Israel and Palestinians to resume direct peace talks

[CFH420]

Then let it happen, holy shit. Someones gotta go! As long as we dont get involved, let the war begin.

[stumbler]

Just to further update the apparent hopelessness of my position, here's the Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, vowing that even the slowing down of settlement building will expire at the end of this month and will not be reinstated.

JERUSALEM — Israel's hard-line foreign minister said Monday that his party will try to block any extension of Israel's settlement slowdown, a move that could derail the recently launched Mideast peace negotiations. Avigdor Lieberman said the Israeli government must keep its promise to voters that the 10-month slowdown, declared last November under U.S. pressure in order to draw the Palestinians to the negotiating table, will end as scheduled at the end of the month.


The Sept. 26 deadline is a challenge for the fragile talks launched in Washington last week. The Palestinians say they will quit the talks if settlement construction accelerates, but not ending the slowdown could potentially bring down the Israeli government. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has yet to say how he will handle the deadline.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_706462.html

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Just to further update the apparent hopelessness of my position, here's the Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, vowing that even the slowing down of settlement building will expire at the end of this month and will not be reinstated.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_706462.html

Isn't it strange that the fundamentalists on both sides are doing their best to derail these talks, if I was one of those to believe in conspiracies I would voice the opinion that they are in collusion.

It looks despairingly like this is going to fail before it has begun, at least it wasn't given a sill name like the "roadmap for peace".

One more thought, why do we put so much time and effort into this place, this argument between two states, there are other places with conflicts that we don't worry about, why this place, is it politics or because of the area being the birthplace of the christianic judaic and islamic movements.

[kunoooz.com]

Thank you

[Tom_from_northumberland]

Originally Posted by McDick

The other alternative would be for the U.S and the muslim countries to stop meddling in their affairs and let them have a proper all out war, which will result in a clear winner, and a clear loser.

The winner takes all and makes all the rules. The whole issue could be resloved in a week or two, and generations of peace would follow.

yeah just look at history

like england in Ireland when oliver Cromwell was victorious

peace followed and no one else got killed

like in the real world a conquered people very really stop fighting for the freedom

[richief]

Originally Posted by kunoooz.com

Thank you

For some unknown reason posts like this make me want to be very violent, now as I can't be violent with the actual poster I have to go out and kick a kitten or puppy. So if you love kittens and puppies please don't put a stupid fucking post like this into a thread with a serious discussion going on.

[Tom_from_northumberland]

rich

do you really think the Israel government is trying for peace

i don't i believe this is another sop to manipulate the US government in to continuing to give them a free hand in Palestine
so a little at a time they can get what they want the complete elimination of the Palestinian people and their home land

the yanks really are a bunch of suckers when it comes to Israel

the Israelis have them wrapped round there little finger

talk for a while keep obama happy and things go on as before

[richief]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

rich

do you really think the Israel government is trying for peace

i don't i believe this is another sop to manipulate the US government in to continuing to give them a free hand in Palestine
so a little at a time they can get what they want the complete elimination of the Palestinian people and their home land

the yanks really are a bunch of suckers when it comes to Israel

the Israelis have them wrapped round there little finger

talk for a while keep obama happy and things go on as before

Peace in the middle east! What a shocking thought, the only way for peace to break out is if both sides sit down and work it out, this will not happen with outside interference, countries with vested interests on both sides push for peace but splinter groups or separate political movements will always disrupt this.
There is no solution at the moment not through war nor the peace tables till all parties on both sides want to sit down and work it out and are willing to negotiate and are willing to concede certain things.
What the rest of the world should do is walk away and let them get on with it, no more supplies for them, no bullets or bombs, no food or shelter. They can either fight till there is nothing left or realise that they need to sit down and talk.

The reason the US is so deeply involved is the size and power of the Jewish lobby, if Obama wants peace there he as to take a chance and ignore them, tell them no support, but then what chance of re-election, even if he wins they wait five years and there is a new president put in place with a lot of donations from people with interests in the middle east and off we go again the US is selling bullets and bombs, food and succour and the war continues.
Is there an answer? yes of course there is, what is the answer?

[Tom_from_northumberland]

Originally Posted by richief

Peace in the middle east! What a shocking thought, the only way for peace to break out is if both sides sit down and work it out, this will not happen with outside interference, countries with vested interests on both sides push for peace but splinter groups or separate political movements will always disrupt this.
There is no solution at the moment not through war nor the peace tables till all parties on both sides want to sit down and work it out and are willing to negotiate and are willing to concede certain things.
What the rest of the world should do is walk away and let them get on with it, no more supplies for them, no bullets or bombs, no food or shelter. They can either fight till there is nothing left or realise that they need to sit down and talk.

The reason the US is so deeply involved is the size and power of the Jewish lobby, if Obama wants peace there he as to take a chance and ignore them, tell them no support, but then what chance of re-election, even if he wins they wait five years and there is a new president put in place with a lot of donations from people with interests in the middle east and off we go again the US is selling bullets and bombs, food and succour and the war continues.
Is there an answer? yes of course there is, what is the answer?

not too happy with leaving them to kill each other but totally agree with the second half of you post

wonder what will happen when the growing Muslim population organises and flexes it political mussels

what amazes me is that the general American cannot see that Israel is making fools out of them

[richief]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

not too happy with leaving them to kill each other but totally agree with the second half of you post

wonder what will happen when the growing Muslim population organises and flexes it political mussels

what amazes me is that the general American cannot see that Israel is making fools out of them

The majority can see how the leadership of the country is being manipulated by all special interest groups, we have the same problem here, most countries have this problem due to the fact that you need money to run an election campaign. The hard thing to do is to stand up to the lobbyists, they have power and influence enough to create problems for any administration. In my mind lobbyists, lobbying and donations from lobby groups would be outlawed, but it will never happen.

