Israel and Palestinians to resume direct peace talks

[CFH420]

Originally Posted by stumbler

But we should then allow the Palestinians to perish?

I don't think so. The only really fair thing to do would be to cut off all aid and support to both the Palestinians and Israel until they reach a meaningful peace agreement or one kills all the others, which ever comes first.

Ugh

Sadly I agree with your obama loving ass.

Israel has no right to exist, other then us backing them up. They are a very disturbing people who think they have the right to things. I once heard a jewish man tell me "No, see, Israel is where we put our foot down" I wanted to tell him "you mean Israel is where America allows you to exist? If it wasn't for us your people would be decimated" but he is a nice guy I didn't want to hurt his feelings.

One day something horrible will happen there, it will spark up some controversy.

[richief]

Originally Posted by CFH420

Ugh

Sadly I agree with your obama loving ass.

Israel has no right to exist, other then us backing them up. They are a very disturbing people who think they have the right to things. I once heard a jewish man tell me "No, see, Israel is where we put our foot down" I wanted to tell him "you mean Israel is where America allows you to exist? If it wasn't for us your people would be decimated" but he is a nice guy I didn't want to hurt his feelings.

One day something horrible will happen there, it will spark up some controversy.

It already has, christianity and judaism.

[smcaaphd]

Stumbler - I'd like to address the last paragraph in your last post:

Israel will, I fear, "...deal with a non-violent protest movement on the part of the Palestinians." in exactly the same way as they have always done: meeting peaceful resistance with violent exchange.

The world's media appear, by and large, to omit reporting on the deaths of Palestinians during peaceful protests.

Unfortunately, I can't see the "Arab Spring" being dealt with any different than any other protest in Palestine/Israel.

Even the BBC are jumping on the bandwagon. BBC radio 1 extra removed the words 'FREE PALESTINE' from Mic Righteous' 'Fire in the booth' song, which was replayed on April 30th.

Since when did 'Palestine' become a dirty word in what was previously regarded as one of the finest reporting institutions in the world?

Story here

Recording here

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by smcaaphd

Stumbler - I'd like to address the last paragraph in your last post:

Israel will, I fear, "...deal with a non-violent protest movement on the part of the Palestinians." in exactly the same way as they have always done: meeting peaceful resistance with violent exchange.

The world's media appear, by and large, to omit reporting on the deaths of Palestinians during peaceful protests.

Unfortunately, I can't see the "Arab Spring" being dealt with any different than any other protest in Palestine/Israel.

Even the BBC are jumping on the bandwagon. BBC radio 1 extra removed the words 'FREE PALESTINE' from Mic Righteous' 'Fire in the booth' song, which was replayed on April 30th.

Since when did 'Palestine' become a dirty word in what was previously regarded as one of the finest reporting institutions in the world?

Story here

Recording here

While I certainly agree and have stated many times that it was State of Israel that resorted to terrorism, murder, and war crimes to drive the Palestinians out, and have continued to do so ever since one reason they can get away with it is because some fool is always firing a rocket at them.

Take that away and you take away their only excuse.

And I would not underestimate this so called Arab Spring movement and what it might do to Israel and the Palestinians. Its basically the same age group driving the uprisings and I've never seen anything create more changes in the Middle East in a shorter period of time.

It does seem to be contagious and is directly or indirectly effecting every country in the Middle East. And I can understand why young Palestinians think they have more to lose than anyone else by allowing the same entrenched positions and people to dictate a stalemate.

Now, admittedly, I'll probably prove myself wrong on that point but its something I think is worth pondering and watching.

[stumbler]

It doesn't appear Palestinian Protesters were treated much better by the Egyptian security forces and I'm actually really surprised about that. I'd have thought the "new" government would be a little more tolerant of protests.

Security forces fire on Cairo 'Nakba' rally

At least 353 people were injured, one of them critically, when Egyptian security forces attacked a pro-Palestine demonstration outside the Israeli embassy in Cairo on Sunday night, according to witnesses and the Health Ministry.


Activists told Al Jazeera that army and internal security troops used tear gas, rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition to disperse thousands of protesters who had gathered to mark the 63rd anniversary of the "Nakba" or "catastrophe" - the day in 1948 that Israel declared its independence and thousands of Palestinians fled or were expelled form their homes.


At least two protesters were shot by live ammunition, while others were hospitalised after inhaling tear gas or being hit by rubber-coated steel bullets, some of which penetrated the skin, witnesses said.


One protester, Atef Yehia, was shot in the head, while another, Ali Khalaf, was shot in the abdomen. Both survived, though Yehia was being kept on a ventilator and would likely suffer brain damage, his friend said on Monday afternoon.



