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  1. #1
    Porn Star stumbler's Avatar
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    Default Anyone watching Pakistan

    Seems like our democratic ally Pakistan is being placed under marshal law to keep from losing power. These guys have nukes, they are trying to keep former Prime minister Bhutto (a woman out of office) and they have been safe haven for Osama Bin Lauden. Should we still be backing their preisdent Musharif?
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    From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I don't have a clue what should be done about this...keep propping this idiot up or throw him to the angry mob. I smell another genocide coming, or at least a revolution that will put some other crazy thug in power. The idealist in me says that at the very least, we should be cutting off aid, and using every bit of leverage we have available. Instead, all I see is kissy-kissy softballs.

    For what it's worth, Musharref certainly makes a mockery of the Bush Administration's "spread democracy all over the world" meme. It'd be funny if it weren't for the fact that Musharref has been harboring Bin Laden and aiding the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

    And while we're at it, why is it that we think it's an unmitigated disaster for Iran to obtain nuclear weapons (for which I've still seen no hard evidence), but we think it's just fine that Pakistan, the second most populous Muslim country in the world and an unstable regime to boot, has them?

    It's a world gone mad.
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    well Mushareff (probably spelled it wrong) got into power through miltary force in the first place. he was the Leader of the army. So this is not surprising. He feels backed against a wall and retaliates the only way he knows how. Brute force.

    Due to their strategic location in the middle east Pakistan made a good, yet not properly utilized ally. That's why Bush was all kissy kissy with him. But he was never democratic in the true sense of the word.
    I'm just saying.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Incubus View Post
    well Mushareff (probably spelled it wrong) got into power through miltary force in the first place. he was the Leader of the army. So this is not surprising. He feels backed against a wall and retaliates the only way he knows how. Brute force.

    Due to their strategic location in the middle east Pakistan made a good, yet not properly utilized ally. That's why Bush was all kissy kissy with him. But he was never democratic in the true sense of the word.
    If he's such a great ally, why didn't he assist us in capturing Bin Laden? Or could it be that the Bush Administration doesn't want to capture him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    If he's such a great ally, why didn't he assist us in capturing Bin Laden? Or could it be that the Bush Administration doesn't want to capture him?
    that's what i mean by not properly utilized ally. he does not want a large population of armed forces parading around in his country starting wars, unrest & killing thousands of people. This stuff is all deeply rooted in geopolitics & strained diplomacy. incase you haven't notice diplomacy is not this administration's forte.
    I'm just saying.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Incubus View Post
    that's what i mean by not properly utilized ally. he does not want a large population of armed forces parading around in his country starting wars, unrest & killing thousands of people. This stuff is all deeply rooted in geopolitics & strained diplomacy. incase you haven't notice diplomacy is not this administration's forte.
    Yeah, if I look real hard, I sometimes notice that.
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    and plus Bin Laden is a mega important religious leader of millions, has money coming out his ass and ties with who's who in world politics and business. to most he is better of alive than dead so that's no walk in the park. this administration along with, the 'unified coalition' quote unquote know very well that capturing or killing bin laden would not stop terrorism in the least. rather it would escalate aggression across the world.
    I'm just saying.



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    Don't be fooled. Pakistan's political infrastructure still exists, much like Israel's because the U.S. wants it to. They need friendly shores in the middle east. Ironically, the Taliban would have no power if it weren't for idiots like carter and Reagan arming them and helping them fight the Russians who were smart enough to try and stop them when they would have been powerless to resist in 1980-1981.

    And it is a Genocide ocurring in Pakistan right now. Ambushing and arresting their "political activists" (i.e. women, educated people, anyone who isnt a murderous mental case), controlling, the media, attacking their leader, and harboring Al Qeda. Positioning Pakistan as another Afghanistan.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I don't have a clue what should be done about this...keep propping this idiot up or throw him to the angry mob. I smell another genocide coming, or at least a revolution that will put some other crazy thug in power. The idealist in me says that at the very least, we should be cutting off aid, and using every bit of leverage we have available. Instead, all I see is kissy-kissy softballs.