As to letting them get on with there continual war of hatred, why not why should we be involved, why should our money go there as an aid donation, why should our troops be in the Sinai desert as peace keepers, why should we make ourselves targets for terrorists.
Once they are down to sticks and rocks they will approach the peace table, those that are left of course.

[Tom_from_northumberland]

Originally Posted by richief

The majority can see how the leadership of the country is being manipulated by all special interest groups, we have the same problem here, most countries have this problem due to the fact that you need money to run an election campaign. The hard thing to do is to stand up to the lobbyists, they have power and influence enough to create problems for any administration. In my mind lobbyists, lobbying and donations from lobby groups would be outlawed, but it will never happen.

As to letting them get on with there continual war of hatred, why not why should we be involved, why should our money go there as an aid donation, why should our troops be in the Sinai desert as peace keepers, why should we make ourselves targets for terrorists.
Once they are down to sticks and rocks they will approach the peace table, those that are left of course.

agree with you on the troops

i was more infavour of conditional aid and even handed support for all sides

as for the lobbying thats part of democracy but it should be bu individuals or groups

and professional lobbying should be maid illegal

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

Isn't it strange that the fundamentalists on both sides are doing their best to derail these talks, if I was one of those to believe in conspiracies I would voice the opinion that they are in collusion.

It looks despairingly like this is going to fail before it has begun, at least it wasn't given a sill name like the "roadmap for peace".

One more thought, why do we put so much time and effort into this place, this argument between two states, there are other places with conflicts that we don't worry about, why this place, is it politics or because of the area being the birthplace of the christianic judaic and islamic movements.

Let me take your last thought first. I firmly believe that is there were no oil in the Middle East Region there would be no world crisis involved here, and Israel and its Arab neighbors would have learned to get along by now.

But oil changed everything. It forced some allegiance to Egypt and made Saudi Arabia the powerhouse in the region. And the US/CIA actually installed friendly dictators in both Iran and Iraq.

And I think this is the proof of that. What was the US's real response to the hostilities and wars between Egypt and Israel? They essentially bribed Egypt into making peace with Israel by selling massive amounts of arms to both countries. Right after Israel, Egypt gets most of our military aid. We also helped arm the Shaw of Iran and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

All of that was to secure and protect a cheap supply of foreign oil.

But I also like your road map to peace analogy because I'm not sure this peace initiative has a plan let alone a map. This is the longest shot I've seen yet and my president and his administration could end up looking like Charlie Brown's baseball team.

I haven't even asked the question: Well, how bad is it? Let alone looked this morning.

PS I have gained a great deal of insight and I would say even different perspective on terrorism, and how to deal with it, from reading the discussions between you and Tom_from_northumberland as well as others in the UK who have experienced terrorism and found solutions. I really appreciate that.

[yetrokuj]

wars!!!!!

[stumbler]

OK, ok I might have found someone who endorses the same hopes I do about something coming out of these peace talks. And that would be Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. And at this point at least it appears just as insanely as I do.

JERUSALEM – Militants launched mortar shells into Israel and Israeli jets bombed targets in Gaza on Wednesday, just as Israeli and Palestinian leaders held peace talks in Jerusalem with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[COLOR=#366388 ! important][COLOR=#366388 ! important]Gaza [COLOR=#366388 ! important]militants[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] opposed to peace with Israel have threatened to derail the fledgling negotiations, and the Israeli military said eight mortars and one rocket hit Israel by mid-afternoon on the day of the talks — the highest daily total since March 2009. There were no injuries.


Israeli warplanes responded by bombing a smuggling tunnel along the Gaza-Egypt border, the military said. [COLOR=#366388 ! important][COLOR=#366388 ! important]Hamas[/COLOR][/COLOR] officials said one person was killed and four wounded.


In Jerusalem, little more than an hour's drive from Gaza, Clinton said Israeli and Palestinian leaders were "getting down to business" on the major issues dividing them, though there was no sign they were any closer to resolving a looming crisis over Israeli [COLOR=#366388 ! important][COLOR=#366388 ! important]West [COLOR=#366388 ! important]Bank[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] settlements.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100915/.../mideast_talks

[stumbler]

Here was a strange moment for me. There's been little to no news about the peace talks which I assume is in direct proportion to the progress they are making.

So I was surprised to see former president Bill Clinton get asked a few minutes ago on CNN about the Israeli/Palestinian peace talks and the next thing I knew he gave the most insightful and in-depth assessments of the peace process I've seen yet.

Clinton broke it down to different groups, coalitions, and organizations and explained how each has a role in the process and how those are gradually being brought into line and predicted Netanyahu will actually end up making an agreement.

Now, of course he could be flat assed wrong but I have to admit how knowledgeable and forthcoming he was. It reminded me of why I liked him as president.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Here was a strange moment for me. There's been little to no news about the peace talks which I assume is in direct proportion to the progress they are making.

So I was surprised to see former president Bill Clinton get asked a few minutes ago on CNN about the Israeli/Palestinian peace talks and the next thing I knew he gave the most insightful and in-depth assessments of the peace process I've seen yet.

Clinton broke it down to different groups, coalitions, and organizations and explained how each has a role in the process and how those are gradually being brought into line and predicted Netanyahu will actually end up making an agreement.

Now, of course he could be flat assed wrong but I have to admit how knowledgeable and forthcoming he was. It reminded me of why I liked him as president.

aaaah the mythical Middle East peace accord, last seen I the times of the mythical dragons and phoenixes.
Ok if it is true, will it last any longer than any of the others. I hope so but my brain says only one of dozens of interested of groups, coalitions, and organizations as to step out of line before the whole lot descends back into the mire we have now.

