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  1. #1
    The Raging Horn
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    Angry A bunch of Bankers!

    Is it just me that thinks it's a bit rich (he he!) that when everything in the world of high finance is going swimmingly it's because of the skill and steady nerve of the traders and directors in the big banks, but when it goes tits up it's because of global economic conditions and it's completely beyond their control?

    Can I ask: Who created those Global Economic Conditions if not the Bankers (It's a tempting rhyme, but I'm resisting it!) themselves?

    And isn't it a little hypocritical to expect to be bailed out now by tax-payers' money when the last thing they've wanted for the last 20+ years was government interference while they feathered their next and bought that extra yacht?

    Am I the only one wondering why we're propping up a system which has so patently and obviously been proven unfit for purpose? Should we now be looking at ways to re-organise the world's financial markets to prevent this from happening again?

    What are the steps that would prevent it (apart from shooting all the fuckwit Bankers, of course)? Is the ONLY option to give them our money so they can lend it back to us?
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
    then ride to the valley like the old Light Brigade!
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    Is it just me that thinks it's a bit rich (he he!) that when everything in the world of high finance is going swimmingly it's because of the skill and steady nerve of the traders and directors in the big banks, but when it goes tits up it's because of global economic conditions and it's completely beyond their control?

    Can I ask: Who created those Global Economic Conditions if not the Bankers (It's a tempting rhyme, but I'm resisting it!) themselves?

    And isn't it a little hypocritical to expect to be bailed out now by tax-payers' money when the last thing they've wanted for the last 20+ years was government interference while they feathered their next and bought that extra yacht?

    Am I the only one wondering why we're propping up a system which has so patently and obviously been proven unfit for purpose? Should we now be looking at ways to re-organise the world's financial markets to prevent this from happening again?

    What are the steps that would prevent it (apart from shooting all the fuckwit Bankers, of course)? Is the ONLY option to give them our money so they can lend it back to us?
    as long as there is money there will be greed
    I'm just saying.



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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    Is it just me that thinks it's a bit rich (he he!) that when everything in the world of high finance is going swimmingly it's because of the skill and steady nerve of the traders and directors in the big banks, but when it goes tits up it's because of global economic conditions and it's completely beyond their control?

    Can I ask: Who created those Global Economic Conditions if not the Bankers (It's a tempting rhyme, but I'm resisting it!) themselves?

    And isn't it a little hypocritical to expect to be bailed out now by tax-payers' money when the last thing they've wanted for the last 20+ years was government interference while they feathered their next and bought that extra yacht?

    Am I the only one wondering why we're propping up a system which has so patently and obviously been proven unfit for purpose? Should we now be looking at ways to re-organise the world's financial markets to prevent this from happening again?

    What are the steps that would prevent it (apart from shooting all the fuckwit Bankers, of course)? Is the ONLY option to give them our money so they can lend it back to us?
    I'm having a bit of a "lost week" deja-vu moment as I type this. But yes, there is a solution - make a condition of financial bail outs mutualisation of financial institiutions. Shareholders, whether instutitonal or personal, should lose their stakes as a lesson to themselves and others about rapacious expectations and dodgy dealing. The government can limit public investment to ensuring the value of depositors investments, while the remaining assets of the bank will be the homes of its mortgage-holders. Oh and whilst I'm on a roll, lets proceed with re-nationalisation of utility companies.
    Last edited by tangleweb; 10-08-2008 at 08:10 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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  4. #4
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    and the system has to be propped up or there would be something akin to anarchy and a huge depression.

    Is it their fault ? Yes partly - but it takes 2 to tango and in this case borrow as well as lend the money
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbird View Post
    and the system has to be propped up or there would be something akin to anarchy and a huge depression.

    Is it their fault ? Yes partly - but it takes 2 to tango and in this case borrow as well as lend the money
    BB i've been repeating myself all over the forum.


    as long as the human races covets the value of money greed and corruption will be present. it's inevitable.
    I'm just saying.



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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbird View Post
    and the system has to be propped up or there would be something akin to anarchy and a huge depression.

    Is it their fault ? Yes partly - but it takes 2 to tango and in this case borrow as well as lend the money
    I know the people who borrow have a responsibility, BUT, and it's a big BUT all the financial institutions have been falling over themselves to lend to people. Mortgages have been available at over the valuation of the house, to people with no proof they can pay it back. Loans and credit cards are available all over the place and with so little credit chekcking that it's criminal. Major commercial empires have been built on the house of cards that is debt repackaging and refinancing and it all relied on the premise that there would always be plenty of money, property values would always rise, and no-one would default. Ever.