    For what it's worth, Musharref certainly makes a mockery of the Bush Administration's "spread democracy all over the world" meme. It'd be funny if it weren't for the fact that Musharref has been harboring Bin Laden and aiding the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

    And while we're at it, why is it that we think it's an unmitigated disaster for Iran to obtain nuclear weapons (for which I've still seen no hard evidence), but we think it's just fine that Pakistan, the second most populous Muslim country in the world and an unstable regime to boot, has them?

    It's a world gone mad.
    "No reason to get excited the thief he kindly spoke, there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke. But you and I have been through that and that is not our fate, so let us not speak falsely now the hour is getting late," Dylan of course.

    And now ladies and gentlemen I would like to direct your attention away from Pakistan and Iraq, and Iran, and Israel, and the entire middle east to India. Who we have no control over and will not tolerate more nuclear and miltary threats from Pakistain. Nuclear war is nuclear war no matter starts or finishes it. That's one.

    At the Tin Foil Hat Society Meeting we see the CIA's finger prints all over Musariff to keep that liberal way to truthful bitch form getting in there again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incubus View Post
    well Mushareff (probably spelled it wrong) got into power through miltary force in the first place. he was the Leader of the army. So this is not surprising. He feels backed against a wall and retaliates the only way he knows how. Brute force.

    Due to their strategic location in the middle east Pakistan made a good, yet not properly utilized ally. That's why Bush was all kissy kissy with him. But he was never democratic in the true sense of the word.
    Or President Cheney/Bush could be stacking the deck and setting up the connections for the next couple of decades of string pulling and getting premission from the American public to use torture in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    If he's such a great ally, why didn't he assist us in capturing Bin Laden? Or could it be that the Bush Administration doesn't want to capture him?
    I put this up. I bet Bin Laden had to have a kidney transplant and he probably had it done in the US.
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  10. #10
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    M did one good thing......arrest all the lawyers. They are the troublemakers
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    M did one good thing......arrest all the lawyers. They are the troublemakers If this is a double post sorry, it took too long and I stopped it, but maybe it went anyway.
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  12. #12
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    Bush doesn't want Bin Laden captured. No way in hell... He provides the perfect recurrring scapegoat for Bush's regime. The Regiment (SAS to Americans) went into Afghanistan to try and root him out, and - this isn't common knowledge, I don't believe) British Administration was told in no uncertain terms to remove the Regiment from their counter-terrorist ops in Afghanistan, for reasons of 'national security and safety.' In other words, Bush was scared that they'd actually get Bin Laden, show up his regime and the American special forces, and remove his leverage over the American population.

    Wanker.
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    Unfortuatly the U.S. Govt. has a long history of propping up dictatorships that abuse their own people.
    Then when the people finally rise up and overthrow the dictators, they remember who sid ewe were on.
    If we hadn't supported the Shah of Iran (a poster child for crimes against humanity) then the extremist in hte middle east wouldn't have been able build the support of the masses.
    Not to paint him in a good light but Hitler gained popularity by "creating" a common enemy for people to blame their problems on.
    As some one once said about Idi Amin (a know cannible and u.s. ally) He might be a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumbler View Post
    I put this up. I bet Bin Laden had to have a kidney
    transplant and he probably had it done in the US.
    I just knew there was a connection between Al Qaeda and the U.S. health care issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakeasy View Post
    Unfortuatly the U.S. Govt. has a long history of propping up dictatorships that abuse their own people.
    Then when the people finally rise up and overthrow the dictators, they remember who sid ewe were on.
    If we hadn't supported the Shah of Iran (a poster child for crimes against humanity) then the extremist in hte middle east wouldn't have been able build the support of the masses.
    Not to paint him in a good light but Hitler gained popularity by "creating" a common enemy for people to blame their problems on.
    As some one once said about Idi Amin (a know cannible and u.s. ally) He might be a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch.
    Or, as was once said about a banana republic tinhorn during the Cold War:

    "No, he's just his own son-of-a-bitch."
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    I like the absurdity of Musharref declaring martial law on . . . himself! Does anyone believe there is a real opposition there now?

    Then basically saying he has no interest in leading his country to democracy.