[InTheMindsEye]

So errr, are this Israel and Palestine having a fight then? What's that all about?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

aaaah the mythical Middle East peace accord, last seen I the times of the mythical dragons and phoenixes.
Ok if it is true, will it last any longer than any of the others. I hope so but my brain says only one of dozens of interested of groups, coalitions, and organizations as to step out of line before the whole lot descends back into the mire we have now.

And I probably did a terrible job of explaining what actually impressed me. It was the depth of Clinton's knowledge of all the different factions, most of which I'd never heard of, what their positions were, and what kind of deal would have to be struck.

It was like he was talking about how the democrats and republicans were going to break down on a piece of legislation to get it passed. Except I'd just never heard of any of these factions.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

And I probably did a terrible job of explaining what actually impressed me. It was the depth of Clinton's knowledge of all the different factions, most of which I'd never heard of, what their positions were, and what kind of deal would have to be struck.

It was like he was talking about how the democrats and republicans were going to break down on a piece of legislation to get it passed. Except I'd just never heard of any of these factions.

There are many factions on both sides, with such diverse interests, the Israeli government is made up of various politico/religious organisations some hard line others not, they are never heard of outside of Israel or these sort of talks as they really have no interest to westerners, but get lumped in together supporting one side or the other.
The Palestinians have the same issues, dozens of splinter groups named after martyrs or specific dates, all of whom we never here of as they are again lumped together in the Palestinian cause.
You think coalition government is bad, what we have here is coalition war.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

There are many factions on both sides, with such diverse interests, the Israeli government is made up of various politico/religious organisations some hard line others not, they are never heard of outside of Israel or these sort of talks as they really have no interest to westerners, but get lumped in together supporting one side or the other.
The Palestinians have the same issues, dozens of splinter groups named after martyrs or specific dates, all of whom we never here of as they are again lumped together in the Palestinian cause.
You think coalition government is bad, what we have here is coalition war.

Ok well see you've got the advantage on me there. I've looked at the different Israeli parties and followed their last election, but I had no idea how many different factions and coalitions there are on both sides and what kind of wheeling and dealing it takes to get some kind of agreement.

Its a lot the same here but at least we do have a funneling effect where nearly everything has to go through both houses of congress. In most cases at least some things get passed even if neither side really likes the end product. But they can and usually do find workable solutions enough to keep things going, not matter what the nut cases are saying on TV.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Ok well see you've got the advantage on me there. I've looked at the different Israeli parties and followed their last election, but I had no idea how many different factions and coalitions there are on both sides and what kind of wheeling and dealing it takes to get some kind of agreement.

Its a lot the same here but at least we do have a funneling effect where nearly everything has to go through both houses of congress. In most cases at least some things get passed even if neither side really likes the end product. But they can and usually do find workable solutions enough to keep things going, not matter what the nut cases are saying on TV.

Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a core of sensible politicians running their government, but as with all coalitions you have small numbers who can make the voting difference and unlike the UK and the US the people who make up the voting difference over there are the, and there is no polite way to say it, religious nutters, people like that church you have over there who picket soldiers funerals because of gay rights, religious extremists and bigoted racists.
They have a thin veneer of respectability but underneath it is raging hatred, Judeaic and Islamic.
That is why I fear that there will be no peace till the Darwinian process takes place.

[Tom_from_northumberland]

grow up all of you

Israel has no intention of holding successfully peace talks

peace talks are just one of the tools Israel uses to manipulates the USA while it slowly annexes every bit of land it wants and pushes the boundaries further out

it will win the home land it desires and create an oppressed people who will fight against them for hundreds of years

remember England's conquest of Ireland

when it comes to the middle east the USA is just Israels pupet

they say jump and Uncle Sam says how high

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

grow up all of you

Israel has no intention of holding successfully peace talks

peace talks are just one of the tools Israel uses to manipulates the USA while it slowly annexes every bit of land it wants and pushes the boundaries further out

it will win the home land it desires and create an oppressed people who will fight against them for hundreds of years

remember England's conquest of Ireland

when it comes to the middle east the USA is just Israels pupet

they say jump and Uncle Sam says how high

I'm already on record holding out some kind of insane hopes that something might come out of this but on most other days I would agree with every word you've said here.

Because that is another minority opinion I've always held. That the US has always given blind support to Israel while Israel continues to use war crimes, terrorism, murder and persecution to constantly expand their borders.

[Incubus]

Look at me, I'm Stumbler, I can talk about politics and social change and peace in the middle east.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Incubus

Look at me, I'm Stumbler, I can talk about politics and social change and peace in the middle east.

No I already knew you'd be feeling insecure this morning and need some major attention whoring after yesterday when someone almost put up more threads on the front page than you did.

Its OK Inky poo we all see you there jumping up and down screaming look at me a dozen different ways.

I see you. Now do you feel better?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

grow up all of you

Israel has no intention of holding successfully peace talks

peace talks are just one of the tools Israel uses to manipulates the USA while it slowly annexes every bit of land it wants and pushes the boundaries further out

it will win the home land it desires and create an oppressed people who will fight against them for hundreds of years

remember England's conquest of Ireland

when it comes to the middle east the USA is just Israels pupet

they say jump and Uncle Sam says how high

And meanwhile back in the real world now Palestinians and Jewish settlers are killing each other in gun battles in East Jerusalem.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...213929692.html

More Palestinian homes are scheduled for demolition in Jerusalem:

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...514500598.html

The UN is as usual totally impotent:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...715429597.html

Israeli Citizens are marching for more demolition of Palestinian homes:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...757856525.html

Israel is claiming Mosques as Jewish Heritage sites:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2...933403649.html

And Israeli citizens are opening fire on rock throwers:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...126872598.html

I'm not sure how it could get much worse for my side but at this point I'm horrified I'll probably find out.

