Israel on.


Of course I do because Israel represents my way of life. Arabs don't. How stupid are you really? Islamic fundamentalists believe the entire world should follow strict Islamic teachings or die by their hand? No thank you. Welcome to WWIII.



Then who do you listen to that claims all Democrats are apologists? Because that's actually not true and I have challenged you to point out where I apologized and you obviously can't.


For the simple fact that you give justification to enemies of the West and the United States. You cannot choose a side can you? You must sympathize with all wrongs in the world and see that they are righted as you see fit. pixie dust...I cannot and will not communicate with such a prick anymore.

You are so mature, thanks for the apology :rose:At least I tried to be nice

Deidre, I think Distant Lover posted this for you on another thread. It accurately describes most everything you've said here.

http://forum.xnxx.com/showpost.php?p=1514910&postcount=22