    Then having our own folks characterize his declaration as "extraconstitutional measures" . . . a new high in euphemistic linquistic license.

    lol

    how deliciously embarrassing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by old tool View Post
    I like the absurdity of Musharref declaring martial law on . . . himself! Does anyone believe there is a real opposition there now?

    Then basically saying he has no interest in leading his country to democracy.

    Then having our own folks characterize his declaration as "extraconstitutional measures" . . . a new high in euphemistic linquistic license.

    lol

    how deliciously embarrassing!
    Meanwhile, George Bush, upon being told that Musharref had suspended the Constitution and declared martial law, said: "Wow....you can DO that??"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    Meanwhile, George Bush, upon being told that Musharref had suspended the Constitution and declared martial law, said: "Wow....you can DO that??"
    You're joking?!

    Oh, shit...
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    If free and fair elections were held today in Pakistan, fundamentalist Islamic groups would take control of the country and it would be another state like Iran.

    Frankly I think we're better off with Musharraf in power.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by x__orion View Post
    You're joking?!

    Oh, shit...
    Yes, I'm joking...maybe.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bukkake Bunny View Post
    If free and fair elections were held today in Pakistan, fundamentalist Islamic groups would take control of the country and it would be another state like Iran.

    Frankly I think we're better off with Musharraf in power.
    Which is exactly what we did in Iran...prop up an wildly unpopular dictator (the Shah, in this case), until the revolutionaries threw him out, and ever since then, we've been The Great Satan. Will we never learn?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    Which is exactly what we did in Iran...prop up an wildly unpopular dictator (the Shah, in this case), until the revolutionaries threw him out, and ever since then, we've been The Great Satan. Will we never learn?
    To the Muslim extremists we are always the Great Satan. It doesn't matter what we do. They don't need a reason or an excuse. Their faith gives them all the justification they need to hate anyone that is not Muslim. Often times even that is not good enough since they spend more time fighting amongst themselves then with the West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bukkake Bunny View Post
    If free and fair elections were held today in Pakistan, fundamentalist Islamic groups would take control of the country and it would be another state like Iran.

    Frankly I think we're better off with Musharraf in power.
    And then we have fundamentalists with Nukes. Not a recipe for peaceful relations. There should be some kind of clause in the treaties or something. If you have nukes and your country is overthrown by unstable or hostile elements, or it's in danger of it, other countries have the right to come in and secure your nuclear arsenal and/or remove it to a more secure location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    To the Muslim extremists we are always the Great Satan. It doesn't matter what we do. They don't need a reason or an excuse. Their faith gives them all the justification they need to hate anyone that is not Muslim. Often times even that is not good enough since they spend more time fighting amongst themselves then with the West.

    -S-
    It probably won't surprise you when I say I don't believe that for a minute. To the extent that they hate us, it has nothing to do with our being infidels, it has everything to do with our foreign policy. We've given the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Saudis (other than the members of the royal family) and the Pakistanis lots of great reasons to hate the United States.

    Now go ahead and make your case for holy war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    And then we have fundamentalists with Nukes. Not a recipe for peaceful relations. There should be some kind of clause in the treaties or something. If you have nukes and your country is overthrown by unstable or hostile elements, or it's in danger of it, other countries have the right to come in and secure your nuclear arsenal and/or remove it to a more secure location.

    -S-
    I'm a lot more worried about the U.S. nuclear arsenal...followed by the Russian one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    It probably won't surprise you when I say I don't believe that for a minute. To the extent that they hate us, it has nothing to do with our being infidels, it has everything to do with our foreign policy. We've given the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Saudis (other than the members of the royal family) and the Pakistanis lots of great reasons to hate the United States.

    Now go ahead and make your case for holy war.
    Typical leftist apologetic response. I expected no less. But I don't need to make the case, their holy book does it for me. It is preached by Mullahs and Imams all over the world that Jihad is the duty of all Muslims. Fact, I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    I'm a lot more worried about the U.S. nuclear arsenal...followed by the Russian one.
    Naturally. Because America has a long history of threatening nuclear response when it doesn't get it's way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    Typical leftist apologetic response. I expected no less. But I don't need to make the case, their holy book does it for me. It is preached by Mullahs and Imams all over the world that Jihad is the duty of all Muslims. Fact, I'm afraid.