The crackdown on the protest also marked a setback for activists campaigning to limit the military's judicial power in post-revolutionary Egypt. A senior police officer told Al Jazeera that 137 protesters had been arrested and would be questioned by a military prosecutor. As they awaited questioning, the protesters was being held in Hikestep military prison on the outskirts of Cairo, according to activists and a human-rights lawyer.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...445325517.html

[jmas]

Originally Posted by stumbler

While I certainly agree and have stated many times that it was State of Israel that resorted to terrorism, murder, and war crimes to drive the Palestinians out, and have continued to do so ever since one reason they can get away with it is because some fool is always firing a rocket at them.

What if the Israelis fire some of the rockets themselves? Just food for thought. I'm not making any allegations.

Though it would be insane, unthinkable and utterly disgusting, would it be impossible?

If you missed it the first time: I'm not making any allegations, just a thought!
I like the idea of cutting aid to both and letting them sort it out themselves. Makes sense.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by jmas

What if the Israelis fire some of the rockets themselves? Just food for thought. I'm not making any allegations.

Though it would be insane, unthinkable and utterly disgusting, would it be impossible?

If you missed it the first time: I'm not making any allegations, just a thought!
I like the idea of cutting aid to both and letting them sort it out themselves. Makes sense.

Far from impossible I'm confident Israel has staged several false terrorist attacks and false reports to justify dropping cluster bombs on civilians. So a false rocket or mortar would be no trick at all for Israel.

[stumbler]

I'll be watching the news channels all day to SEE how this meeting turns out. And what I mean by "see" is that since we can never believe what they say the only truth we might get is in their body language and any visible tension between Obama and Netanyahu.

But at least in my experience I've never seen a President of the US take on Israel the way President Obama did yesterday by not only endorsing an independent Palestinian State but also defining it by the 1967 borders.

That's fucking huge because Israel has grabbed a lot of land since 1967 and prospered greatly from their occupied territories and giving them up is something vehemently opposed by many in Netanyahu's party. So I'm betting Netanyahu is pissed and might even suspect the timing was partially pay back for some of the perceived slights Israel has given the US since Obama became president.

Of course, that all depends on if President Obama can walk the walk instead of just talk the talk, and that's a big IF because Israel has a great many very wealthy and influential friends in the US. In fact standing up to Israel or just failing to support them has been political suicide in the past.

But I notice a very strange quiet spreading over the land that makes me think President Obama has successfully called Netanyahu's and Israel's bluff. And that's the relative silence coming out of congress and especially the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers.

It used to be that if someone criticized Israel the Israeli lobby would have 1,000 lobbyists on the streets of Washington DC within 48 hours, and we would have news conferences called by a few dozen Senators and Congressmen praising and supporting Israel within days.

This could be seen as the biggest affront and threat to the wishes of Israel ever perpetuated by a US President and yet its the sounds of silence that are the loudest.

[Distant Lover]

If the Arabs had accepted the UN Partition of 1947 the area would be at peace. The Arabs kept trying to destroy Israel. They kept paying the price for their aggression.

The Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and the Sinai Peninsula were the legitimate spoils of a just war. Immediately after the Six Day War the non Christian Arabs should have been expelled, and the conquered land should have been formally annexed. Egypt should have been told that the next time they start a war with Israel they would lose control of the Suez Canal

Few people in the United States would have cared. We were too busy celebrating the splendid Israeli victory.

[stumbler]

Just a minor clarification. It ain't 1947 anymore.

[stumbler]

I haven't see or heard anything new in the stalled Israel/Palestine peace negotiations but on the other hand I also haven't heard about tens of thousands of protesters taking to the streets in Israel either.

Especially when it doesn't have anything to do with the peace negotiations or any other conflict.

This looks more like the Arab Spring kinds of protest where crowds estimated at near or above 100,000 are protesting for social justice; in Israel.

Tens of thousands protest cost of living in Israel

TEL AVIV — Between 80,000 and 120,000 protesters demonstrated, according to police and media estimates demanding "social justice."
More than 50,000 marched in downtown Tel Aviv, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told AFP.


"I came because I cannot make ends meet and taxes end up in the pockets of the rich," one of the protesters, who runs a nursery school, said.


In Jerusalem, 15,000 protesters gathered outside the residence of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu holding up banners that read: "A whole generation wants a future."


In the northern city of Haifa more than 10,000 protesters took to the streets, police said.


Demonstrations over the high cost of living spread in recent weeks throughout Israel, with demonstrators setting up protest camps to demand affordable housing and denounce social inequalities.
The protesters, mainly secular youths, say they are pushing for "social justice not charity" and have denounced the deterioration in public services, namely health care and in education.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/3...ing-in-israel/

[stumbler]

Ok now guess what? After all the hostility and rhetoric that erupted after President Obama said Israel and the Palestinians must reach a peace settlement based on the pre-1967 borders Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu suddenly announced a couple days ago that Israel and the Palestinians should resume peace negotiations with no pre-conditions.

That actually should have been a pretty big announcement but instead since it seemed to fall on dead ears Netanyahu is now publicly stating they should negotiate with the Palestinians on the Pre-1967 borders.

Wow, what a complete change of heart all of a sudden. What do you suppose caused that?


