Is political reform sweeping through the middle east

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

Don't worry about the spelling of his name, I have it on good authority that he has the same problem with yours.

If Libya can topple their dictator then for once, in history we can have a really free North Africa, free from dictators and colonisers, people free to use their will to make a difference in their own lives.

I totally agree. And from what I'm hearing it sounds like the demonstrations are continuing.

And this might be an isolated incident but I have to wonder if the pro-democracy protests are spreading to Iraq. That would be ironic wouldn't it.

But here's a report of a demonstration in eastern Iraq where security forces opened fire on protesters. Its supposed to be a local protest but the protesters sure sound like all the others I've been hearing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/me...unrest/?hpt=T2

[stumbler]

Reports this morning say Bahrain security forces and police hit the protesters last night in sort of a surprise attack that caught most of them sleeping.

The Bahrain capital of Manama was rocked by sporadic clashes, hours after riot police attacked a makeshift encampment of pro-reform protesters in the centre of the city, killing at least six and injuring dozens of others.

An Al Jazeera correspondent, who cannot be named for security reasons, said on Thursday that "clashes were no longer limited to one place...they are now spread out in different parts of the city". He said that the hospitals are full of injured people after last night's police raid on the pro-reform demonstrators.


"Some of them are severely injured with gunshots. Patients include doctors and emergency personnel who were overrun by the police while trying to attend to the wounded."


Another Al Jazeera online producer said that booms could be heard from different parts of the city, suggesting that "tear-gas is being used to disperse the protesters in several neighbourhoods".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...223324820.html


And there is also an added element of intrigue involved with the demonstrations and what happens in Bahrain. That's because Bahrain is also the headquarters for the US 5th Fleet which of course patrols the Persian Gulf. That is a critical strategic position from what I'm hearing and the US may have a bigger military stake in Bahrain than they did in Egypt.


It should be really interesting where President Obama comes down on this damned if you do and damned if you don't position.

[ThisFNG]

Since I refuse to click on fucking AJ news. . .

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_bahrain_protests

This got a little personal this morning when I read it. The guy who ran those tanks was probably my buddy from OBC. He was an exchange student and the King's nephew.

The guy was hard as woodpecker lips. He had a scar from the back of his head, over his ear and stopped just above his left eye in his hair line. A protester had cracked him over the head with a crowbar, a few years earlier. I also watched him drinking, puke in his mouth, swallow it, pick up the empty pitcher, puke in it, refill his beer from the newly arrived pitcher of beer, and keep drinking. And that was mid 2000.

Khalid was 22-23 at the time and training at Knox to lead their tank battalion. They only have something like 50 tanks, but its a small place.

This shit has been going on for a LONG time. Khalid had been fighting rioters and hunting bomb makers since he was 18, leading an Infantry platoon.

[RandyKnight]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Reports this morning say Bahrain security forces and police hit the protesters last night in sort of a surprise attack that caught most of them sleeping.




http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...223324820.html


And there is also an added element of intrigue involved with the demonstrations and what happens in Bahrain. That's because Bahrain is also the headquarters for the US 5th Fleet which of course patrols the Persian Gulf. That is a critical strategic position from what I'm hearing and the US may have a bigger military stake in Bahrain than they did in Egypt.


It should be really interesting where President Obama comes down on this damned if you do and damned if you don't position.

That was the country giving away the money....

Bahrain's king gifts $3,000 to every family
(AFP) – 5 days ago
MANAMA — Bahrain's king has ordered that each family in the tiny Gulf monarchy be given $3,000 to mark the 10th anniversary of a national charter for reforms, state news agency BNA said on Friday.
"On the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the National Action Charter and as a sign of appreciation for the people of Bahrain who have approved it, King Hamad bin Issa al-Khalifa has ordered 1,000 dinars (3,000 dollars) to be paid to every Bahraini family," BNA reported.
The decision came as cyber activists called for protests in Bahrain starting from Monday to demand political, social and economic reforms.
In a February 2001 referendum, Bahrainis approved a national charter for reform which restored a parliament dissolved in 1975, and in February 2002, Bahrain became a kingdom ruled by a constitutional monarchy.
Bahrain's government has announced measures to support food prices and help families in need, as revolts in Egypt and Tunisia, sparked by poverty and unemployment, led to the ouster of both regimes.
Bahrain, with a population of around 568,000 people, is considered the poorest among its oil-rich Gulf neighbours and its crude reserves have virtually dried up.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by RandyKnight

That was the country giving away the money....