[Tom_from_northumberland]

Originally Posted by stumbler

And meanwhile back in the real world now Palestinians and Jewish settlers are killing each other in gun battles in East Jerusalem.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...213929692.html

More Palestinian homes are scheduled for demolition in Jerusalem:

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...514500598.html

The UN is as usual totally impotent:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...715429597.html

Israeli Citizens are marching for more demolition of Palestinian homes:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...757856525.html

Israel is claiming Mosques as Jewish Heritage sites:

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2...933403649.html

And Israeli citizens are opening fire on rock throwers:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...126872598.html

I'm not sure how it could get much worse for my side but at this point I'm horrified I'll probably find out.

all of which shows the hypocrisy of the US government, Press and most of the People of the USA

remember the outcry when British troops opened fire on Irish stone throwers

it was called Bloody Sunday

i am not a USA hater but

UNCLE SAM IS A RACIST he values an Irish life more than a Palestinian life

[richief]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

all of which shows the hypocrisy of the US government, Press and most of the People of the USA

remember the outcry when British troops opened fire on Irish stone throwers

it was called Bloody Sunday

i am not a USA hater but

UNCLE SAM IS A RACIST he values an Irish life more than a Palestinian life

It seems a simple thing to say but what you have to take into consideration is the massive political influence the Jewish lobby in the US has.
Obama is pulling back from the Israelis, maybe not as fast as many would like, but Iran Syria and other interested Arab states have to wield their influence on the Palestinians to ensure a peace of any kind, which at the moment is not going to happen, Iran wants Israel destroyed probably more than the Palestinians.
The west and the middle east states all cry out for peace in this area but none will take the toughest of stances which would be to pull back, close the borders, refuse aid of all sorts, then wait till they come to the realisation that there is no food and you can't eat semtex or make a blintze from a stripped down M16.
When they are throwing rocks and eating grass and sand they will sue for peace and not before.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Tom_from_northumberland

all of which shows the hypocrisy of the US government, Press and most of the People of the USA

remember the outcry when British troops opened fire on Irish stone throwers

it was called Bloody Sunday

i am not a USA hater but

UNCLE SAM IS A RACIST he values an Irish life more than a Palestinian life

There is not a doubt in my mind that you are absolutely correct about this. I've watched it all my life and we can clearly see it today. We don't hesitate to fly drones into Pakistan and kill suspected targets as well as innocent people. You think they'd try that if the US thought Bin Laden himself was hiding in London or Paris? Not a chance.

We can also see it in the blind eye the US has always turned towards Israel. The US was instrumental in creating Israel and then just stood by while the new government of Israel used war crimes, terrorism, murder and persecution to drive the Palestinians out of Israel. The Palestinian people were not even officially recognized as a people until the 1990's and that was only after Yasser Arafat threatened to provide proof of the Ronald Reagan presidential campaign committing treason by cutting a secret deal with Iran to hold the hostages until after the presidential election.

Notice also that when our CIA overthrew governments in other countries those were never "white" countries.

Originally Posted by richief

It seems a simple thing to say but what you have to take into consideration is the massive political influence the Jewish lobby in the US has.

That's actually why its quite remarkable that president Obama has been willing to stand up to them. By an actual count (because they've done it several times in the past) the Jewish and Israeli lobby can put more than 1,000 dedicated lobbyists on the streets in less than 48 hours.

The Jewish lobby and just US Jewish people in general are also some of the largest campaign contributors. Don't ever forget how well money talks in this country.

Originally Posted by richief

Obama is pulling back from the Israelis, maybe not as fast as many would like, but Iran Syria and other interested Arab states have to wield their influence on the Palestinians to ensure a peace of any kind, which at the moment is not going to happen, Iran wants Israel destroyed probably more than the Palestinians.

You know that old saying about what a tangled web we weave when we start out to deceive. First we are not only instrumental in creating Israel, we also arm them to be one of the best armies in the world. Then we go over and overthrow the democratically elected prime minister of Iran and install a dictator. And meanwhile back in Iraq we're helping none other than Saddam Hussein come to power.

Then we look around today and wonder why things are so complicated and hostile.

And then when I think of complexities Iran just comes to the front. I really don't think Israel is as afraid of Iran as their other Arab neighbors are, but of course they will never admit that.

Originally Posted by richief

The west and the middle east states all cry out for peace in this area but none will take the toughest of stances which would be to pull back, close the borders, refuse aid of all sorts, then wait till they come to the realisation that there is no food and you can't eat semtex or make a blintze from a stripped down M16.

Once again this is what I've been screaming for for more than 20 years. Israel cannot even exist without US Aid. All we've ever had to do is stop funding both sides of this conflict at the same time and let them either make peace or starve.

Originally Posted by richief

When they are throwing rocks and eating grass and sand they will sue for peace and not before.

"Word" (as my old worthy adversary ShakeZula used to say)

And now for the WHAT THE FUCK of the day. I even had to spell it out in all caps, and will add highlights.

I mean by all outward appearances this peace process could not be going worse with people already fighting and getting killed, and Israel refusing to compromise on settlement building and Palestinian President Abbas threatening to walk out of the peace agreements if they don't.

And then today I read that Abbas might compromise on that.

Speaking to a closed meeting of Jewish American leaders in New York late Tuesday, Abbas made clear that he wants to continue the dialogue with Israel and signaled that he was backing away from his ultimatum.

