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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    If it goes ahead as planned then absolutely all the fun in it will be sucked right out of it and the result will be one huge anti climax.

    ELP uses the Oscars as a for instance. Fair enough, he has a point but what about elections. Follow the Presidential one or the mid-terms? Watch the polling updates? He doesn't, just reads it in tomorrow's paper.
    As far as political elections go, networks used to broadcast exit polls and early returns (from the east which is hours ahead of the west). West coast election officials had that process scrapped because people in California or Oregon would see Bush ahead by a landslide and then either not bother to vote or change their vote to Bush so that they are backing a winner. The proposed CAW changes will also stop that "front-runner" voting (for or against) and make all of this more fair for every entrant.

    And isn't this what we (as in all on XNXX) want?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    You have it in one; there is no transparency its all done in secret, by two buddies.

    Horse can't understand why I bother when I'm wrong.

    But I'm not; after all the input on voting and show or don't show we get ELPs post and its obvious he and the others are stuck on what they have proposed. So back to the "draft" and the driver is the expectation that stories and or writers will be disqualified, that generates the need for polling to be by PM and we have no idea who or what sock vote was accepted for not.

    Maybe it will be run according to Hoyle but if we can't see, we can't know.

    If it goes ahead as planned then absolutely all the fun in it will be sucked right out of it and the result will be one huge anti climax.

    ELP uses the Oscars as a for instance. Fair enough, he has a point but what about elections. Follow the Presidential one or the mid-terms? Watch the polling updates? He doesn't, just reads it in tomorrow's paper.
    Since you have studied the proposal so carefully, I would like you to address each portion, one by one and tell me what you think should or shouldn't be there.

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    If you have been following along from the beginning, you would know that it has been revised a couple of times. Nothing said is going to please everyone - but I'm attempting to do something that will be fair and please most. After all, it's not like any of us is going to retire on our winning a CAW.

    I have been following from the beginning, we have gone off at tangents at times and changes of a minor nature have been "noted" but the essential format proposed remains unchanged.

    I have raised my objections to it; ie lack of transparency in vote counting and no fun in seeing how your story, either as the writer or a supporter, is getting on.

    We have made no progress whatsoever because the positions are diametrically opposed.

    If I could see any merit in what you're proposing, other than for administrative convenience I would agree with it but I can't so I won't.

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    Rudolf, isn't he the one they needed to lead the way?
    He was redeemed in the end but unfortunately shot down, over New Zealand, several years later.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    Official voting will be done by pm, however anyone can announce who they voted for on the thread.
    Having read through the thread there's more members wanting open voting (on the forum) than wanting private voting (by PM only).
    Why not just have a simple poll and go with whatever the majority vote ?

    Would only need 2 options

    Public voting, on the forum, for all to see.
    Private voting, only by PM, where nobody can see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    Having read through the thread there's more members wanting open voting (on the forum) than wanting private voting (by PM only).
    Why not just have a simple poll and go with whatever the majority vote ?

    Would only need 2 options

    Public voting, on the forum, for all to see.
    Private voting, only by PM, where nobody can see.
    The reason polling might not work is because polling options cap out at 25 choices, and if there are more than 25 entries, there would need to be two polls. An unscrupulous person might cast two votes.

    Of course, I'm thinking that there will always be cheaters whether it's by PM or by polling, with socks and such, so the simplest way to eliminate such problems is to just say "screw the popularity contest" and have a board of members (none of whom have entered) act as judges to determine the winner themselves. Of course, this negates the fun of readers participating, making the contest fairly useless.

    So, best bet is to figure out what form of voting makes as many people happy as possible while minimizing cheating. The problem here is one cannot assume there is such an option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chagrin View Post
    The reason polling might not work is because polling options cap out at 25 choices, and if there are more than 25 entries, there would need to be two polls. An unscrupulous person might cast two votes.
    honest question, since i have no idea, has there ever been more that 25 entries before ?

    even if there had to be 2 different polls with votes open for all to see then it would be easy to spot if anyone voted twice. Then just discount both of their votes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    honest question, since i have no idea, has there ever been more that 25 entries before ?

    even if there had to be 2 different polls with votes open for all to see then it would be easy to spot if anyone voted twice. Then just discount both of their votes.
    Yes, there has been before. And if someone casts two votes, which vote should count? neither?