    -S-
    And it's your fear that threatens the world.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    Naturally. Because America has a long history of threatening nuclear response when it doesn't get it's way.

    -S-
    I have it on good authority that the U.S. doesn't always just threaten.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    I have it on good authority that the U.S. doesn't always just threaten.
    Mhmm. And when's the last time they used a nuke as a threat for non-compliance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    And it's your fear that threatens the world.
    No, it's their genocidal hatred that threatens the world. Even a casual study of their history backs up these things I say.

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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    No, it's their genocidal hatred that threatens the world. Even a casual study of their history backs up these things I say.

    -S-
    Really? For a billion or so people bent on genocide, they haven't inflicted much damage. Nowhere near the damage we've inflicted on Iraq, for example.

    And if what you say is true, explain to me the Bush Administration's policy of supplying weapons, nuclear or otherwise, to the likes of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

    Your fear-mongering, on the other hand, threatens to start World War III.
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    Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cricket!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky View Post
    Damn, I thought this thread was going to be about cricket!
    No Chunky that's Polo,,,,,,,,remember,,my stick and gogggles,,lmao
    Ok gals lets get down to business, you suck me and I eat you,and we toast to good fucking.
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    why is our administraition, and the free-press for that matter, so worried about a guy who is president and commander of the army?

    why is Bush telling another leader that it is wrong to be both a president and that country's armed-forces ultimate commander?

    we in the US have the very same situation. the only difference is our president never served in the armed forces he is commanding.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeway View Post
    why is our administraition, and the free-press for that matter, so worried about a guy who is president and commander of the army?

    why is Bush telling another leader that it is wrong to be both a president and that country's armed-forces ultimate commander?

    we in the US have the very same situation. the only difference is our president never served in the armed forces he is commanding.
    Maybe it's kind of a Castro hangover.

    But now that I think about it, Saddam Hussein used to wear a military uni too. So there it is.
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    also, in the history of politics, which is millinum-long and filthy, Bhutto is perhaps the most corrupt politician there ever was. What is she even doing back in her country of victims? has she already spent the billion dollars worth of bribes she accepted?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    Maybe it's kind of a Castro hangover.

    But now that I think about it, Saddam Hussein used to wear a military uni too. So there it is.
    but explain the western-press's hypocracy! And our govt's...

    Our president is also the commander-in-chief, for chri$t sakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeway View Post
    but explain the western-press's hypocracy! And our govt's...

    Our president is also the commander-in-chief, for chri$t sakes.

    If you are looking for impossible answers, any one of the 'god' threads would be less of a challenge than explaining our hypocrisy.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeway View Post
    but explain the western-press's hypocracy! And our govt's...

    Our president is also the commander-in-chief, for chri$t sakes.
    Don't give him any ideas. Next thing you know, he'll don his flight suit and codpiece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by old tool View Post
    If you are looking for impossible answers, any one of the 'god' threads would be less of a challenge than explaining our hypocrisy.

    In my favorite pub, i avoid political disussions. I have, in fact, become rather skilled at steering these "taboo" discussions toward Missouri's (Tigers) football team chances of winning the national championship. It's not really difficult, since we have the best college team in the universe.

    in this forum, i avoid religous threads. I have never suffered from the Bubonic Plague, but i would rather have that than have some rabid-moron arguing pro/con on God. the xnxx forum will not prove nor disprove the existance of whatever, whoever created this mess.


    who should run Pakistan's govt? someone who is elected by the electorate.

    Ms. Bunny says the extremists will win an election... Sorry Bunny, but Islamic extremists in Pakistan aren't politically organized at all... no one believes that. Pervez has the best chance... Bhutto may pull a Hilary and promise evrey man women and child a $1000 Paki-Bucks and a free Paki-Truck and steal the election.
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    In Isreal, the Palestinians learned to organize themselves politically. Little more than a year ago, when they first had the opportunity to elect a gov't, they gave the responsibilty to the Hamas... a terrorsist group with as much blood on there hands as anyone... The palestinians are learning their lesson.

    Yasser Arafat was responsible for organizing the palestianians into a political entity that irratates every gov't on operating on the globe.