Israel 'sees border talks if PA drops UN bid'
Prime minister said to be willing to negotiate pre-1967 borders if Palestinians do not seek UN recognition next month.

Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu wants to negotiate borders with the Palestinian Authority (PA), according to local media reports, in an attempt to head off a Palestinian bid for statehood at the United Nations next month.


The exact details of Netanyahu's proposal are unclear. Israel's Army Radio and Channel 2 television both reported on Tuesday that Netanyahu was willing to hold talks based on the pre-war 1967 borders.

Earlier this year, Netanyahu had said that Israel "cannot return to the indefensible 1967 lines".


AFP quoted an unnamed Israeli official who said the borders would be the basis for talks.


But a separate report from the Reuters news agency, quoting another unnamed official, said the proposal would not mention 1967 borders, though it could include borders "that would be difficult for Israel to accept".


The reports say Netanyahu would agree to the talks if the PA drops its UN bid.



They also say that Netanyahu will demand the PA recognise Israel as a "Jewish state," something it has publicly refused to do - though Al Jazeera's publication of The Palestine Papers revealed that Palestinian officials accepted that demand in private.


Netanyahu reportedly made his proposal on Monday during a closed-door meeting of the Knesset's foreign affairs and defence committee.


The Israeli government has not made any official statement on the reports, and Netanyahu's office did not respond to a request for comment.


If the reports are accurate, Netanyahu's proposal would be a major policy shift; he has previously refused to accept the 1967 lines as a foundation for talks.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...413548137.html

I think its pretty clear now that president Obama was right to warn Netanyahu that unless they returned to negotiations with the Palestinians they US would be unable to prevent the Palestinians from going to the UN seeking UN recognition as an official state.

[stumbler]

Did any of you know there's a 5-Star Hotel in Gaza? I sure didn't and it just sounds insane. But I'm wondering if they know something we don't?

Arcmed Al-Mashtal Hotel: New 5-Star Resort Opens Amid Poverty In Gaza Strip



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_920101.html

[stumbler]

Here's another signal the Palestinians are preparing to seek Independent State Status in the UN which would tend to set up another showdown that would depend on a US Veto to stop.

What I didn't find on it, however, was a date of when this might happen which I'm pretty sure will quickly become a major US campaign issue.

RAMALLAH, West Bank -- A leading Palestinian official says the Palestinians will ask the U.N. Security Council to support their statehood bid – something that would set the stage for a showdown with the U.S.

The Palestinians' general plan to approach the United Nations has long been known, but Sunday's comments by legislator Hanan Ashrawi are the first clear indication they plan to take their bid to the Security Council, despite an expected U.S. veto.


She says the Palestinians hope the U.S. will abstain rather than veto a statehood request.


Ashrawi says the Palestinians would also seek the backing of the U.N. General Assembly, where majority support is assured.
General Assembly endorsement, however, would only win the Palestinians a symbolic success.


Ashrawi said no date has been set for submitting the bid.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_926393.html


And in the meantime I still don't know what to make of the protests going on in Israel. I'm waiting to see if the protests successfully spread but am also still at a loss of just what kind of social justice these people are protesting for other than sort of an Israeli version of "The rent. Is too damn high."

[stumbler]

Since Israel has been bombing and conducting raids inside Gaza I didn't think it would be long before there were reprisal attacks on the part of the Palestinians. And I think that has happened but this story raises a lot more questions for me than it answers.

Deadly attacks across southern Israel
Israeli media and officials say at least five killed in three attacks on Israeli vehicles near Red Sea city of Eilat.

Assailants have carried out at least three attacks in southern Israel, killing at least five and injuring at least 10 people, reports and officials said.


An Israeli ambulance service spokesman confirmed to Al Jazeera that five people in a vehicle were killed by a missile hit about 30km north of the Red Sea resort of Eilat.


A police spokesperson said an anti-tank missile had been launched at a private car.


The attack occurred shortly after up to 10 passengers were wounded when three gunmen in a car opened fired at a bus travelling from Beer Sheva to Eilat, an Israeli police spokesperson confirmed to Al Jazeera.


Several minutes later, a number of bombs went off as an army patrol travelled along the border with Egypt, Israeli media including Army Radio and Channel 2 News reported.


The Israeli army said fighting between Israeli forces and gunmen was continuing.


The bus attack occurred as it was passing through the Netafim checkpoint located 12km north of Eilat, police said.


Hospital spokespersons said approximately 10 people - six "light" and four "medium" - were wounded in the attack.


An Israeli female soldier who was on the bus told Israeli Army Radio that the bus halted when the car swerved in front, screams were heard, and gunshots were fired for half a minute.


Reports said most of the passengers on the bus were Israeli soldiers who are residents of Eilat and were on their way home from their respective bases for the weekend.


The second attack was on an Israeli military vehicle which triggered a roadside bomb. Police said casualty numbers and the condition of the injured were unknown.


'Hunt down' perpetrators
Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, said the Israeli army was assessing the security situation in the area and vowed to "hunt down" the perpetrators of Thursday's attack, according to Army Radio.


