Did Jesus actually ever exist?

[ShadowBane]

Right to sum up my view...

Did Jesus really exist? We don't know cause it was 2000 fucking years ago.

However, considering all factors, I believe that Jesus was a ordinary person who helped people, nothing more. After his death, the disciples had to convince people that their religion was true, so they fabricated the whole story to make people believe. In comes the roman emperor, who realizes the power the disciples had over people and made Christianity the official religion, using it to control the people.

Can i prove this? No. Are you entitled to your opinion? Sure. Just don't force it down my throat.

However, the one thing that is pretty much 100% certain is that the bible was written by man and full of lies. That much I can say.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by ShadowBane

Right to sum up my view...

Did Jesus really exist? We don't know cause it was 2000 fucking years ago.

However, considering all factors, I believe that Jesus was a ordinary person who helped people, nothing more. After his death, the disciples had to convince people that their religion was true, so they fabricated the whole story to make people believe. In comes the roman emperor, who realizes the power the disciples had over people and made Christianity the official religion, using it to control the people.

Can i prove this? No. Are you entitled to your opinion? Sure. Just don't force it down my throat.

However, the one thing that is pretty much 100% certain is that the bible was written by man and full of lies. That much I can say.

One does not need to believe in Biblical inerrancy to agree with me that virtually all of it was written by men, and perhaps a few women, who believed in what they were writing. Several epistles may not have been written by the saint the author claimed to be. This was a common practice in the ancient world, which did not have our standards against plagiarism.

[smcaaphd]

[RandyKnight]

[AZRIEL]

[RandyKnight]

[richief]

No, there was no Jesus son of god, the entirety of religious text is designed to control the masses leaving the learned few to live rich on the work of the poor.

Sadly all you that believe will never have it ever proven to you because at your death all your cognitive powers and senses will stop, you will cease to be like the turning of of a light. Such a pity most of your tenets are to do with getting to paradise and living well there instead of living well whilst you have the chance.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by richief

No, there was no Jesus son of god, the entirety of religious text is designed to control the masses leaving the learned few to live rich on the work of the poor.

Mathew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

James 5:1,4-6 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

---------

When the rich are mentioned in the New Testament they are often condemned. They are never praised. They are rarely praised in the Old Testament, and often condemned.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

Mathew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

James 5:1,4-6 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

---------

When the rich are mentioned in the New Testament they are often condemned. They are never praised. They are rarely praised in the Old Testament, and often condemned.

The irony of quoting scripture in a thread posing doubt as to the actual existence of the main character being quoted is chuckle-worthy.

I'll take circular arguments for $500, Alex!

[DS1980]

The omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, supernatural being, couldn't think of a better way to get his message across than putting himself into the body of a person to become his own son, perform a couple of magic tricks to an illiterate crowd, in a backwards part of the world. And then have a few people write things down a couple of hundred years later telling their warped, Chinese whispers account of the story, with the help of his divine inspiration.

For something with such supposed power and love, he is a bit of a petty, jealous and cruel cunt. And it if you believe in the Jesus myth, God not only supports the immoral acts of scapegoating and eternal torture for finite crimes, but also delivers the message in such a sneaky way, that two thirds of the worlds population are unable to believe it, damning them to an infinite amount of cruelty, but he loves you just the same.

[Old Tool]

[richief]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

Mathew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

James 5:1,4-6 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you...Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

---------

When the rich are mentioned in the New Testament they are often condemned. They are never praised. They are rarely praised in the Old Testament, and often condemned.

It also says in your bible that jebus rose from the dead after three days, I don't believe that, nor that he walked on water or fed 5000 with five loaves and a few fish. So as for a rich man getting into heaven it is no harder than a poor man as the place does not exist.

[smcaaphd]

Jesus does exist - he sells knock-off-designer sandals out of his transit van down the market every Friday *blink*

[AZRIEL]

[smcaaphd]

[AZRIEL]

[Cummmm]

Originally Posted by AZRIEL

...erm

[DS1980]

God doesn't heal amputees!!!














Unless you're a Salamander.