Bahrain's king gifts $3,000 to every family
(AFP) – 5 days ago
MANAMA — Bahrain's king has ordered that each family in the tiny Gulf monarchy be given $3,000 to mark the 10th anniversary of a national charter for reforms, state news agency BNA said on Friday.
"On the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the National Action Charter and as a sign of appreciation for the people of Bahrain who have approved it, King Hamad bin Issa al-Khalifa has ordered 1,000 dinars (3,000 dollars) to be paid to every Bahraini family," BNA reported.
The decision came as cyber activists called for protests in Bahrain starting from Monday to demand political, social and economic reforms.
In a February 2001 referendum, Bahrainis approved a national charter for reform which restored a parliament dissolved in 1975, and in February 2002, Bahrain became a kingdom ruled by a constitutional monarchy.
Bahrain's government has announced measures to support food prices and help families in need, as revolts in Egypt and Tunisia, sparked by poverty and unemployment, led to the ouster of both regimes.
Bahrain, with a population of around 568,000 people, is considered the poorest among its oil-rich Gulf neighbours and its crude reserves have virtually dried up.

You're right. The big value for Bahrain is our Navy Headquarters. Safe Harbors are hard to find for us in that part of the world.

But for the OIL connection watch Libya. They've been sanctioned and underdeveloped for the past 20 or 30 years and are still sitting on most their oil reserves.

That's a big brass ring right there if the world oil Monopoly can get their hands on it. The problem is I think they get along fine with Gaddafi and like the deals they've already cut with him.

I fear for the demonstrators over that one.

[stumbler]

............. all the way to Wisconsin.

Thousands of demonstrators are in the street and the entire Democrat Senate Delegation has left the capitol so they don't have a quorum, and can't pass what is being described as a Union busting bill.

We'll just have to see if President Obama urges restraint on the part of the government.

[Ed Itor]

Just remember that they turn on you if they do not get their way.
UAE is upset with us because we did not allow them to land more planes here, dumb conservative gits backing Air Canada (a privately owned co.), so they kicked out our military & closed the base and demand Canucks pay them $2,000.00 for a visitor visa. Like we need to go there for vacations when Cuba is closer & cheaper eh.

[stumbler]

Here's an updated blog on Bahrain. According to it the response on the part of the government has been violent and is getting worse.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...e-blog-bahrain

And here's an interesting entry in the live blog covering Libya.

10:46pm Al Jazeera's Evan Hill reports that the Libyan government has allegedly threatened to withdraw scholarship funding from some of its citizens studying in the US unless they attend pro-government rallies in Washington this weekend.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...ive-blog-libya

WTF?? Gaddafi is planning pro government demonstrations in DC? Now that should be something.

Especially since some reports are more than a dozen people have already been killed in demonstrations in Libya.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...917273192.html

And if that's not enough I'm not sure what this Palestinian protest has to do with anything, but that didn't keep thousands of them from demonstrating.

Thousands of Palestinians have rallied in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank calling for unity between the Hamas and Fatah factions.

One of the protesters in Thursday's demonstration told Reuters Television that the time had come for Palestinians to be one, undivided people.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...841393818.html

And being UPDATED NOW ON CNN.

Government and former government officials are being arrested in Egypt.

And of course Oil prices are jumping because Iranian War Ships are going to try and pass through the Suez Canal. Egypt doesn't have a problem with that but Israel of course does.

[PatronofPorn]

More on Libya from BBC.
Note the middle section.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12512536

Basically, the army looks like it's *possibly* starting to fracture on local vs national fault lines. From that article, it seems if a Libyan from Tripoli is stationed in Benghazi, he'll follow orders, but if a Benghazi man is ordered to fire on fellow Benghazis to suppress them, it looks like he'd prefer to turn the muzzle on his commanding officer than on his neighbors.

[scotsmitch2001]

Great isn't it? in all the countries were the West have propped up the regimes, the walls come tumbling down...and when the people vote for a religious group, of whatever persuasion, to lead them..You,ll all be screaming.
These countries don't know what democracy is.
They do not understand what it is.
Like sheep, they need someone to tell them what to think.
And when they are again cowed and ready for slaughter.
Who will the West support?