Barak held Gazans responsible for Thursday's attacks, prompting military analysts to expect a harsh Israeli military reaction against the occupied Gaza Strip, reports said.


Yoav Mordechai, the Israeli army spokesman, said that Israeli forces were "in control of the situation and enforcing order".


Ahmad Yousef, a senior Hamas leader in Gaza, denied the group's responsibility for the Eilat attacks, though he said Hamas "praises the attack since it attacked [Israeli] soldiers and came in the right time while Israel is attacking Gaza almost every day".


"Since the whole political process is frozen, military escalation is the logical development," Yousef replied to Barak's threat against Gaza.


Eilat is "a tactical choice for attacks because the resistance groups look for suitable places and times for their attacks," he told Al Jazeera, on why southern Israel may have been the target.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...519247218.html


And here's the question that bothers me. I've read hundreds of stories about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and terrorist attacks just like this.


But this is the only story I've ever read about attacks that don't have the word Palestinian in it anywhere. Gaza? Yep. Hamas? Yes. But Palestinian? Nope.



I can't help but wonder why that is?

[stumbler]

Here's a few more details about the attacks in Israel and while the term Palestinian does appear in this story once again it actually raises more questions than it answers including just who is really can logically take revenge against; i.e. Can you take the chance of bombing Gaza in retaliation for attacks in Israel and then have it proven the residents of Gaza didn't have anything to do with it?

I don't think so. That would be a public relations nightmare just so coincidentally right before the Palestinians go before the UN and ask for recognition as an independent state.

And I don't think attacking Egypt would go over any better.

JERUSALEM -- Squads of gunmen armed with heavy weapons and explosives crossed into southern Israel from Egypt's Sinai Peninsula on Thursday, killing seven Israelis in an audacious series of attacks, officials said. The violence stoked concerns about Palestinian militants exploiting instability in Egypt.


The attacks began around midday and lasted for about three hours. Israeli security forces tracked down some of the assailants and killed several in a gunbattle, military spokesman Brig.-Gen. Yoav Mordechai said. Defense officials said three bodies were booby-trapped and Israeli TV channels said seven attackers were killed. There was no immediate word on whether any were captured alive or exactly how many in all were involved.


Israel almost immediately said the attackers came from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip and made their way through Sinai, which borders both Israel and Gaza. That raised the specter of an Israeli military reprisal against the Palestinian territory. Egypt and Hamas denied the allegations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_930168.html

[richief]

So peace still eludes this benighted country(s). When will they realise that they are both in the wrong and put aside religious differences and make a serious attempt at peace, when the bombs and bullets run out or when they are throwing rocks at each other.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

So peace still eludes this benighted country(s). When will they realise that they are both in the wrong and put aside religious differences and make a serious attempt at peace, when the bombs and bullets run out or when they are throwing rocks at each other.

I'm not sure because from what I read Israel went ahead and bombed Gaza anyway just in case they are responsible.

But I'm pretty sure the bullets and bombs won't stop until after the foreign aid does which is why I advocate for cutting off all aid and support to both Israel and the Palestinians.

I think that's the best way to stop everything else.

[richief]

Yes but the political lobbies in the US and EU are far too strong, and the Arab states and Russia will continue to arm the Palestinians, so I guess we are going to be in this state for a few years yet. The one thing the Palestinians could do but won't is to just sit down and protest peacefully, just sit and sing songs, then the world will see who the terrorists are, the Israelis could do the same. How can we expect the next generation to be peaceful when they are taught hatred from the cradle.

[osakisbl]

I'm going to climb way way out on the radical slender end of a very shaky limb.

I say "tell everyone to get the hell out of the area". and nuke the shit out of the disputed zone. This will end all of this stupid I want, you want, they want shit. The bomb need not be very powerful, but it will keep all of these restless types out of the area for a verrry long time.

Radical, dangerous, and wouldn't solve a damned thing, but wouldn't it drive the religious types NUTS. Beside it would be fun to watch. CNN TNN NBC hell every news agency in the whole fucking world would run the item for years. Even more than Jackson, Benet, Peterson,etc etc combined.

[richief]

Don't you think the US has a big enough target painted on it without giving the extremists more excuses.
The way forward is to cut off all aid both financial and military to both sides, when they are reduced to throwing rocks and eating oranges, dates and curried goat maybe, just maye they will realise the futility of their argument.

[stumbler]

Opps, we hear about some country recalling their ambassador from some other country all the time but Egypt recalling their ambassador from Israel. That's a little different and I fear could be a bad sign.

And the incident is no minor matter. It seems an Israeli helicopter "accidentally" killed some Egyptian border guards.

This is on top of repeated air strikes on Gaza but the real difference is ever since the 1970's Israel has not only been allowed to exist but actually prosper and have a pretty hand in the Middle East because the US and West had bought off Egypt to accept Israel in exchange for being the Second most powerful nation in the region.