    And there will always be socks and other problems. I'd rather just see a fun little contest without having to care about cheaters and such, but it's hard to find the compromise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chagrin View Post
    Yes, there has been before. And if someone casts two votes, which vote should count? neither?

    And there will always be socks and other problems. I'd rather just see a fun little contest without having to care about cheaters and such, but it's hard to find the compromise.
    Cheers for the answer.
    Neither would count. Make that perfectly clear to everybody from the start.

    the only way possible i can see to find a compromise is to go with whatever the majority say. that's why i suggested a vote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    Having read through the thread there's more members wanting open voting (on the forum) than wanting private voting (by PM only).
    Why not just have a simple poll and go with whatever the majority vote ?

    Would only need 2 options

    Public voting, on the forum, for all to see.
    Private voting, only by PM, where nobody can see.
    PM so that no votes are missed by skipping a post. A pm vote will be acknowledged with a pm back so that the voter knows it was received.

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  11. #131
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    Another problem with a standard poll for voting is that once it is set, it is set. You can't make changes. So when you have votes that need to be removed because of sock voting, or stories because someone gets banned, it screws the whole CAW up. That's why we came up with a way to get the votes recorded pretty easily without having to deal with double polls, broken polls, etc.

    I suggest we try the new method and see how it all works out. If it turns out to be a big flop, we can always go back.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chagrin View Post
    The reason polling might not work is because polling options cap out at 25 choices, and if there are more than 25 entries, there would need to be two polls. An unscrupulous person might cast two votes.

    Of course, I'm thinking that there will always be cheaters whether it's by PM or by polling, with socks and such, so the simplest way to eliminate such problems is to just say "screw the popularity contest" and have a board of members (none of whom have entered) act as judges to determine the winner themselves. Of course, this negates the fun of readers participating, making the contest fairly useless.

    So, best bet is to figure out what form of voting makes as many people happy as possible while minimizing cheating. The problem here is one cannot assume there is such an option.
    I would never want to eliminate the reader from this process. The manual poll worked well, when we were forced to use it after the last issues. There is no was to modify an existing poll and if it has to be redone, as in the last CAW, we would have to notify everyone who voted and give them the option of voting again. If they can't be reached, then some poor writer, who didn't do anything to anyone, may lose votes.

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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    I have been following from the beginning, we have gone off at tangents at times and changes of a minor nature have been "noted" but the essential format proposed remains unchanged.

    I have raised my objections to it; ie lack of transparency in vote counting and no fun in seeing how your story, either as the writer or a supporter, is getting on.

    We have made no progress whatsoever because the positions are diametrically opposed.

    If I could see any merit in what you're proposing, other than for administrative convenience I would agree with it but I can't so I won't.

    Rudolf, isn't he the one they needed to lead the way?
    So your complaint is that the poll would not be available and updated in real time, for all to see?

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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    PM so that no votes are missed by skipping a post. A pm vote will be acknowledged with a pm back so that the voter knows it was received.

    Votes couldn't be missed with a poll.

    maybe you read my post wrong or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahorsewithnoname View Post
    I suggest we try the new method and see how it all works out. If it turns out to be a big flop, we can always go back.
    Exactly. Why don't we try out these rules for the next CAW, but don't write anything in stone so we can figure out how well it works? If there is not enough support for it (as in, people simply aren't voting anymore) then we can change to something else.
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    after reading the latest posts by ej and horse i can see what the problem is with poll voting now.

    but then PM voting is open to abuse by whoever counts the votes and i'm sure there will be plenty saying it is all fixed by the counter(s).
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    after reading the latest posts by ej and horse i can see what the problem is with poll voting now.

    but then PM voting is open to abuse by whoever counts the votes and i'm sure there will be plenty saying it is all fixed by the counter(s).
    Actually, not. We've come up with a way that will prevent any abuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahorsewithnoname View Post
    Actually, not. We've come up with a way that will prevent any abuse.

    Would it not be a good idea to let everybody know the way you've come up with.

    will stop people like me asking silly questions and maybe also appease some of those against PM voting.

    thanks for the replies also, seeing as i'm not a writer and not a regular here in the stories area.
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    I propose we sate the most vocal among us. Otherwise, this bickering will continue well into May. If the majority are for the new option, that of voting by PM, we will see how it works out on a trial run.