    To say that, faced with this situation, and the advice of the "experts" that credit and borrowing are acceptable, no actually not just acceptable but expected, the general public should have seen this coming and been more prudent is, frankly a dumb comment, Bigbird, and I would have thought you would see that.

    The issue, as Inky is prone to tell us again in a mo, is that people are generally likely to be greedy when it looks like there's a free lunch on offer, so closer regulation of the financial markets, tied to mutualisation rather than share capitalisation, would be a sensible starting point. Nationalise the banks (and the utilities, but that's another thread) then allow them to gain mutual status when the situation settles down. The focus should be their customers, not their shareholders. If you remove the shareholders you remove the pressure to make greater profits and the likelihood that big gambles will be made (such as lending to unemployed hick yanks who need help to sign the forms!).

    As for institutional borrowers, they SHOULD have known better, but were blinded by the profits they could make in the short term. Fuck 'em. Let 'em burn.

    If we just prop it up this time we'll be here again in a few years bailing the buggers out for all we're worth with taxes from you and me while they sit in their fucking yachts in Monte Carlo sipping their champers, old chap.

    This is a case of class warfare, and we're losing, mate. Wake up and smell the napalm!
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
    then ride to the valley like the old Light Brigade!
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    I know the people who borrow have a responsibility, BUT, and it's a big BUT all the financial institutions have been falling over themselves to lend to people. Mortgages have been available at over the valuation of the house, to people with no proof they can pay it back. Loans and credit cards are available all over the place and with so little credit chekcking that it's criminal. Major commercial empires have been built on the house of cards that is debt repackaging and refinancing and it all relied on the premise that there would always be plenty of money, property values would always rise, and no-one would default. Ever.

    To say that, faced with this situation, and the advice of the "experts" that credit and borrowing are acceptable, no actually not just acceptable but expected, the general public should have seen this coming and been more prudent is, frankly a dumb comment, Bigbird, and I would have thought you would see that.

    The issue, as Inky is prone to tell us again in a mo, is that people are generally likely to be greedy when it looks like there's a free lunch on offer, so closer regulation of the financial markets, tied to mutualisation rather than share capitalisation, would be a sensible starting point. Nationalise the banks (and the utilities, but that's another thread) then allow them to gain mutual status when the situation settles down. The focus should be their customers, not their shareholders. If you remove the shareholders you remove the pressure to make greater profits and the likelihood that big gambles will be made (such as lending to unemployed hick yanks who need help to sign the forms!).

    As for institutional borrowers, they SHOULD have known better, but were blinded by the profits they could make in the short term. Fuck 'em. Let 'em burn.

    If we just prop it up this time we'll be here again in a few years bailing the buggers out for all we're worth with taxes from you and me while they sit in their fucking yachts in Monte Carlo sipping their champers, old chap.

    This is a case of class warfare, and we're losing, mate. Wake up and smell the napalm!
    What irritates me is how getting into debt has become the norm of society...

    I graduated university in debt - a loan to cover tuition fees and living costs (no grants, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a job (public sector - tightly controlled pay rises, no bonuses). I start paying into a pension - stakeholder (no final salary pension schemes, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a mortgage for a house that at the start of the 1990's was worth one quarter of the amount I paid for it in 2003 - over inflated house prices, artificially kept high to keep the economy ticking over (this is, apparently, how Britain makes it's money now since we don't actually manufacture anything now - thanks Conservatives (special thanks to Mrs Thatcher) - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a loan to buy a car, next time it's due to be taxed it's going to cost an arm and a leg because it's a "gas guzzler" - it's a mid-size family car! (taxed to the hilt, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I've got to pay more for petrol, electricity, gas, water, council tax... on a salary that hasn't increased much, apparently to keep inflation down (deregulated profit making utilities, thanks to every Government who ever privatised anything - but that's a whole different thread! For keeping public sector pay down to control inflation, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    Looking to the future...

    1. Will I sell my house?
    2. How much more profit will I contribute to privatised energy companies?
    3. What will the state of my pension be given the piss poor performance of the stock market?
    4. All this money (£400,000,000,000) to "grease the wheels of capitalism" flooding into the system, what's that going to do to inflation?
    5. Will I pay more tax in order to allow this £400,000,000,000 to be available?
    6. Increased inflation will force the price of everything up, can I afford this?
    7. Nobody will be allowed to retire, we'll need all the taxpayers we can get. Will I be forced to work until I die?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor View Post
    What irritates me is how getting into debt has become the norm of society...