Which Egypt agreed to and are armed second only to Israel thanks to the US and other western countries. That kind of kept everyone else off Israel and actually resulted in Egypt more or less protecting Israel.

But of course that was all because of one man. Murbarack and he ain't there no more. This could be a very dicey situation it looks to me.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...246810338.html

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

Yes but the political lobbies in the US and EU are far too strong, and the Arab states and Russia will continue to arm the Palestinians, so I guess we are going to be in this state for a few years yet. The one thing the Palestinians could do but won't is to just sit down and protest peacefully, just sit and sing songs, then the world will see who the terrorists are, the Israelis could do the same. How can we expect the next generation to be peaceful when they are taught hatred from the cradle.

I'm not sure about the EU but here in the US while the Israeli lobby is still a formidable force there is no longer the simply unapproachable power they used to have.

I mean in the past a Washington politician could not even criticize Israel without 1,000 lobbyists hitting the streets and a few hundred Congressman jumping on the band wagon the next day.

Now the Obama Administration and President Obama himself have publicly opposed Israel and about the best they can do is get a few reactionary Congressmen to mumble objections and nutcase losers like Glenn Beck to take up their causes.

That's not just a fall from grace. That's a plummet.

Originally Posted by osakisbl

I'm going to climb way way out on the radical slender end of a very shaky limb.

I say "tell everyone to get the hell out of the area". and nuke the shit out of the disputed zone. This will end all of this stupid I want, you want, they want shit. The bomb need not be very powerful, but it will keep all of these restless types out of the area for a verrry long time.

Radical, dangerous, and wouldn't solve a damned thing, but wouldn't it drive the religious types NUTS. Beside it would be fun to watch. CNN TNN NBC hell every news agency in the whole fucking world would run the item for years. Even more than Jackson, Benet, Peterson,etc etc combined.

It always surprises me when I encounter someone so short sighted, naive, and ignorant of the real world as you are.

Two words to show you that what you're really proposing is the end of the earth and human existence as we know it. China and Russia.

As in like only a fool would think those two nations would stand by and just watch the US launch a nuclear attack.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I'm not sure about the EU but here in the US while the Israeli lobby is still a formidable force there is no longer the simply unapproachable power they used to have.

I mean in the past a Washington politician could not even criticize Israel without 1,000 lobbyists hitting the streets and a few hundred Congressman jumping on the band wagon the next day.

Now the Obama Administration and President Obama himself have publicly opposed Israel and about the best they can do is get a few reactionary Congressmen to mumble objections and nutcase losers like Glenn Beck to take up their causes.

That's not just a fall from grace. That's a plummet.




It always surprises me when I encounter someone so short sighted, naive, and ignorant of the real world as you are.

Two words to show you that what you're really proposing is the end of the earth and human existence as we know it. China and Russia.

As in like only a fool would think those two nations would stand by and just watch the US launch a nuclear attack.

Yes I heard the criticism over here, but the aid still goes there and the weapons are still rolling off the plants and finishing in Israel.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

Yes I heard the criticism over here, but the aid still goes there and the weapons are still rolling off the plants and finishing in Israel.

Well and don't get me wrong, just in case I got a little carried away there. I've been saying for decades the solution is to quit funding Israel and the Palestinians. And as a side note we're talking Palestinians now, but since the 70's its been Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. Paying them off with military might just slightly less than what we gave to Israel. All knowing of course that it was a safe bet because Israel had nuclear arms and they were actually arming Egypt and Saudi Arabia to have power over their own Arab neighbors.

And as bad and potentially explosive as that kind of policy is I sure haven't heard President Obama (or anyone else in the government) say anything about changing that and has never so much as whispered or even hinted at cutting off funding and support.

No Israel and their friends and lobby are still too powerful for that but I do see President Obama pushing Israel in ways I've never seen before and getting away with it.

[anotheruser1]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I thought this one deserves its own thread because the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been a topic of so many discussions around here and this is the first opportunity we have to actually see if a peaceful settlement can be reached or as others claim the thousands of years of hatred and religious differences make peace impossible.

Here's where we're at right now.

Direct talks 'to resume' next month




http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...210436454.html

fuck em it aint none of our business. if they want to make hamburger out of each other, so be it. just keep the shit over there

[stumbler]

This is another one of those stories where I don't think we're getting the real truth although I suppose it could be as they say.

But anyway apparently rockets from Gaza missed Israel and hit Egypt today.

Now just how the hell did they manage to do that? It looks to me like Israel is west of Gaza and Egypt is east of Gaza.

And don't look for a lot of explanations or if you do I hope you have better luck than I did.

All I've been able to find is that according to Egypt it was some kind of Accident where they were shooting at Israeli border crossing and over shot hitting Egypt instead.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/2...s-with-israel/

[stumbler]

I think there's a new twist in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and its one I never thought of or heard of involving the Palestinian's efforts to seek statehood through the UN.