"I cannot say I will leave the negotiations, but it's very difficult for me to resume talks if Prime Minister Netanyahu declares that he will continue his activity in the West Bank and Jerusalem," Abbas said, according to a transcript of the event obtained exclusively by The Associated Press.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_734567.html



Since fucking when does Abbas talk to the American Jewish leaders and vice versa. This thing is getting weirder every day.

[Tom_from_northumberland]

Originally Posted by richief

It seems a simple thing to say but what you have to take into consideration is the massive political influence the Jewish lobby in the US has.
Obama is pulling back from the Israelis, maybe not as fast as many would like, but Iran Syria and other interested Arab states have to wield their influence on the Palestinians to ensure a peace of any kind, which at the moment is not going to happen, Iran wants Israel destroyed probably more than the Palestinians.
The west and the middle east states all cry out for peace in this area but none will take the toughest of stances which would be to pull back, close the borders, refuse aid of all sorts, then wait till they come to the realisation that there is no food and you can't eat semtex or make a blintze from a stripped down M16.
When they are throwing rocks and eating grass and sand they will sue for peace and not before.

i agree about the Jewish lobby but that dose not stop the resultant action from the US being Racist

[stumbler]

I was talking with another forum member about how strangely quiet the Israeli/Palestinian peace process has been during the past weeks even the freeze on settlement building has expired and Israel is threatening to go ahead with more settlement building in East Jerusalem, and the Palestinians have threatened to walk out of the talks if they do.

But even at this stage it seems mighty quiet and makes me wonder what all is going on behind the scenes. When, I try to search, however, I come up with some of the weirdest sources.

Here's some Russian site (I think) claiming:

"These Israeli Government's plans are perceived with an extreme concern and disappointment in Moscow," it continued. "They contradict international efforts aimed a resumption of direct Israeli-Palestinian negotiations."

And then of course in the next paragraph its revealed:

Russia should play a more active role in the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, the Palestinian National Authority's spokesman representative said earlier this month.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20101016/160979317.html

I don't ever recall Russia or even the old Soviet Union taking such a bold and obvious stance, and it appears to pit Russia against the US or at least Israel.

In the meantime this is another example of what I've always seen as the REAL Israel. The ruthless bully Israel that is constantly trying to ethnically cleanse and expand its borders.

Its a story about the Israeli government repeatedly demolishing a Bedouin village inside Israel despite the protests of the Bedouins and other activists.

http://english.aljazeera.net/photo_g...512196166.html

[stumbler]

I also found this interesting today. Its a story about the Palestinians weighing their options if Israel refuses to halt the settlement building in east Jerusalem and other occupied territories.

Before reading the story I assumed the options would be either rockets or suicide bombers but instead it turns out they are weighing diplomatic options including going to the UN to be recognized as an official state.

That would of course seem impossible because the US has veto power but I think its significant that the US sort of joined Russia in expressing deep disappointment that Israel did not continue the freeze on new settlements.

So no I'm wondering if the international community with the US included is not getting ready to make an end run on Israel and create a Palestinian state. That would create an entirely new ball game and could even force Israel to vacate all Palestinian land and drop all their blockades.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

[richief]

It is coming close to the time for all states outside of Palestine/Israel to walk away and shut the door, leaving them to sort this out for themselves, a lot of people I speak to here have lost all hope for a peace accord that will last, they are saying it will never happen and this is the way of the mid-east, a culture of squabbling tribes who will never agree on anything in total, they will make and break alliances as it suits their short term needs.

After over sixty years of the most recent round of wars boundry issues we have reached mid-east fatigue rather like a marathon runner who has it the wall. Why after all the time, effort and aid that has been thrown at the area should we continue to care.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

It is coming close to the time for all states outside of Palestine/Israel to walk away and shut the door, leaving them to sort this out for themselves, a lot of people I speak to here have lost all hope for a peace accord that will last, they are saying it will never happen and this is the way of the mid-east, a culture of squabbling tribes who will never agree on anything in total, they will make and break alliances as it suits their short term needs.

After over sixty years of the most recent round of wars boundry issues we have reached mid-east fatigue rather like a marathon runner who has it the wall. Why after all the time, effort and aid that has been thrown at the area should we continue to care.

Glad I came back and caught this one because my response is tell that to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Here's a story about what came out of a seven hour meeting between Clinton and Netanyahu yesterday where apparently they struck a deal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_783217.html

And this whole thread is nothing but empirical proof and all past history of the improbability of that.

But I'm going to go out even further on a thin limb here and say that was before I watched a National Geographic special last night called Inside the State Department (I think it was). And that was one of the most amazing documentaries I think I've ever seen on anyone in our government.

I'm telling you they just threw the NGO crew in the plane and vans with them, let the chips fall where they may, and Clinton allowed more access to foreign, and domestic press than any pubic official I've ever seen, while at the same time sitting with the NGO crew and talking about the latest fuck up she'd just made and how she was going to correct it. And how you damned right in something as complex as trying to survive in this world there were going to be mistakes but you cannot let that paralyze you.

And you can't hardly get US Politicians to sit for a press conference let alone take questions from the audience in the US. Clinton stepped out and held press conferences and question and answer sessions in Pakistan with the Pakistani Press and audiences. That took some guts and she did not stand there and tell them what they wanted to hear. In fact at one point members of the audience were jumping on her about the drone attacks killing innocent people and she points out that is a terrible tragedy that she will take up with the government of the US but wouldn't be necessary if the Pakistan government was doing their own fighting in the war on terrorism.

It may be all as hopeless as ever but I've never seen a better horse in the race than Secretary Clinton.

[stumbler]

I thought this was interesting but I'm not sure its unprecedented. But here's a story on a Hamas leader saying they would be willing to accept the results of a Palestinian referendum concerning any peace settlement with Israel.