    No Yasser Arafat, or any other leader is currently on the radar that can pull together the islamic extremists in Pakistan... in fact, with no Palestinian-cause to unite them, Pakistani extremists have no, NO, NOOO, interest in a democracy (see afghanistan under the Taliban).

    I can't believe i only have 804 posts... wtf?
    Last edited by bladeway; 11-08-2007 at 11:57 PM.
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    The Master Shake ShakeZula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    Really? For a billion or so people bent on genocide, they haven't inflicted much damage. Nowhere near the damage we've inflicted on Iraq, for example.

    And if what you say is true, explain to me the Bush Administration's policy of supplying weapons, nuclear or otherwise, to the likes of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

    Your fear-mongering, on the other hand, threatens to start World War III.
    They were interviewing a local Muslim leader here in St. Louis awhile back and he said, and I quote, "Every Muslim believes in jihad. Just not every muslim believes in it enough to get off their couch." So while that might not represent every one of the billion, it's a good look in to the mind of your average, everyday American muslim. While the billion might not openly practice jihad, I'm betting a very large number support it through various methods and are at the very least complacent in it.

    And we prop up and supply these countries partly for the same reason we backed South Vietnam and South Korea and the rebels in Afghanistan and why we stuck around to rebuild Europe after WW2 and maintained a significant presence there for so many years: Those in charge see it as better than the alternative. Imagine what it would have meant to Europe and the course of the Cold War had the U.S. not been there to keep Russia behind the Iron Curtain. Or in S. Korea. We prop them up because we see it as better than the alternatives. We didn't give a shit about Afghanistan but we funded and trained Bin Laden because we didn't want the Russians to have it. We went in to Vietnam because we didn't want the Chinese, and through them, the Russians to have it. We went in to S. Korea for the same reasons.

    It's very easy (and convenient) for us to say now that we shouldn't have done that or such-and-such action was a mistake, but we're only allowed that luxury after 30, 40 and 50 years of historical analysis and second guessing. It's easy to forget that Communism was a very real threat. So, rightly or wrongly, we played chess with a lot of lesser countries to keep the Russians from gaining an edge and them us. And a lot of good came out of it. The interstate highway system, the internet, cell phones, just to name a few. It also left us in a good position to support the burgeoning global economy. Where ever we have bases and a presence we're able to ensure stability and that helps build trade and trade helps the local economies.

    I don't necessarily agree with this policy, though. I don't like that we've set ourselves up as this global peace force. I don't think it's sustainable. But I view our presence in the middle east in a very similar light. We supported Saddam for those years because he was seen as a better alternative. The same with the Shah. We support Saudi Arabia because they at least pretend to be on our side. I'm not even sure I buy the oil argument that much because it doesn't seem to be helping a lot, lately. What was it, 97 bucks a barrel yesterday? As much as you want to blame Bush for this mess, it was put in place before Bush was even born. Back when his daddy was still a snot-nosed kid running around in knickerbockers.

    Terrorism is a real threat, just as Communism and Fascism before it. They don't have to destroy America, they just have to bomb a port. Trade would grind to a screeching halt as all ports in the US were closed to be checked. Imagine what that would do to our economy. There are a thousand ways in which they could seriously screw with us. But if a nuke is used, it won't be by us. Not first, anyway. Our only hope is to keep people in power who won't use them as a first response. There are enough religious zealots in the Muslim world that if they got their hands on one, they might use it. If they did, once we figured out what country made it, which they can do now, we would almost certainly be forced to nuke them in response.

    And, oh yee of the short memory, if you'll recall it was not the U.S. that nearly propelled the world in to nuclear war a few years ago, it was Pakistan and India. Between the two countries they had over a million troops on the border ready to invade and the nukes were primed. Sectarian violence has caused tens of thousands of deaths in the Kashmir region in the last several years. The same in Iraq. Most of the deaths are because Shia are killing Sunni, not the US killing everyone.

    But really, I don't know why I bother. You're the forum poster child for the Blame America first crowd. Your hatred for Bush has given you an extremely myopic view of history. It doesn't matter how long-standing some problems were or what the catalyst for past actions were, somehow in your mind everything is Bush's fault.