    I am for the new option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post

    Votes couldn't be missed with a poll.

    maybe you read my post wrong or something.
    But the poll did not work because of the issues last time. We're tying to come up with a way so as not to majorly disrupt another CAW, should anyone try anything not quite kosher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post

    Would it not be a good idea to let everybody know the way you've come up with.

    will stop people like me asking silly questions and maybe also appease some of those against PM voting.

    thanks for the replies also, seeing as i'm not a writer and not a regular here in the stories area.
    Sure, no problem. An account will be set up just for voting. PMs will be sent to it. The previous CAW winner will have the job of communicating back to the voter that the vote was recorded. ALL previous CAW winners will have access to the account as a check and balance against any miscount. Whoever wins CAW 11 will gain access to the account, and so on.

    If anyone believes that all previous CAW winners will conspire together to rig a vote...seek professional help, please!

    You're welcome about the replies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    after reading the latest posts by ej and horse i can see what the problem is with poll voting now.

    but then PM voting is open to abuse by whoever counts the votes and i'm sure there will be plenty saying it is all fixed by the counter(s).
    That's why there are two people receiving the votes and the members will receive a pm acknowledging their choice. The member can also choose to announce to the forum who they voted for.

    I like Ed's idea of the current host working with the last host. Then no one can be accused of choosing the "best friend" to help them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    But the poll did not work because of the issues last time. We're tying to come up with a way so as not to majorly disrupt another CAW, should anyone try anything not quite kosher.
    I saw that problem after yourself and horse had explained. thanks.

    Would it be a good idea with PM voting to get members to CC their PM's to several counters, including at least one who is in no way connected to the stories board and who has no real connection to any of the writers ?

    Two people could easily fix the voting if they wished to (not saying they will).
    members might get a PM acknowledgement but no way of knowing if their votes has been actually counted.

    also it's been said that the counters can discount a vote if they choose to (for various reasons).

    i know it's difficult to come to a perfect solution but just thought i'd raise some points where some members might find fault.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    I saw that problem after yourself and horse had explained. thanks.

    Would it be a good idea with PM voting to get members to CC their PM's to several counters, including at least one who is in no way connected to the stories board and who has no real connection to any of the writers ?

    Two people could easily fix the voting if they wished to (not saying they will).
    members might get a PM acknowledgement but no way of knowing if their votes has been actually counted.

    also it's been said that the counters can discount a vote if they choose to (for various reasons).

    i know it's difficult to come to a perfect solution but just thought i'd raise some points where some members might find fault.
    My understanding is that it won't just be two people but rather ALL previous CAW winners will have access to the account. That will stop any collusion. And, by having one account, it won't make it difficult for someone to PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahorsewithnoname View Post
    My understanding is that it won't just be two people but rather ALL previous CAW winners will have access to the account. That will stop any collusion. And, by having one account, it won't make it difficult for someone to PM.
    thanks again for answering horse.

    i think if that's the case then you're covering all bases. having all previous winners seeing all votes is a great way.
    although ej says it is two counters.

    now just need to find a way to stop all sock votes. though that is going to be impossible really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahorsewithnoname View Post
    My understanding is that it won't just be two people but rather ALL previous CAW winners will have access to the account. That will stop any collusion. And, by having one account, it won't make it difficult for someone to PM.
    How will we know who we're corresponding with?

    Will whoever is at the helm identify themselves or are we talking to sockymcsockerson#1 the vote tallier?

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    Maybe we could ram in a sub-clause that nobody can vote if they have joined Xnxx after the story challenge has officially started?
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    better still make it voters must have been here 3 months or more and have over 100 posts.

    would prevent a large majority of socks.
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    One idea that was bandied about was to create an account whose sole purpose would be to receive CAW votes. It would have an easily identifiable name, and its address would be included in the CAW threads. ALL previous CAW winners would be sent PMs by whomever initially sets up the account, giving those people (ejls, MrFors, smcaaphd, JayneyRedd, Elaken-Palmer, ahorsewithnoname, and myself, so far) the password to the account.