I'm not sure they're sincere or can be trusted. I'm not even sure if Hamas has said this before. Like the last referendum and Hamas' violent take over of Gaza immediately afterward. But it does seem to be another missing piece of past negotiations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_790432.html

[richief]

The sticky point of recognising the right for Israel to exist is still there, and Haniyeh is only representing one faction of Hamas, will the others fall in line and follow suit or will they keep up the attacks on Israel, I still see this as people using a sticking plaster on a broken leg, Admittedly HC is working hard at getting a deal, I just don't see it lasting. Both sides should be told this is the last chance saloon, fuck this up and we, the west, call in the bar tab, no aid or trade for either side, we can buy oranges and dates elsewhere.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

The sticky point of recognising the right for Israel to exist is still there, and Haniyeh is only representing one faction of Hamas, will the others fall in line and follow suit or will they keep up the attacks on Israel, I still see this as people using a sticking plaster on a broken leg, Admittedly HC is working hard at getting a deal, I just don't see it lasting. Both sides should be told this is the last chance saloon, fuck this up and we, the west, call in the bar tab, no aid or trade for either side, we can buy oranges and dates elsewhere.

This makes an awful lot of sense to me and I'm in total agreement. And I've believed for decades if we cut off all aid and assistance to Israel and the Palestinians we'd be amazed how quickly they could achieve a lasting peace.

[stumbler]

OK just to be fair and point out the games and jockeying for position never stops on either side, here's the US demanding the Palestinian's bury a study that says the Western Wall in Jerusalem is actually part of an ancient Mosque and has nothing to do with Jews.

OH yeah the Jews would give up the "waling wall."

Anyway, to even undermine my position even more here's part of the story.

JERUSALEM (RNS) The Palestinian government has pulled a report stating that Jews have no historic connection to the Western Wall following condemnation from the U.S. State Department and others.

The study, which was prepared by Al-Mutawakel Taha, a well-known writer and official with the Palestinian Ministry of Information, stated that the Western Wall -- the holiest site in Judaism -- is actually part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque complex, Islam's third holiest site.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_791298.html

[stumbler]

This may be equally insignificant but I have to admit at least its different. Brazil has officially recognized the "State of Palestine" as defined by the 1967 boundaries.

"Considering that the demand presented by his excellency [Abbas] is just and consistent with the principles upheld by Brazil with regard to the Palestinian issue, Brazil, through this letter, recognises a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders," it said.

The letter refers to the "legitimate aspiration of the Palestinian people for a secure, united, democratic and economically viable state coexisting peacefully with Israel."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...256198565.html

I didn't even know a country could do that, and of course, according to Israel they cannot.

"Recognition of a Palestinian state is a breach of the interim agreement which was signed between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in 1995 which said that the issue of the status of the West Bank and Gaza Strip would be discussed and resolved through negotiations," it said.

Such a move also contravened the 2003 Middle East roadmap for peace, which said a Palestinian state could only be established through negotiations and not through unilateral actions, the statement said, warning that unilateral steps would harm attempts to build trust.

"Every attempt to bypass this process and to decide in advance in a unilateral manner about important issues which are disputed, only harms trust between the sides, and hurts their commitment to the agreed framework of negotiating towards peace," the Israeli statement said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...256198565.html

[peter010]

finally some peace in the middle east but i have being told that when peace last for 7 years thats when the rupture will come...

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by peter010

finally some peace in the middle east but i have being told that when peace last for 7 years thats when the rupture will come...

I think you mean the Rapture. I Thessalonians 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

[richief]

Originally Posted by peter010

finally some peace in the middle east but i have being told that when peace last for 7 years thats when the rupture will come...

That will be painful.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

This may be equally insignificant but I have to admit at least its different. Brazil has officially recognized the "State of Palestine" as defined by the 1967 boundaries.



http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...256198565.html

I didn't even know a country could do that, and of course, according to Israel they cannot.



http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...256198565.html

More pitfalls thrown in the way by bit players who stand on the very edge of the decision making and yet with little demands and minor political decisions can cause trouble, what will be the next stupid demand/decision made and who will make it. I think like a comedy skit they will announce to the general public very soon that "they have agreed that they cannot agree". Sad but that is what I see happening next.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

That will be painful.

Well if politics makes strange bedfellows, religion has got to be a bed full of perverts. On the one hand many fundamental Christians still blame the Jews for killing Jesus. But then on the other hand fundamentalist Christians will donate money to Jewish settlement groups to keep expanding Israel's borders until they return to the Biblical Israel at which time the end of the earth will take place and Jesus Christ will return.

These from people who deep down inside don't believe the other one will ever get to heaven.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

More pitfalls thrown in the way by bit players who stand on the very edge of the decision making and yet with little demands and minor political decisions can cause trouble, what will be the next stupid demand/decision made and who will make it. I think like a comedy skit they will announce to the general public very soon that "they have agreed that they cannot agree". Sad but that is what I see happening next.

You could very well be right but as far as the next stupid demand or decision, how about this one. It's Palestinian President Abbas saying if they can't reach a peace deal he'll ask Israel to "take over the West Bank." WTF?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_792038.html

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

You could very well be right but as far as the next stupid demand or decision, how about this one. It's Palestinian President Abbas saying if they can't reach a peace deal he'll ask Israel to "take over the West Bank." WTF?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_792038.html

It seems Abbas is about to call the bluff of the Israelis and the detractors on the Palestinian side, he has a difficult job trying to govern the ungovernable while being forced into a corner by Israel, the building projects should stop, or be put under control of the Palestinian Auth. Let the Israeli's live there, if they want but pay rent to the right landlord. The PA, is fiscally reliant on western handouts, let them take some rent from the people who want to occupy their land, isn't that the way of people from there, to make money at any opportunity. (does that sound as bad to you as it does to me)

I fucking despair, in seven days I will be fifty and that is fifty years of this problem, skirmishes, all out wars, terrorism, death of athletes, assassinations, hijackings, student protests, failed peace accords.
If they do agree on something some bit player will put his hand up and try to tack a rider onto the deal, which will then fail. This fucking problem will outlast me and my children.