[grig314]

No democracy until we see an actual President and some sort of parliament or congress, and the rules give the people power to toss them out and put someone else in if they don't like what's in power. I'm not seeing it yet.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by PatronofPorn

More on Libya from BBC.
Note the middle section.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12512536

Basically, the army looks like it's *possibly* starting to fracture on local vs national fault lines. From that article, it seems if a Libyan from Tripoli is stationed in Benghazi, he'll follow orders, but if a Benghazi man is ordered to fire on fellow Benghazis to suppress them, it looks like he'd prefer to turn the muzzle on his commanding officer than on his neighbors.

Thanks for the update. And it looks like its getting really deadly in Libya but I don't see any signs of the protesters backing down.

February 19
1:10pm A source inside Benghazi tells Al Jazeera that the situation remains tense there today:

People woke up this morning with dozens of bodies and burnet vehicles in the streets. Snipers are still active in central Benghazi whilst other parts are completely liberated.

A funeral will go out from Al Jalaa Hospital and (perhaps) ... over 120 bodies are there. No details from other towns as mobile networks are very limited.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...ive-blog-libya

[stumbler]

I can't seem to confirm this anywhere else but CNN/HLN is reporting that protesters in Libya have been fired on from Helicopters. Some reports claim more than 180 people have been killed.

Also the situation is being deliberately confused by the government with huge pro-Gaddafi and pro-government demonstrations being staged in Tripoli while the situation is more war like especially in the eastern portion of the country. People in Tripoli are being convinced the protesters are infiltrators not real Libyans.

Here's a live blog that explains the situation.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...ive-blog-libya

And here's another story on the protests.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...386812127.html

In other developments it appears the pro-democracy demonstrations have spread to Morocco. At least this is the first report I've seen of protests there.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...428971616.html

And despite massive calls to execute all the opposition leaders of last year's protests in Iran those calling for government reform are still planning protests.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...512326286.html

Also one of those opposition leaders being threatened with execution is calling on the government of Iran to arrest and try him.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...957526278.html

[AZRIEL]

Crouching David.jpg

[stumbler]

Anti-government protesters in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi have reportedly seized army vehicles and weapons amid worsening turmoil in the African nation.


A local witness said that a section of the troops had joined the protesters as chaos swept the streets of the city, worst hit by the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year old rule.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...259976293.html

I have to admire protesters who can take weapons and vehicles away from the police. Sounds like some mighty tough and dedicated boys to me.

[stumbler]

7:56pm: Al Jazeera Arabic is speaking to a political activist in Tripoli, who tells us there are airstrikes "all over Tripoli".

There is death, fear - and women are crying everywhere. The strikes are concentrated against areas that sent large number of protestors to the streets and there are cars full of foreign fighters firing on people.

He says at least 250 people were killed in the past 24 hours alone and is calling for international help. He tells us Tripoli is "under siege by foreign fighters" - that water and electricity have been cut and there is a shortage of food and medical supplies. "It is a genocide," he says.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...ive-blog-libya


There are also reports of Libyan pilots defecting to other countries rather than fire on civilians. This does tend to confirm, however, that Gaddafi has called in air strikes on the protesters.

[stumbler]

There are now conflicting reports about whether Gaddafi has left Libya or not. Some reports are that he has fled the country while official government reports deny that and claim Gaddafi is in Tripoli.

I've got my doubts that he's still there if he's got defectors in fighter jets flying around loose.

[thinskin]

With Western leaders urging the governments of North Africa to listen to the legitimate demands of the protesters do you think that now is a good time for a bit of protest closer to home?

Our leaders will have to acknowledge the protesters otherwise leave themselves open to charges of hypocrisy.

Just a thought.

Thinskin

[richief]

Gaddafi is fucked, warplanes defecting, UN officials defecting the protest is growing, and the colonel running or getting his bags packed.

His son blaming drug addicts and the BBC.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by richief

Gaddafi is fucked, warplanes defecting, UN officials defecting the protest is growing, and the colonel running or getting his bags packed.

His son blaming drug addicts and the BBC.