    All of us can check the math (and the integrity) of each other, but probably only the current CAW host (ejls) and one other person would actively tally votes and acknowledge them.

    Using the site-provided poll structure was fine. It was easy, it had a few options, but it had two fatal flaws: the 25-story limit, and the fact that it was set for eternity as soon as it was posted.

    During CAW #10, two writers got themselves banned, so their entries had to be removed. That blew the poll structure, so counting was done offsite by spreadsheet.

    There WERE errors in the running tallies in CAW #10. The fact that TWO people were counting independently of each other made it possible to fix that.

    What other option is there? If we go back to the old poll structure, that's fine. Assuming no one fucks it up for the rest of us.

    We are less than two weeks away from ejls' stated starting date for CAW #11. Let's get this settled now. We've had input from a lot of different people.

    If this doesn't work, we can all work together to come up with something else for CAW #12.

    For God's sake, people, it's a fucking challenge -- an unpaid amateur writing competition. ejls said it in her original post for the original CAW -- she double dog dared people to write something. That was basically it.

    ELP mentioned the Oscars, when discussing suspense and the thrill of winning, and he's right -- it's kinda cool. But it's really not quite that cool.

    Sheesh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELaken-Palmer View Post
    As far as political elections go, networks used to broadcast exit polls and early returns (from the east which is hours ahead of the west). West coast election officials had that process scrapped because people in California or Oregon would see Bush ahead by a landslide and then either not bother to vote or change their vote to Bush so that they are backing a winner. The proposed CAW changes will also stop that "front-runner" voting (for or against) and make all of this more fair for every entrant.

    And isn't this what we (as in all on XNXX) want?
    What a wonderfully big place you have there from those redwood forests to the Gulf Stream waters...

    One time zone here so we get polling counts and Political Scientists postulating outcomes from about an hour in.

    The front runner syndrome, yeah possibly but there has been one landslide (yours) most have been fairly close as I recall.

    I still think if the idea of just vote for the one you like best were to be encouraged this reluctance to vote would be diminished. Sometimes its just a convenient excuse anyway.




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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    better still make it voters must have been here 3 months or more and have over 100 posts.

    would prevent a large majority of socks.
    Good call m21 but rather think you just picked those numbers at random. Should make it 2 months and three days, and maybe 101 posts
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  32. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockaraus View Post
    Maybe we could ram in a sub-clause that nobody can vote if they have joined Xnxx after the story challenge has officially started?
    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    better still make it voters must have been here 3 months or more and have over 100 posts.

    would prevent a large majority of socks.
    Good ideas. How long can we stand the rules to be, though?

    Maybe that's something the individual CAW host could decide for him/herself.

    Or not. Some people have forum socks a hell of a lot older than some I have in my dresser drawer.

    Remember the sockmonster debacle in CAW #7? Even socks created just to join in the fight would now be about nine months old.

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  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    Since you have studied the proposal so carefully, I would like you to address each portion, one by one and tell me what you think should or shouldn't be there.
    Section One Fine as Drafted
    Section Two Fine as drafted
    Section Three Fine as drafted
    Section Four Time frames, Debate
    Section Five Don't agree with no posting prior.
    Section Six Fine as drafted, though there is deadline so why not just use that.
    Seven Debate. If you go with this 'closed to all but the official
    counters routine ' interest will die and the result, as I said
    before , will be an anti climax.




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  34. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    The front runner syndrome, yeah possibly but there has been one landslide (yours) most have been fairly close as I recall.

    I still think if the idea of just vote for the one you like best were to be encouraged this reluctance to vote would be diminished. Sometimes its just a convenient excuse anyway.
    There's front runner syndrome, and I suspect some readers who come late to the party will actually read only the top two or three stories before voting. The could assume that, since no one else liked a story, they wouldn't either. There could be merit to at least trying the "secret" tally, with results revealed at the end, if suspense is what you're looking for.

    Your second paragraph -- yeah. Voting shouldn't be the goal of this whole exercise. Writing and reading should be.