[WhaWhaWha]

Originally Posted by illbreakyoback

Give them back their land!

It was never their land. It was a desert and noone was using it. When Israel was created, Palestine ceased to exist. The creation of Israel in 1948, comes 26 years after the passage of the League of Nations Mandate of 1922. Britain was directed to create a "National Home" for the Jewish people.

What people fail to recognize is that Israel would have been happy to settle for what they had in 1948. But that wasn't good enough for Palestine who wanted to push them into the sea. Look what lobbing artillery at an Israeli farming tractor got them in 50 years. See what they get for starting a fight they can't finish.

http://www.nature.com/news/specials/...slam-map.html#

Islam is about greed and world domination. The Islamic conference consists of 57 member and 3 observer states. Geographically dwarfing Israel to a speck in the middle. Israel is the only free democracy in the ME. Israeli arabs have full civic rights and their own political parties. Jews have been forced out of every arab country. Israel doesn't want Gaza that's why they withdrew. If the Palestinians were interested in peaceful coexistence there would be peace.

The thriving Khatif region was plucked from 2-generations of Israeli farmers and handed over to Palestine in 2007. A bunch of welfare louts looted what they could and turned the rest into a wasteland. They complain they never had any economic leverage to work their own land. Why didn't they work these farms and turn a profit? "Mohammed, Hasan, Borat... come see! These pineapples do not explode at all! Is this some kind of ethnic trickery?"

Yet the little mental-case fanatics keep trying. Palestinian politics mandate that "most charitable" = "weakest". Like all PLO, they follow the laziest path of least resistance. As sad as it is to see them bear the loss of their own children, whom they hide behind and send into the battlefield, I say look at the bright side. The Jews need a summer retreat and Jordan looks ripe for the picking.

I'm going to borrow some phrasing from one of our more astute members:
Palestine - You are surrounded. You are a dying country run by little wailing bitches and uneducated bomb-vest-wearing douches. You won't amount to anything. Ever. Stop trying.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by WhaWhaWha

It was never their land. It was a desert and noone was using it. When Israel was created, Palestine ceased to exist. The creation of Israel in 1948, comes 26 years after the passage of the League of Nations Mandate of 1922. Britain was directed to create a "National Home" for the Jewish people.

What people fail to recognize is that Israel would have been happy to settle for what they had in 1948. But that wasn't good enough for Palestine who wanted to push them into the sea. Look what lobbing artillery at an Israeli farming tractor got them in 50 years. See what they get for starting a fight they can't finish.

http://www.nature.com/news/specials/...slam-map.html#

Islam is about greed and world domination. The Islamic conference consists of 57 member and 3 observer states. Geographically dwarfing Israel to a speck in the middle. Israel is the only free democracy in the ME. Israeli arabs have full civic rights and their own political parties. Jews have been forced out of every arab country. Israel doesn't want Gaza that's why they withdrew. If the Palestinians were interested in peaceful coexistence there would be peace.

The thriving Khatif region was plucked from 2-generations of Israeli farmers and handed over to Palestine in 2007. A bunch of welfare louts looted what they could and turned the rest into a wasteland. They complain they never had any economic leverage to work their own land. Why didn't they work these farms and turn a profit? "Mohammed, Hasan, Borat... come see! These pineapples do not explode at all! Is this some kind of ethnic trickery?"

Yet the little mental-case fanatics keep trying. Palestinian politics mandate that "most charitable" = "weakest". Like all PLO, they follow the laziest path of least resistance. As sad as it is to see them bear the loss of their own children, whom they hide behind and send into the battlefield, I say look at the bright side. The Jews need a summer retreat and Jordan looks ripe for the picking.

I'm going to borrow some phrasing from one of our more astute members:
Palestine - You are surrounded. You are a dying country run by little wailing bitches and uneducated bomb-vest-wearing douches. You won't amount to anything. Ever. Stop trying.

This would make a really good story if the Government of Israel had not resorted to terrorism, murder, assassination and war crimes to drive the Palestinians off their land in the first place.

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/fu...ys/rokach.html

But if Israel is all you say Israel is Israel should be able to survive on its own with out being the biggest recipient of US foreign aid shouldn't they?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by WhaWhaWha

It was never their land. It was a desert and noone was using it. When Israel was created, Palestine ceased to exist. The creation of Israel in 1948, comes 26 years after the passage of the League of Nations Mandate of 1922. Britain was directed to create a "National Home" for the Jewish people.

What people fail to recognize is that Israel would have been happy to settle for what they had in 1948. But that wasn't good enough for Palestine who wanted to push them into the sea. Look what lobbing artillery at an Israeli farming tractor got them in 50 years. See what they get for starting a fight they can't finish.

http://www.nature.com/news/specials/...slam-map.html#

Islam is about greed and world domination. The Islamic conference consists of 57 member and 3 observer states. Geographically dwarfing Israel to a speck in the middle. Israel is the only free democracy in the ME. Israeli arabs have full civic rights and their own political parties. Jews have been forced out of every arab country. Israel doesn't want Gaza that's why they withdrew. If the Palestinians were interested in peaceful coexistence there would be peace.