[AZRIEL]

[smcaaphd]

[shyguyy2]

488304_457907747562624_1635835139_n.jpg

[Lord_Coghill]

Firstly, I am not a Christian in any way. But I am a student of History.

Historically speaking, yes Jesus actually existed. He is mentioned in many different texts namely by the Roman consulate who allowed the Jews to execute him.

This does not prove he was the son of god, a god, or any other higher power twist you wish to place upon it.

But the actual facts are THERE, they do exist. You can look them up if you know how to use your google search function. They even thought
Pontious Pilot was a bible "made up" character until Roman records surfaced of him as did the reports he sent to Rome.

The bible contrary to popular belief is NOT a complete work of fiction. The majority of the people in it have been proven to have existed. Moses historically DID lead his people out of Egypt. Something very bad DID happen to Ramses legion who he sent out after them. We don't know what, but I seriously doubt that any "God" was involved. Almost every single story in the bible is confirmed or correlates with texts from other peoples in the region such as the Egyptians or Romans. The Hebrews left their own as well.

If you spent more time doing research, rather than asking the ignorant masses on a porn chat site you might be just a little bit better informed.

[Spinner_]

Originally Posted by Lord_Coghill

Firstly, I am not a Christian in any way. But I am a student of History.

Historically speaking, yes Jesus actually existed. He is mentioned in many different texts namely by the Roman consulate who allowed the Jews to execute him.

This does not prove he was the son of god, a god, or any other higher power twist you wish to place upon it.

But the actual facts are THERE, they do exist. You can look them up if you know how to use your google search function. They even thought
Pontious Pilot was a bible "made up" character until Roman records surfaced of him as did the reports he sent to Rome.

The bible contrary to popular belief is NOT a complete work of fiction. The majority of the people in it have been proven to have existed. Moses historically DID lead his people out of Egypt. Something very bad DID happen to Ramses legion who he sent out after them. We don't know what, but I seriously doubt that any "God" was involved. Almost every single story in the bible is confirmed or correlates with texts from other peoples in the region such as the Egyptians or Romans. The Hebrews left their own as well.

If you spent more time doing research, rather than asking the ignorant masses on a porn chat site you might be just a little bit better informed.

This is what I understand too. I don't believe in God either.

[Empress Lainie]

A better question: Does Incubus REALLY exist?

[Empress Lainie]

I have proof Jesus exists - I still have the sales slip from McDonalds that says Jesus is the manager.

[ladygodiva123]

I think he lived and was a prophet. He's mentioned in the Quran too. But no, I am not a Christian and never have been.

[ridgerunner]

does any of what we find to be existance exist?
or are we but a microcosm encapsuled within a single drop of rain hurling towards some windshield only to be left splat?
are we just the imagination oin the mind of some bug as he or she makes thier way into the path of a glowing etheral light that will zap us all in an instant?
or are we nothing less the the words on a madmans page as he writhes in hysteria?

[shyguyy2]

297585_406611546065687_750744191_n.jpg

[shyguyy2]

523181_261142930669353_1575007874_n.jpg

[Incubus]

Originally Posted by Empress Lainie

A better question: Does Incubus REALLY exist?

[Goddess of Night]

I believe historians have shown Jesus existed. Don't buy the God stuff at all though

[Incubus]

Originally Posted by Goddess of Night

I believe historians have shown Jesus existed.

name me just one of these "historians".

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by Incubus

name me just one of these "historians".

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

- Tacitus, from Annuals, 15.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

---------

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Cherstus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."

- Suetonius, from Claudius 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...esus#Suetonius

---------

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.[20]"

- Josephus, from The Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1)

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.[47]

- Josephus, from The Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

[Lord_Coghill]

Originally Posted by Incubus

name me just one of these "historians".

Your must be new to the internet. Allow me to help you in this most difficult of quests. www.google.com

[Incubus]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

- Tacitus, from Annuals, 15.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

---------

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Cherstus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."

- Suetonius, from Claudius 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...esus#Suetonius

---------

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.[20]"

- Josephus, from The Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1)

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.[47]

- Josephus, from The Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Originally Posted by Lord_Coghill

Your must be new to the internet. Allow me to help you in this most difficult of quests. www.google.com

What a load of crap.

that's what you want to use as empirical evidence for the existence of a mythical figure?