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  35. #155
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    This has become much more technical than it needs to be... sadly people will cheat... I have no idea why people will cheat but they will... wish some people would cheat for me... so that I could totally break the minds and wills of all the other writers... but that won't happen... I think the story needs to be on the stories site... speaking of which I posted a new one... well a new addition to one of my serials... no one sent me nudie pictures to convince me that I should write a particular story... and no ELP and WSF... I do not want nudie pics from either of you....
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  36. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    So your complaint is that the poll would not be available and updated in real time, for all to see?
    In part, yes. The secrecy aspect or potential aspect concerns me with voting by PM.

    It isn't enough to be run fairly and impartially; those interested have to see it is too.

    That was why I favor a poll; its a Site driven thing, we may have reservations on who's a sock and who isn't but we can trust the poll to reflect the votes cast.

    Speaking of a sock voting; so what. As long as only one vote is cast by the brain concerned there's no reason why that shouldn't stand.


    These things should be fun and exciting, especially for the entrants and in the effort to tie it up so no one can cheat it seems to me the fun part is going to go too.




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  37. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by m21 View Post
    I saw that problem after yourself and horse had explained. thanks.

    Would it be a good idea with PM voting to get members to CC their PM's to several counters, including at least one who is in no way connected to the stories board and who has no real connection to any of the writers ?

    Two people could easily fix the voting if they wished to (not saying they will).
    members might get a PM acknowledgement but no way of knowing if their votes has been actually counted.

    also it's been said that the counters can discount a vote if they choose to (for various reasons).

    i know it's difficult to come to a perfect solution but just thought i'd raise some points where some members might find fault.
    If the situation you have explained exists, then the voters choices should be made public in the final announcement.

    I'm not sure how one could discount a vote - one person/one vote. It's simple math.

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  38. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    Section One Fine as Drafted
    Section Two Fine as drafted
    Section Three Fine as drafted
    Section Four Time frames, Debate
    Section Five Don't agree with no posting prior.
    Section Six Fine as drafted, though there is deadline so why not just use that.
    Seven Debate. If you go with this 'closed to all but the official
    counters routine ' interest will die and the result, as I said
    before , will be an anti climax.
    4. Debate? A month to write. One day/submission to read. Two weekends and the days in between to vote, so that anyone away on vacation at the time will also have the opportunity to vote.

    5. Prior posting - we're going back to the original rules of the CAW. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. It levels the playing field because of the amount of time one can campaign (I hate that) and submissions coming in at the same time are easier to track. If the host were getting paid to do this I wouldn't care, but things have to be easy for them, also.

    6. Not sure why this is an issue for you. When all submissions are received they will be posted with all links that were provided to the host. Based on the number of entries, a voting date will be announced.

    7. Votes will be submitted to a CAW account that can be accessed by all former CAW winners. Voters will receive confirmation of their vote and will understand that voting by pm allows that their name and vote will be revealed in the final announcement. If they wish to announce who they voted for, that is their option. We're only talking 9 days between start of voting and end. I have no problem waiting to find out who wins. No one is here every single day, not even us. I don't believe a daily update is necessary.

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  39. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejls View Post
    4. Debate? A month to write. One day/submission to read. Two weekends and the days in between to vote, so that anyone away on vacation at the time will also have the opportunity to vote.

    5. Prior posting - we're going back to the original rules of the CAW. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. It levels the playing field because of the amount of time one can campaign (I hate that) and submissions coming in at the same time are easier to track. If the host were getting paid to do this I wouldn't care, but things have to be easy for them, also.

    6. Not sure why this is an issue for you. When all submissions are received they will be posted with all links that were provided to the host. Based on the number of entries, a voting date will be announced.

    7. Votes will be submitted to a CAW account that can be accessed by all former CAW winners. Voters will receive confirmation of their vote and will understand that voting by pm allows that their name and vote will be revealed in the final announcement. If they wish to announce who they voted for, that is their option. We're only talking 9 days between start of voting and end. I have no problem waiting to find out who wins. No one is here every single day, not even us. I don't believe a daily update is necessary.
    So really you're determined to go ahead with what was proposed originally.

    If you're dead set on ruining the thing go right ahead.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer View Post
    So really you're determined to go ahead with what was proposed originally.

    If you're dead set on ruining the thing go right ahead.
    Those are the points you object to - I offered explanation and am looking forward to other people's comments.

    Please note - I don't need your permission to go right ahead.

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