And up until now, to me at least, it was totally predictable with the US caught in the contradiction of trying to get Israel and the Palestinians to reach a peace agreement on one hand but on the other hand doing Israel's bidding for them if the Palestinians are successful in being recognized by the UN the US will use its veto power to nullify the ruling.

Which is of course why the US is strongly encouraging the Palestinians to delay going to the UN seeking recognition as an independent State and continue negotiating with them and Israel. But what jumps out at me is why should they? The Palestinians have an excellent chance of succeeding in at least a majority vote in the UN and the US veto exposes both Israel and the US as hypocrites and lends credence that's its Israel leading the US not the other way around.

But then this caught my eye today in one of the stories about the US efforts to get the Palestinians to stall on their proposal.

The administration has told Abbas it would veto any request made to the U.N. Security Council to make a Palestinian nation a new member, the Times said.


But it said Washington lacked support to block a vote by the Assembly to raise the status of the Palestinians to a nonvoter observer state from that of a nonvoting "entity," which could allow them to join many U.N. bodies, and pursue cases against Israel at the International Criminal Court.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/0...od-bid-report/


I know that's just so much diplomatic jargon but I see raise status to state instead of entity and International Criminal Court. That seems like a lot to me and I wonder if the Palestinians will be willing to take that deal.

[stumbler]

The Palestinians have reportedly begun their campaign for UN recognition as an independent state but I don't think that has the potential for any new acts of war that the deteriorating relationship between Israel and Turkey is.

They've already gone through of all the normal diplomatic spats of recalling their ambassadors. Then they went a step further and reportedly cancelled all mutual security agreements.

But now Turkey is saying they will sponsor a new "flotilla" to break the Gaza blockade and this time escort it with fighter planes. Now I can see that escalating very quickly to all out war. And not the kind of war Israel is used to because Turkey is powerful enough and armed enough to really strike back and hurt Israel.

I'm not sure Israel as we know it can continue to exist in this kind of international pressure cooker before the hardliners crack from both the external and internal pressure. And we can only hope they crack the right way.

Israel calls Turkey’s threat to send warships ‘grave and serious’


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/0...e-and-serious/

[origen01]

Originally Posted by stumbler

The Palestinians have reportedly begun their campaign for UN recognition as an independent state but I don't think that has the potential for any new acts of war that the deteriorating relationship between Israel and Turkey is.

They've already gone through of all the normal diplomatic spats of recalling their ambassadors. Then they went a step further and reportedly cancelled all mutual security agreements.

But now Turkey is saying they will sponsor a new "flotilla" to break the Gaza blockade and this time escort it with fighter planes. Now I can see that escalating very quickly to all out war. And not the kind of war Israel is used to because Turkey is powerful enough and armed enough to really strike back and hurt Israel.

I'm not sure Israel as we know it can continue to exist in this kind of international pressure cooker before the hardliners crack from both the external and internal pressure. And we can only hope they crack the right way.

Israel calls Turkey’s threat to send warships ‘grave and serious’


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/0...e-and-serious/

Another counter-example to the Democratic-Peace Hypothesis. Suck it, Dick Cheney!

[tenguy]

Originally Posted by origen01

Another counter-example to the Democratic-Peace Hypothesis. Suck it, Dick Cheney!

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...8dccdd1b34.401

US says will veto Palestinian state bid at UN
(AFP) – 1 day ago
WASHINGTON — The United States said Thursday it will veto a bid for UN recognition of a Palestinian state if it comes to a vote before the UN Security Council.
State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said US opposition to such a move by the Palestinians "should not come as a shock."
"So yes, if something comes to a vote in the UN security council, the US will veto," she said.
In Ramallah, the Palestinian leadership confirmed on Thursday that it intends to make a formal request that the United Nations accept the state of Palestine as a member.
Nuland said it was still uncertain whether the Palestinian request would come to a vote and said the United States believes "the best route forward is to come back to the negotiating table."
US State Department officials are to meet on Friday with a Palestinian delegation, the department said separately.
Copyright © 2011 AFP. All rights reserved

[origen01]

Originally Posted by tenguy

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...8dccdd1b34.401

Well, I was mostly referencing the level of antagonism between the two democracies of Turkey and Israel. It flies in the face of neoconservative doctrine which says that democracies are much less likely to engage in conflict amongst themselves. I guess not in the Middle East...

I'm a liberal so I want us to spread democracy but we should temper our views with a dose of Realism.

[grig314]

Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have been useless and will continue to be useless because Israel is just using them to stall for time while Israeli settlers grab up more and more of the West Bank. Turkey is just warmup for what Israel is in for. If the US goes into a depression and has to stop giving Israel billions of bucks, Israel will begin to feel world opinion, which is more and more going against Israel.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by origen01

Well, I was mostly referencing the level of antagonism between the two democracies of Turkey and Israel. It flies in the face of neoconservative doctrine which says that democracies are much less likely to engage in conflict amongst themselves. I guess not in the Middle East...

I'm a liberal so I want us to spread democracy but we should temper our views with a dose of Realism.