The thriving Khatif region was plucked from 2-generations of Israeli farmers and handed over to Palestine in 2007. A bunch of welfare louts looted what they could and turned the rest into a wasteland. They complain they never had any economic leverage to work their own land. Why didn't they work these farms and turn a profit? "Mohammed, Hasan, Borat... come see! These pineapples do not explode at all! Is this some kind of ethnic trickery?"

Yet the little mental-case fanatics keep trying. Palestinian politics mandate that "most charitable" = "weakest". Like all PLO, they follow the laziest path of least resistance. As sad as it is to see them bear the loss of their own children, whom they hide behind and send into the battlefield, I say look at the bright side. The Jews need a summer retreat and Jordan looks ripe for the picking.

I'm going to borrow some phrasing from one of our more astute members:
Palestine - You are surrounded. You are a dying country run by little wailing bitches and uneducated bomb-vest-wearing douches. You won't amount to anything. Ever. Stop trying.

Well not really. That was part of the original problem. The Israeli government discrimination against Arab citizens. Which has not really stopped.

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?

Israel's 1948 Declaration of Independence promised "full and equal citizenship and due representation" for Arab citizens of the state. Today, Israeli Arabs enjoy voting rights and welfare benefits similar to those of Jewish citizens. But none of Israel's national symbols, such as the Star of David flag, represent their heritage.
The original paradigm of relations was based on a mix of civic and individual rights, integration, and quasi-autonomous rights in education and religion. But they faced discriminatory government policies, says Elie Rekhess, former adviser to the Israeli government on Israeli Arab affairs.
"It's a restricted equality, because in certain areas Jews and Arabs are not equal, emanating from the fact that Israel is a Jewish state and there is no such thing as an Israeli nationality that is all inclusive," says Professor Rekhess, now at Northwestern University in Chicago. "The paradigm is falling apart."
Arabs make up much of Israel's underclass. They are underrepresented in government as well as business. Arab parties have never been part of the ruling coalition government. Not until 2004 was an Arab appointed to a permanent spot on the Supreme Court. And only in 2006 did Israel see its first Arab minister in government.
Among the findings of the IDI survey released this week:

• Only 51 percent of Israelis said that Jewish and Arab citizens should have equal rights.
• 62 percent of Jewish respondents said that Israeli Arabs' views on security and foreign affairs should not be considered so long as Israel is in conflict with the Palestinians.
• 53 percent said the state has the right to encourage Arabs to emigrate.
• 33 percent supported putting Arabs in internment camps if war breaks out.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middl...-Arab-minority

[WhaWhaWha]

CS Monitor? That's where you go for world opinion? My wife is a faith based award winning Catholic journalist who endeavors to respect every world view you can name. And a few you can't. And she openly rejects the CS Monitor. She wouldn't endorse that rag for wrapping fish or lining the bottom of a birdcage.

Originally Posted by stumbler

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?

Israel's 1948 Declaration of Independence promised "full and equal citizenship and due representation" for Arab citizens of the state. Today, Israeli Arabs enjoy voting rights and welfare benefits similar to those of Jewish citizens. But none of Israel's national symbols, such as the Star of David flag, represent their heritage.

Their choice to remain exclusive, not Israel's. Beggers can't be choosers can they?

Originally Posted by stumbler

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?
The original paradigm of relations was based on a mix of civic and individual rights, integration, and quasi-autonomous rights in education and religion. But they faced discriminatory government policies, says Elie Rekhess, former adviser to the Israeli government on Israeli Arab affairs.

Because Palestine wants to dismantle educational institutions that promote democratic thought, jewish culture, and anything else not in league with Sharia and scholarly lessons that teach you where it's best to splatter the acid in a womans face or apply the bonesaw when cutting the hands off infidels.

Originally Posted by stumbler

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?
"It's a restricted equality, because in certain areas Jews and Arabs are not equal, emanating from the fact that Israel is a Jewish state and there is no such thing as an Israeli nationality that is all inclusive," says Professor Rekhess, now at Northwestern University in Chicago. "The paradigm is falling apart."

The Knesset supports and encourages the involvement all Arab leaders in a democratic process. But Palestinians wont have any part of democracy or anything jewish, so they opt out.

Originally Posted by stumbler

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?
Arabs make up much of Israel's underclass. They are underrepresented in government as well as business. Arab parties have never been part of the ruling coalition government. Not until 2004 was an Arab appointed to a permanent spot on the Supreme Court. And only in 2006 did Israel see its first Arab minister in government.

Because they reject everything Jewish, so they refuse to take part in any labor or business markets that do not boycott Jews. That leaves very little, so most of them are welfare louts, protest-marching leeches, or terrorists.

Originally Posted by stumbler

Are they equal in Israel's democracy?
Among the findings of the IDI survey released this week:

1. Only 51 percent of Israelis said that Jewish and Arab citizens should have equal rights.
2. 62 percent of Jewish respondents said that Israeli Arabs' views on security and foreign affairs should not be considered so long as Israel is in conflict with the Palestinians.
3. 53 percent said the state has the right to encourage Arabs to emigrate.
4. 33 percent supported putting Arabs in internment camps if war breaks out.

#1 - Sauce? Israel's Parliament does not rely on the views in this poll for setting policy.
#2 - That just makes good security sense. The whole world is obnoxiously patting down the private parts of its citizens in airports and border crossings because fanatical Arab world views promote policies which justify blowing shit up every way and every chance they get.
#3 - Only 3,400 of them left in Palestine. And so many Arab friendly nations to the east west north and south with over a billion of their brothers and sisters. Why are they staying if not to close in on the last speck of non Islamic controlled proprty in the ME? It's their choice. But if they dont like it they should follow their brothers and sisters and just move already.
#4 - Sauce? Israel's Parliament would never support the views in this poll. And even you know that.