    -S-
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeway View Post
    In Isreal, the Palestinians learned to organize themselves politically. Little more than a year ago, when they first had the opportunity to elect a gov't, they gave the responsibilty to the Hamas... a terrorsist group with as much blood on there hands as anyone... The palestinians are learning their lesson.

    Yasser Arafat was responsible for organizing the palestianians into a political entity that irratates every gov't on operating on the globe.

    No Yasser Arafat, or any other leader is currently on the radar that can pull together the islamic extremists in Pakistan... in fact, with no Palestinian-cause to unite them, Pakistani extremists have no, NO, NOOO, interest in a democracy (see afghanistan under the Taliban).

    I can't believe i only have 804 posts... wtf?
    The P.A. had been robbing the Palestinians blind for years. I think they voted for Hamas as sort of a last resort thing. At least I hope so. They definitely weren't getting results under Arafat. He made out like a bandit, dying a billionaire while his people lived in squaller. He tried to play the dignified statesmen, seeking peace despite the evil Jews, while on the other hand doing everything he could to undermine the process. There were elements in the Israeli government that also undermined the process but seeing as the P.A. and Arafat never had any intention of allowing a Palestinian state along side a Jewish one, even if the Israeli parliament was in total agreement, it couldn't have happened. But it's also very telling that every time these muslim countries are given a free vote, they vote in the fundamentalist strong men. I think it says a lot about their character.

    -S-
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    They were interviewing a local Muslim leader here in St. Louis awhile back and he said, and I quote, "Every Muslim believes in jihad. Just not every muslim believes in it enough to get off their couch." So while that might not represent every one of the billion, it's a good look in to the mind of your average, everyday American muslim. While the billion might not openly practice jihad, I'm betting a very large number support it through various methods and are at the very least complacent in it.

    And we prop up and supply these countries partly for the same reason we backed South Vietnam and South Korea and the rebels in Afghanistan and why we stuck around to rebuild Europe after WW2 and maintained a significant presence there for so many years: Those in charge see it as better than the alternative. Imagine what it would have meant to Europe and the course of the Cold War had the U.S. not been there to keep Russia behind the Iron Curtain. Or in S. Korea. We prop them up because we see it as better than the alternatives. We didn't give a shit about Afghanistan but we funded and trained Bin Laden because we didn't want the Russians to have it. We went in to Vietnam because we didn't want the Chinese, and through them, the Russians to have it. We went in to S. Korea for the same reasons.

    It's very easy (and convenient) for us to say now that we shouldn't have done that or such-and-such action was a mistake, but we're only allowed that luxury after 30, 40 and 50 years of historical analysis and second guessing. It's easy to forget that Communism was a very real threat. So, rightly or wrongly, we played chess with a lot of lesser countries to keep the Russians from gaining an edge and them us. And a lot of good came out of it. The interstate highway system, the internet, cell phones, just to name a few. It also left us in a good position to support the burgeoning global economy. Where ever we have bases and a presence we're able to ensure stability and that helps build trade and trade helps the local economies.

    I don't necessarily agree with this policy, though. I don't like that we've set ourselves up as this global peace force. I don't think it's sustainable. But I view our presence in the middle east in a very similar light. We supported Saddam for those years because he was seen as a better alternative. The same with the Shah. We support Saudi Arabia because they at least pretend to be on our side. I'm not even sure I buy the oil argument that much because it doesn't seem to be helping a lot, lately. What was it, 97 bucks a barrel yesterday? As much as you want to blame Bush for this mess, it was put in place before Bush was even born. Back when his daddy was still a snot-nosed kid running around in knickerbockers.

    Terrorism is a real threat, just as Communism and Fascism before it. They don't have to destroy America, they just have to bomb a port. Trade would grind to a screeching halt as all ports in the US were closed to be checked. Imagine what that would do to our economy. There are a thousand ways in which they could seriously screw with us. But if a nuke is used, it won't be by us. Not first, anyway. Our only hope is to keep people in power who won't use them as a first response. There are enough religious zealots in the Muslim world that if they got their hands on one, they might use it. If they did, once we figured out what country made it, which they can do now, we would almost certainly be forced to nuke them in response.