    I graduated university in debt - a loan to cover tuition fees and living costs (no grants, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a job (public sector - tightly controlled pay rises, no bonuses). I start paying into a pension - stakeholder (no final salary pension schemes, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a mortgage for a house that at the start of the 1990's was worth one quarter of the amount I paid for it in 2003 - over inflated house prices, artificially kept high to keep the economy ticking over (this is, apparently, how Britain makes it's money now since we don't actually manufacture anything now - thanks Conservatives (special thanks to Mrs Thatcher) - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I got a loan to buy a car, next time it's due to be taxed it's going to cost an arm and a leg because it's a "gas guzzler" - it's a mid-size family car! (taxed to the hilt, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    I've got to pay more for petrol, electricity, gas, water, council tax... on a salary that hasn't increased much, apparently to keep inflation down (deregulated profit making utilities, thanks to every Government who ever privatised anything - but that's a whole different thread! For keeping public sector pay down to control inflation, thanks Labour - but that's a whole different thread!)

    Looking to the future...

    1. Will I sell my house?
    2. How much more profit will I contribute to privatised energy companies?
    3. What will the state of my pension be given the piss poor performance of the stock market?
    4. All this money (£400,000,000,000) to "grease the wheels of capitalism" flooding into the system, what's that going to do to inflation?
    5. Will I pay more tax in order to allow this £400,000,000,000 to be available?
    6. Increased inflation will force the price of everything up, can I afford this?
    7. Nobody will be allowed to retire, we'll need all the taxpayers we can get. Will I be forced to work until I die?
    And everything you identify there is designed to keep the economy ina state which allows the big investors and institutions to make profits beyond what is reasonable, and they do it by searating you and I from our cash.

    And please, don't anyone give me trickle down economics because that simply is a lie put out to justify the way the system works to those that are on the wrong end of it. It doesn't help anyone but the rich.

    Why oh why are we being asked to shell out to keep this corrupt and unfair system on it's inevitable course? Sure it'll be painfl to change it but isn't the alternative more painful in the long run? It's like saying "We're on this wild horse and getting off it is going to be quite tough, but if we don't get off it'll kill us eventually." Which is the worst of the options available?

    Capitalism, I'm afraid, has failed all but the rich. This could be it's death knell. Let's hope so, eh?
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
    then ride to the valley like the old Light Brigade!
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    It's interesting how when times were good it was all about globalisation, but now the shit's hit the fan banks are looking to their own governments for support and each country is going it alone with "rescue plans" - everybody has all but stopped talking about globalisation.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor View Post
    It's interesting how when times were good it was all about globalisation, but now the shit's hit the fan banks are looking to their own governments for support and each country is going it alone with "rescue plans" - everybody has all but stopped talking about globalisation.
    Globalisation is what got us, the little people, into this mess. Trouble is it's also what has allowed the wealthy to cream off the riches and get away scot free, but most western governments have been complicit. Look at the former Tory ministers and the range of companies they were working for, either in consulting roles or as directors (eg: Mild little John Major has made fortunes working for an arms company and, I believe, doing "consulting" for Halliburton).

    this is why tey've been convincingus that politics is a waste of time. It's so we wouldn't be watching too closely. At least, not closely enough for us to see what's really going on. Sleeze shouldn't have had anything to do with sex scandals. It should have been about the bribes, backhanders, secret deals, promises and financial pension packages that were agreed for ministers in order to allow the financial markets and big business to operate however the fuck they wanted.

    Well, the chickens have come home to roost!
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
    then ride to the valley like the old Light Brigade!
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    Does the current situation make it even less likely that we'll join the Euro now?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor View Post
    Does the current situation make it even less likely that we'll join the Euro now?
    I think it's more likely that the Euro might join us!
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
    then ride to the valley like the old Light Brigade!
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    I never cared for bankers, and now I know why!!! I'm mad, who's going to bail us out??? Absolutely, no one will be there if we have a financial problem...This mess is killing my business!!!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockprincess View Post
    I never cared for bankers, and now I know why!!! I'm mad, who's going to bail us out??? Absolutely, no one will be there if we have a financial problem...This mess is killing my business!!!
    It's killing us all Hon:

    Only it's a slow lingering and painful death for us on "Main Street"

    I can not begin to tell you where this put me and my retirement.

    I only regret I had one life and with it I worked for a living, rather then steal (not really).