Actually I'm looking at the same thing you are and think Turkey could be a wildcard unlike anything else Israel has had to face.

For one thing Turkey is every bit as powerful as Israel when it comes to conventional forces. Turkey can strike back and strike back hard.

Second, Turkey is no one's lap dog and while they would like to be in the European Union that's about the only hold the international community has over them. And I don't think Turkey is afraid to go it alone.

I'm not sure Israel can bluff Turkey at a time when they've got trouble in Egypt and feeling the pressure from the US and other nations that want to see peace between them and the Palestinians.

It should be pretty interesting to see how Israel handles this.

Originally Posted by grig314

Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have been useless and will continue to be useless because Israel is just using them to stall for time while Israeli settlers grab up more and more of the West Bank. Turkey is just warmup for what Israel is in for. If the US goes into a depression and has to stop giving Israel billions of bucks, Israel will begin to feel world opinion, which is more and more going against Israel.

I think Israel has just about run out of time. I think the Palestinians are going to ask for and receive independent recognition from the UN and while Israel is counting on a US veto of that recognition I'm not sure they can.

Also the Obama Administration could very well begin cutting aid and support to Israel which is something I've advocated for for decades.

[stumbler]

I could be wrong but I've got a bad feeling things between Israel and Palestine are going to be heating up before and especially after next Tuesday when the Palestinians ask the UN for recognition as an Independent State.

That seems like push coming to shove to me and I expect sparks to fly. Especially if the Palestinian's bid for independence is granted by the UN but Vetoed by the US.

Personally if I was President Obama I wouldn't veto it but I'm sure we will.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...463224416.html

[stumbler]

Palestinians And Israel At War In New York Subways

No link for that one yet because I just heard it on TV and in case you haven't guessed its a war of words not bullets.

But still the staunch supporters of Israel were let's say a little surprised at the least to step off the subway and being confronted with pretty slick advertising billboards calling for the US to cut off military aid and support to Israel.

Man, are they ever pissed off about that.

Of course its all just part of the Palestinian's UN bid to be recognized as an independent state. Mahmoud Abbas is speaking in Ramallah today trying to promote the idea and will turn in the application for independence Monday.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...105349125.html

[clarise]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I could be wrong but I've got a bad feeling things between Israel and Palestine are going to be heating up before and especially after next Tuesday when the Palestinians ask the UN for recognition as an Independent State.

That seems like push coming to shove to me and I expect sparks to fly. Especially if the Palestinian's bid for independence is granted by the UN but Vetoed by the US.

Personally if I was President Obama I wouldn't veto it but I'm sure we will.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...463224416.html

Interesting. Don't you think that if you were President Obama, you would have better information at your disposal? One would hope.

I understand your sentiment, though. Independence for Palestine. Simple enough.

I think Obama has no choice in the matter. I am thinking that if he does not veto it, Israel will respond by invading the Palestinian territories, dismantling its provisional government and imposing marshal law.

Some would say Israel has already done all of that. I disagree. They have not done it overtly. I am saying that, if pushed, they will erase the boundary line and annex the territory.

[CS natureboy]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Palestinians And Israel At War In New York Subways

No link for that one yet because I just heard it on TV and in case you haven't guessed its a war of words not bullets.

But still the staunch supporters of Israel were let's say a little surprised at the least to step off the subway and being confronted with pretty slick advertising billboards calling for the US to cut off military aid and support to Israel.

Man, are they ever pissed off about that.

Of course its all just part of the Palestinian's UN bid to be recognized as an independent state. Mahmoud Abbas is speaking in Ramallah today trying to promote the idea and will turn in the application for independence Monday.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...105349125.html

So which part of "Palestine" is the UN going to recognize? The Gaza Strip, control by Hamas, or the West Bank with the Abbas crowd?

And while you are at it, tell us what your buddy Barry is going to do?

[clarise]

Everyone on both sides of the aisle seem to be saying we should cut off all aid to Israel and the Palestinians.

We would take a hit, definitely, by letting Israel sink. We have a lot of skin in that game. Silicon lithography, for just one instance. Most contemporary chipsets are designed there. Most of the phone chipsets in use today. Most of the tablet chipsets, including the iPad. All made in Israel.

Man. I don't know.

In principle, I guess I would agree with everyone who is saying, "let'em butcher each other" (said by those on the right), and "let'em work out a peaceful solution without third party interference" (said by those on the left).

But I just don't know. Too heavily invested, I think, to not be involved. Too much to leave to chance.

In some ways our dependency on Israel's high tech engineering capacity is even more dangerous than our dependency on Gulf oil.

I just don't know.

[stumbler]

Now this could be an entirely different approach to dealing with Israel and the pro Israeli lobby in the US.

U.S. tax-evasion probe leads to Israeli banks

(Reuters) - The U.S. pursuit of offshore tax evaders is widening to include Israel, where U.S. authorities are scrutinizing three of Israel's largest banks over suspicions their Swiss outposts helped American clients evade taxes, people briefed on the matter said.