    And, oh yee of the short memory, if you'll recall it was not the U.S. that nearly propelled the world in to nuclear war a few years ago, it was Pakistan and India. Between the two countries they had over a million troops on the border ready to invade and the nukes were primed. Sectarian violence has caused tens of thousands of deaths in the Kashmir region in the last several years. The same in Iraq. Most of the deaths are because Shia are killing Sunni, not the US killing everyone.

    But really, I don't know why I bother. You're the forum poster child for the Blame America first crowd. Your hatred for Bush has given you an extremely myopic view of history. It doesn't matter how long-standing some problems were or what the catalyst for past actions were, somehow in your mind everything is Bush's fault.

    -S-
    Gawd. No, I don't blame Bush for 60 years of American foreign policy stupidity. I blame Bush and his puppetmasters for not learning anything from history. And evidently, you haven't learned anything from it either.

    But you really put me away when you implied that we wouldn't have the interstate highway system if it wasn't for the Cold War. Like that would make it all worthwhile.

    Communism was the convenient bogeyman of the 50s and 60s, and that's evidently where you got your McCarthyite view of the world. It's necessary to have an outside enemy to create the necessary climate of fear, in order to justify having the world's largest military, the world's largest nuclear arsenal, and a defense budget greater than the rest of the world combined. When is it ever enough for you guys? When do you ever stop saber-rattling and start actually TALKING to people?

    Oh, but that wouldn't allow people to make piles of money on defense contracts. That's one lesson they DID learn from history.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    Gawd. No, I don't blame Bush for 60 years of American foreign policy stupidity. I blame Bush and his puppetmasters for not learning anything from history. And evidently, you haven't learned anything from it either.

    But you really put me away when you implied that we wouldn't have the interstate highway system if it wasn't for the Cold War. Like that would make it all worthwhile.

    Communism was the convenient bogeyman of the 50s and 60s, and that's evidently where you got your McCarthyite view of the world. It's necessary to have an outside enemy to create the necessary climate of fear, in order to justify having the world's largest military, the world's largest nuclear arsenal, and a defense budget greater than the rest of the world combined. When is it ever enough for you guys? When do you ever stop saber-rattling and start actually TALKING to people?

    Oh, but that wouldn't allow people to make piles of money on defense contracts. That's one lesson they DID learn from history.
    As I said, decades removed you can say "what was the big deal?" but at the time it was a very big deal. McCarthy used the real concern of Communist infiltration for his own ends. He wasn't totally off base though, there really Communist spies in our government just as we had spies in theirs. Since you hate America so much though, it doesn't matter. There is no such thing as intent with you. Knowing as you much as you know about how destructive communism is and was, you redicule our attempts to save nations from it. Maybe we should have let Russia have free reign through Europe and Asia. We saw how much they prospered in their own country. Five year plan, anyone? How about some famine this Thanksgiving? We see how open and free China is, maybe we should have turned a blind eye to it. We need a Tieneman Square? Hell, lets adopt it here. Everyone knows that democracy and capitalism is just a scam to stick it to brown people, anyway. And we definitely should have left Europe to the Nazis. After all, it was France with their insistence on such harsh terms of surrender after WWI that led directly to the second world war. The U.S. and Britain both tried to explain that it was too harsh, but France would have none of it.

    And you scoff at the the highways and the internet but what do you log in to every day? What do you drive on to see friends or family or to go on vacation? Our technology was built on the back of DARPA and the military innovations that came directly from our attempt to one-up the Russians and stay ahead of the game. Our technology was the keystone that built up the modern world. And every chance you get you spit on it. Next time you drive, take some back roads. Start using snail mail for all your communications. Get rid of your cell phone and your cable and satellite tv. Recycle your computer and only wear natural fibers. You're the ultimate hypocrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    As I said, decades removed you can say "what was the big deal?" but at the time it was a very big deal. McCarthy used the real concern of Communist infiltration for his own ends. He wasn't totally off base though, there really Communist spies in our government just as we had spies in theirs. Since you hate America so much though, it doesn't matter. There is no such thing as intent with you. Knowing as you much as you know about how destructive communism is and was, you redicule our attempts to save nations from it. Maybe we should have let Russia have free reign through Europe and Asia. We saw how much they prospered in their own country. Five year plan, anyone? How about some famine this Thanksgiving? We see how open and free China is, maybe we should have turned a blind eye to it. We need a Tieneman Square? Hell, lets adopt it here. Everyone knows that democracy and capitalism is just a scam to stick it to brown people, anyway. And we definitely should have left Europe to the Nazis. After all, it was France with their insistence on such harsh terms of surrender after WWI that led directly to the second world war. The U.S. and Britain both tried to explain that it was too harsh, but France would have none of it.