    May all that is good help you.
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    There is only one way to get back at them. Borrow everything you can and die. Spend the money first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incubus View Post
    as long as there is money there will be greed
    Quote Originally Posted by Incubus View Post
    BB i've been repeating myself all over the forum.


    as long as the human races covets the value of money greed and corruption will be present. it's inevitable.

    sorry Inc, this is naive . . . at best

    there has always been "money" and there always will be "money" - as money is only a symbolic, portable expression of "value". Before coins or printed paper, people used cows, beads and salt . . . all were "money" at one time or another.

    the key is to put in place economic rules that are fair, well-understood and consistently enforced - money itself has no intrinsic morality whatsoever.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    I know the people who borrow have a responsibility, BUT, and it's a big BUT all the financial institutions have been falling over themselves to lend to people. Mortgages have been available at over the valuation of the house, to people with no proof they can pay it back. Loans and credit cards are available all over the place and with so little credit chekcking that it's criminal. Major commercial empires have been built on the house of cards that is debt repackaging and refinancing and it all relied on the premise that there would always be plenty of money, property values would always rise, and no-one would default. Ever.

    To say that, faced with this situation, and the advice of the "experts" that credit and borrowing are acceptable, no actually not just acceptable but expected, the general public should have seen this coming and been more prudent is, frankly a dumb comment, Bigbird, and I would have thought you would see that.

    The issue, as Inky is prone to tell us again in a mo, is that people are generally likely to be greedy when it looks like there's a free lunch on offer, so closer regulation of the financial markets, tied to mutualisation rather than share capitalisation, would be a sensible starting point. Nationalise the banks (and the utilities, but that's another thread) then allow them to gain mutual status when the situation settles down. The focus should be their customers, not their shareholders. If you remove the shareholders you remove the pressure to make greater profits and the likelihood that big gambles will be made (such as lending to unemployed hick yanks who need help to sign the forms!).

    As for institutional borrowers, they SHOULD have known better, but were blinded by the profits they could make in the short term. Fuck 'em. Let 'em burn.

    If we just prop it up this time we'll be here again in a few years bailing the buggers out for all we're worth with taxes from you and me while they sit in their fucking yachts in Monte Carlo sipping their champers, old chap.

    This is a case of class warfare, and we're losing, mate. Wake up and smell the napalm!

    Sorry quick correction - i am a mortgage broker (lol - and previously a senior Bank manager) you cannot, and never have been able to get a mortgage in the UK for more than the property is worth without proving your actual income levels - or indeed that the mortgage was affordable.

    I would say that society is to blame - as well as the banks - the attitude of " i must have it now" rather than I'll have it when i've saved up enough to get it, is what has driven people in the UK in more recent years - so i return to the comment that it takes 2 to tango - and frankly there is alot of fucking bleating going on from people who knew damn well what they were doing, and now it's all gone pear shaped they want to just walk away .
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbird View Post
    Sorry quick correction - i am a mortgage broker (lol - and previously a senior Bank manager) you cannot, and never have been able to get a mortgage in the UK for more than the property is worth without proving your actual income levels - or indeed that the mortgage was affordable.

    I would say that society is to blame - as well as the banks - the attitude of " i must have it now" rather than I'll have it when i've saved up enough to get it, is what has driven people in the UK in more recent years - so i return to the comment that it takes 2 to tango - and frankly there is alot of fucking bleating going on from people who knew damn well what they were doing, and now it's all gone pear shaped they want to just walk away .

    You are obviously the man with more hands on experience. I have seen reports stating that mortgages were available to people for 115% of the valuation in the UK. I've also been aware of a lot of "Self certified" mortgages, where it is entirely down to the honesty of the borrower to declare their income, and I have read enough reports that show that plenty of unscrupulous providers (be they brokers or banks) have allowed this to happen because, at the time, the focus was on selling more mortgages, so they didn't check anything anywhere near as throughly as they should have.

    I fully accept that you, and probably a majority of your colleagues, would not do such an imoral and stupid thing, but I've seen enough reports that lead me to think that others don't share your ethics.

    The "now society" is to blame, partly, too. The question I would ask is How did our society cange from the one our parents knew, where to buy something you saved for it, to today's world where credit was far too freely available and material goods were worshipped and covetted? I don't think this is a factor of evolution. It's down to Kelloggs and the false expectations of a shiny modern life built up by the Cornflakes advert families. Everything is lovely and new and shiny and life is wonderful as a result. Whole generations have grown up with the aspiration, aquisative goals in life which have led to their willingness to buy the lie about credit being free money.

    And while it was all going off nicely the banks were more than willing to feed the donkey and make more profits. And why did they need those profits? To feed the donkey and make more profits.