[richief]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

- Tacitus, from Annuals, 15.4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

---------

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Cherstus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."

- Suetonius, from Claudius 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...esus#Suetonius

---------

And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.[20]"

- Josephus, from The Antiquities of the Jews (Book 20, Chapter 9, 1)

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.[47]

- Josephus, from The Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Really, Wiki, you are actually using wiki as proof, well that is one hell of a history source.

[Hollywood_]

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by richief

Really, Wiki, you are actually using wiki as proof, well that is one hell of a history source.

Are you arguing that Tacitus, Suetonius, and Josephus did not actually write that? I have read The Annuals in part, and Claudius 5, and The Antiquities of the Jews in their entirety.

They did actually write that stuff. I posted links to Wikepedia because that is a source that is easily accessible on the internet.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by Incubus

What a load of crap.

that's what you want to use as empirical evidence for the existence of a mythical figure?

This is what you posted at the beginning of this thread:

Originally Posted by Incubus

Did Jesus actually ever exist?Well, we all know the routine when it comes to these kinda threads so cut the bullshit and let's dive head first into it shall we?

But this time let's try to stay on topic.

Who's up first?

Originally Posted by Incubus

by the way, this isn't about him being the actual son of god and all that. It's about whether or not Jesus the flesh and blood man existed in Jerusalem 2000 years ago as told in the bible

I have posted evidence that by the end of the first century AD the life of Jesus had come to the attention of ancient historians who were not Christians, and in the case of Tacitus and Suetonius did not like Christianity.

[Incubus]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

This is what you posted at the beginning of this thread:





I have posted evidence that by the end of the first century AD the life of Jesus had come to the attention of ancient historians who were not Christians, and in the case of Tacitus and Suetonius did not like Christianity.

I don't see how none of the stuff you posted could even be verified much less accredited as fact.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by Incubus

I don't see how none of the stuff you posted could even be verified much less accredited as fact.

What would you accept as evidence for the existence of Jesus?

[mo.bil]

Does it occur to anyone that the Romans wrote the history, not the Jews or Christians??

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by mo.bil

Does it occur to anyone that the Romans wrote the history, not the Jews or Christians??

Tacitus and Suetonius were Romans. Josephus was a Jew.

[deviousdave]

The complete and utter craziness of the fabrications in the bible that talk about the birth of Jesus, the fact they had to go to such awkward lengths to make some guy fit the prophecy, suggests that a guy called Jesus really did exist. If they were making it up, it would be easier and much more plausible to have him born in Bethlehem. So it is likely some deluded, but charismatic individual named Jesus, actually was knocking about in those times.

Hitch explains here.

[origen01]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

Josephus was a Jew.

albeit a Roman Jew. His works continue to be shunned by Jewish scholars because of his obsequious lip-service to the Empire.

Also the quotes found about Jesus in his literature could have been interpolations. I believe Jesus actually existed but Josephus is not a slam dunk in the affirmative...

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by origen01

albeit a Roman Jew. His works continue to be shunned by Jewish scholars because of his obsequious lip-service to the Empire.

Also the quotes found about Jesus in his literature could have been interpolations. I believe Jesus actually existed but Josephus is not a slam dunk in the affirmative...

The scholarly consensus is that the following passage was modified, but that something like it existed in the original manuscript:

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.[47]

- Josephus, from The Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

This includes the sentence, "He was the Christ." "Christ" is another word for "Messiah." If Josephus believed that he was a Christian, but from his other writing we know he was not.

It is frequently the case in a first century writing that our oldest manuscript is a thousand years more recent. It has been copied several times, so there are opportunities for someone to add or remove something.

[cougarlover64]

The man himself? Yes. Was he the son of some god? No.

[AZRIEL]

[MrBigFoot]

Sure for some it would be awfully convenient if He never existed... I can understand that

[baller16]

It's always amusing to see how many members here are experts on every subject they ever post about because they say so.

Christopher Hitchens is a fucking moron and a disgrace to journalism, by the way.