The banks under scrutiny by the U.S. Justice Department's criminal tax division are Bank Hapoalim, Bank Leumi le-Israel BM and Mizrahi-Tefahot, the sources said.


The shift to Israel from Switzerland, for years the main focus of the Justice Department's campaign against offshore private banking secrecy, signals the broadening of a landmark probe by the agency that began in 2007 with UBS AG, Switzerland's largest bank.


The shift also opens up a potential sore spot in the historically close relationship between the United States and Israel, a key diplomatic and military ally in the Middle East that is the biggest recipient of U.S. aid -- $3.1 billion last year.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/1...israeli-banks/


Gee we seemed to jump from Israeli banks to the amount of aid Israel gets kind of sudden like didn't we?


Probably just careless writing/editing.

[richief]

What peace talks, they're over. Now the EU and the US are trying to persuade the PA not to apply for recognition of their state. I am guessing they will say piss off, they will apply the US will veto in the Security Council and they will not get recognition.

Pull the fuck out of the area, let them sort out their Arabic and Asian issues themselves, when they are throwing Jaffa oranges and dates they will realise it is time for peace.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

What peace talks, they're over. Now the EU and the US are trying to persuade the PA not to apply for recognition of their state. I am guessing they will say piss off, they will apply the US will veto in the Security Council and they will not get recognition.

Pull the fuck out of the area, let them sort out their Arabic and Asian issues themselves, when they are throwing Jaffa oranges and dates they will realise it is time for peace.

And surprise, surprise, now that the Palestinians are seeking independent statehood at the UN Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said yesterday they should go back to the peace negotiations. And of course to day the Palestinians are saying not without some pre-conditions.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...347528476.html

One thing is clear though both Israel and the US are pretty nervous about the Palestinians bid for statehood in the UN. For reasons that aren't really all that clear to me that appears to be something they honestly fear.

[stumbler]

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is speaking to the UN now listing their reasons for wanting to be recognized by the UN as an independent state. Naturally the US media ran a little of it and then cut away but I'll look for a transcript later.

Also here's a scathing editorial in Al Jazeera calling president Obama "the first Jewish President."

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...365733499.html

[stumbler]

Ok I admit I don't know quite what to make of this other than the ever strange relationship between Israel and the Palestinians.

They can't agree on peace. They oppose each other in the UN. So we'll have a prisoner exchange instead and the kidnapped Israeli soldier finally gets to go home.

Scenes of celebration in the Gaza Strip and in Jerusalem have greeted the announcement of a landmark Palestinian-Israeli prisoner-swap deal.


More than 1,000 Palestinians are to be freed in exchange for one Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, who has been held for more than five years, under the deal announced on Tuesday.

Shalit was captured by Hamas, the Palestinian faction which governs Gaza, in a cross-border raid in 2006. The Israelis have said he will be released within days.


The Israeli cabinet approved the deal after a late-night meeting, with 26 ministers voting in favour and three opposing it.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...736403417.html

[origen01]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Ok I admit I don't know quite what to make of this other than the ever strange relationship between Israel and the Palestinians.

They can't agree on peace. They oppose each other in the UN. So we'll have a prisoner exchange instead and the kidnapped Israeli soldier finally gets to go home.




http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...736403417.html

Welcome back, stumbler.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by origen01

Welcome back, stumbler.

Thank you.

Did you see this?

UNESCO approves Palestinian membership bid UN cultural body admits Palestine as full member despite US threat to cut off tens of millions of dollars in funding.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...551498181.html

[ace's n 8's]

U.S. Will Withhold Funds For U.N. Agency After Vote to Grant Membership to Palestinians

The United States will not pay $60 million to a U.N. cultural and educational agency after it voted Monday to accept the Palestinian mission as a full member, triggering a U.S. requirement to cut off funds.
"We are not going to be able to continue contributing to the budget," State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said. "Palestinian membership as a state in UNESCO triggers longstanding legislative restrictions which will compel the United States to refrain from making contributions to UNESCO."

Washington is required by law to cut off funding to any U.N. agency if the Palestinian Liberation Organization is granted membership in any group at the international body.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1cNxaNDrR

[grig314]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

U.S. Will Withhold Funds For U.N. Agency After Vote to Grant Membership to Palestinians

Contribute a few billion a year to Israel to continue killing Palestinians, taking their land, and totally controlling their lives. Clearly, Palestinians are not people while the killer thief Israelis are, so screw the Palestinians, although they have shown more character in a day than Israel can muster in a year.

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by grig314

Contribute a few billion a year to Israel to continue killing Palestinians, taking their land, and totally controlling their lives. Clearly, Palestinians are not people while the killer thief Israelis are, so screw the Palestinians, although they have shown more character in a day than Israel can muster in a year.

Take your extra cash, and give it to the U.N,,I absolutely agree with the decision that it is against U.S. law to support the UNESCO now.

[richief]

Sounds like the Jewish lobby throwing its weight around.