    I'm not saying that individuals aren't partly to blame but the norms of society have shifted to the point where the behaviour of so many people cannot be described as abnormal or absurd. They were just doing what you do in Britain or America in the 90s and 00s.

    The end result of all this is that corporate profts soared, poverty increased, debt increased and eventually someone pointed out that the emperor was naked (the sub-prime fiasco shone a light on the lunacy of the situation) and suddenly the foundation (cheap credit for the banks) was pulled out from under the skyscraper we'd all built.

    And who, ultimately, are the winners and losers?

    Winners: Anyone with enough cash to be riding high already (Bankers, CEOs)

    Losers: Anyone who has to work for a living and make ends meet.
    Lets divide up the world into the damned and the saved
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    You are obviously the man with more hands on experience. I have seen reports stating that mortgages were available to people for 115% of the valuation in the UK. I've also been aware of a lot of "Self certified" mortgages, where it is entirely down to the honesty of the borrower to declare their income, and I have read enough reports that show that plenty of unscrupulous providers (be they brokers or banks) have allowed this to happen because, at the time, the focus was on selling more mortgages, so they didn't check anything anywhere near as throughly as they should have.

    I fully accept that you, and probably a majority of your colleagues, would not do such an imoral and stupid thing, but I've seen enough reports that lead me to think that others don't share your ethics.

    The "now society" is to blame, partly, too. The question I would ask is How did our society cange from the one our parents knew, where to buy something you saved for it, to today's world where credit was far too freely available and material goods were worshipped and covetted? I don't think this is a factor of evolution. It's down to Kelloggs and the false expectations of a shiny modern life built up by the Cornflakes advert families. Everything is lovely and new and shiny and life is wonderful as a result. Whole generations have grown up with the aspiration, aquisative goals in life which have led to their willingness to buy the lie about credit being free money.

    And while it was all going off nicely the banks were more than willing to feed the donkey and make more profits. And why did they need those profits? To feed the donkey and make more profits.

    I'm not saying that individuals aren't partly to blame but the norms of society have shifted to the point where the behaviour of so many people cannot be described as abnormal or absurd. They were just doing what you do in Britain or America in the 90s and 00s.

    The end result of all this is that corporate profts soared, poverty increased, debt increased and eventually someone pointed out that the emperor was naked (the sub-prime fiasco shone a light on the lunacy of the situation) and suddenly the foundation (cheap credit for the banks) was pulled out from under the skyscraper we'd all built.

    And who, ultimately, are the winners and losers?

    Winners: Anyone with enough cash to be riding high already (Bankers, CEOs)

    Losers: Anyone who has to work for a living and make ends meet.
    Trumpy - luckily my client base is Doctors, dentists, Accountants, Solicitors and barristers - so I have never had a need to "self certify" clients incomes - these mortgages and "non status" mortgages are where the problems have occured - foolish lending, foolish borrowing on the back of a rising property market.

    There has also been the problem of jumping in to buying property as an investment for the future - individuals gearing up massively to buy property as it is "safe as houses".

    Now clients with incomes of £100k + can afford some slack if there are no tenants etc - window cleaners on £10k pa cant - again foolish lending in these cases but greedy customer who wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

    !00% + mortgages were initially only available in the UK to the right customers - i.e. my client base where incomes grow quickly in the short term, and they can service the debt - the mistake was opening these mortgages to the general public - and that was greedy lending.

    The blame is shared mate - bankers were greedy ( i got out of banking as I didn't want to be a "salesman" I wanted to build a relationship with my customers) - but also there is a large element of greedy people as well following on the bandwagon
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  21. #21
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    The problem is, people never notice the warning signs until everything goes to hell.
    Lots of analysts all over the place, warned us years ago about what would happen and no one listened.
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    funny how salaries havn't proportionately risen in line with mortgages,

    £50,000 value over ten years ago................... £180,000, salaries risen by 300% in that time? well lame lemmings (and most of us are) fell for it and with us being held to ransom over rising commodities, this just compounds the issue.

    we will all pay for this in the short term, there is no question about this, as to the long term, as the major governments pump money into the banking systems they are more than happy to recieve the benefits in the longer term, that will further bulk up their bulging coffers.

    no money available for hurricane survivors ? ............. billions got for speculative investment
    no money for nhs, public services, ................. billions got for speculative investment

    all loaned, and shorterm arrangements, for long term gains
    there will be deficits all around, and it's us ordinary taxpayers that will have to further prop up a speculative cause

    i just wonder, when we will all be queing outside the soup kitchens, like in the 1930's,

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