    And you scoff at the the highways and the internet but what do you log in to every day? What do you drive on to see friends or family or to go on vacation? Our technology was built on the back of DARPA and the military innovations that came directly from our attempt to one-up the Russians and stay ahead of the game. Our technology was the keystone that built up the modern world. And every chance you get you spit on it. Next time you drive, take some back roads. Start using snail mail for all your communications. Get rid of your cell phone and your cable and satellite tv. Recycle your computer and only wear natural fibers. You're the ultimate hypocrite.

    -S-
    I don't hate America, I hate what people like YOU have been trying to do to undermine it's ideals and it's promise. You're not about freedom and democracy, you're about world domination and empire. You're not about peace, your about perpetual war. You're not about human decency and dignity, you're about wiretapping and torture.

    You talk about choices, and the best alternatives. Was the best alternative to go into Vietnam? Was the outcome better for our having done that? Was taking out Mossadegh and installing the Shah in Iran the best choice? Did that turn out well? Was taking out Saddam the best choice? Don't you people ever get TIRED of being proven wrong by subsequent events? Even when you were warned in advance of the likely consequences, by people who DO know something?

    And your premise that we need war to promote technology is fucking obscene. Imagine the money we would have had to build the interstate highway system and the internet if we hadn't been spending billions on useless and unecessary wars.

    So go peddle your right-wing propaganda someplace else, Shake, like maybe a koffee-klatch of the John Birch Society, the My Country Right or Wrong Club, or the America, Love It or Leave It Society. I, for one, choose to speak up and criticize those who would turn my country into a fucking police state. Deal with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimiko View Post
    I don't hate America, I hate what people like YOU have been trying to do to undermine it's ideals and it's promise. You're not about freedom and democracy, you're about world domination and empire. You're not about peace, your about perpetual war. You're not about human decency and dignity, you're about wiretapping and torture.

    You talk about choices, and the best alternatives. Was the best alternative to go into Vietnam? Was the outcome better for our having done that? Was taking out Mossadegh and installing the Shah in Iran the best choice? Did that turn out well? Was taking out Saddam the best choice? Don't you people ever get TIRED of being proven wrong by subsequent events? Even when you were warned in advance of the likely consequences, by people who DO know something?

    And your premise that we need war to promote technology is fucking obscene. Imagine the money we would have had to build the interstate highway system and the internet if we hadn't been spending billions on useless and unecessary wars.

    So go peddle your right-wing propaganda someplace else, Shake, like maybe a koffee-klatch of the John Birch Society, the My Country Right or Wrong Club, or the America, Love It or Leave It Society. I, for one, choose to speak up and criticize those who would turn my country into a fucking police state. Deal with it.
    I've said it several times that I don't want to be in these countries. I'm actually a bit of a fan of Ron Paul and his pre-Cold War politics. But you keep ignoring that fact. Didn't I just say above I don't agree with this policy. That it's not sustainable. I'm pretty sure I did.

    Necessity is the mother of all invention. It's an ugly truth to you, but the facts are staring back at you from your monitor. It sings at you every time your cell phone rings and every time you search through your 500 channels.

    -S-
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakeZula View Post
    I've said it several times that I don't want to be in these countries. I'm actually a bit of a fan of Ron Paul and his pre-Cold War politics. But you keep ignoring that fact. Didn't I just say above I don't agree with this policy. That it's not sustainable. I'm pretty sure I did.

    Necessity is the mother of all invention. It's an ugly truth to you, but the facts are staring back at you from your monitor. It sings at you every time your cell phone rings and every time you search through your 500 channels.

    -S-
    Whatever...I always feel a lot better after a good rant.
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    You, me and Benazir OK !!:D
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