I think you're right but its going to get worse before it gets better. I've heard reports Gaddafi is bringing in more mercenaries and I saw pictures of burned bodies that were allegedly army officers that refused to fire on civilians.

And did you see Gaddafi's son? I think he's crazier than his old man.

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by stumbler

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...259976293.html

I have to admire protesters who can take weapons and vehicles away from the police. Sounds like some mighty tough and dedicated boys to me.

This protest will be extremely violent. Who will blink first?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

This protest will be extremely violent. Who will blink first?

I don't think this one will end with a blink, Ace. A bullet is much more likely in this instance I'm afraid and Gaddafi can fire all he wants at civilians but it only takes one to end HIS government.

And Ace I love protests. I've participated in one or two myself. But the thing is I've never seen protests like this. Not when the WILL of the people is so absolutely overwhelming. I can only go by the pictures but it looked to me like if Egypt wanted to stop the protests they'd have had to kill just about everyone in the country.

The ones in Libya aren't even allowed in the first place and they have sure as fuck called in air strikes on them. And hired mercenaries Ace. That crazy fuck knows he can't get his army to fire on their own people. No problem. Hire them that will.

But I heard a US professor and expert on the Middle East today on CNN and he said a lot of what's being said and shouted by the protesters amounts to go a head and kill us we have nothing to lose.

Damn Ace, I'd be scared of that attitude if I was a leader in Libya.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I think you're right but its going to get worse before it gets better. I've heard reports Gaddafi is bringing in more mercenaries and I saw pictures of burned bodies that were allegedly army officers that refused to fire on civilians.

And did you see Gaddafi's son? I think he's crazier than his old man.

Yep, that place is going to explode, when he is gone there will be a complete power vacuum. I would like to say this is the one time I think the US should lead a massive UN intervention force, or maybe a EU led one, but it won't be fast enough to save many lives. If Gaddafi doesn't escape with the family silver I can see him suffering the fate of Nicolae Ceauşescu, a brief trial and a summary execution. But getting to that point will be through a river of blood.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I heard a US professor and expert on the Middle East today on CNN and he said a lot of what's being said and shouted by the protesters amounts to go a head and kill us we have nothing to lose.

Damn Ace, I'd be scared of that attitude if I was a leader in Libya.

I would be afraid if I was the dictator of North Korea. No dictator can govern exclusively through fear. A dictator can only rule as long as there are people who like him enough to enforce his orders.

Kim Jong-il has to be the most evil dictator in the world. He and his cronies live like millionaires in a country where starvation is a leading cause of death.

[stumbler]

CNN just reported that Gaddafi is expected to announce sweeping political reforms today.

I wonder how that is going to go.

Looking back on Mubarak that was his last mistake.

And I'm so sure that political reforms will just make all the air strikes and massacres OK with the Libyan people.

In the meantime I wonder what the real body count is in Libya. They seem to be doing a good job of censoring any real news getting out.

[stumbler]

Gaddafi is speaking now on CNN. And either they've got the worst interpreter in the world or Gaddafi is not even making sense.

[stumbler]

Gaddafi is standing there flat footed saying the US is the ones sending the planes that are shooting civilians and that what Libyans have seen in the streets are nothing more than youths who have been given "hallucination pills."

I shit you not.

He also did something I don't think I'd do. Gaddafi said its not possible for him to leave the country because his relatives are buried there and then pointed to the direction of their graves.

I'm not sure I'd be giving those kinds of instructions if I was him.

[stumbler]

"I'll die a martyr."

CAIRO — Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi vows to fight on and die a "martyr," calling on his supporters to take back the streets from protesters demanding his ouster, shouting and pounding his fist in a furious speech Tuesday on state TV.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_826532.html

Maybe sooner than he thinks. Why did he call on his supporters to take back the streets instead of sending the military in? That's gotta be one lonely dictator if all he's got is his "supporters."

[stumbler]

SULAIMANIYAH, Iraq — Around 4,000 demonstrators crowded Tahrir Square in the centre of the Iraqi city of Sulaimaniyah on Tuesday, the latest protest against the dominance of two major parties in the region.


Iraqi officials have attempted to head off nationwide rallies in recent days by cutting the pay of ministers and lawmakers, hiking funds dedicated to food for the needy, and delaying the implementation of new import tariffs that would raise prices on goods.


Protests in Sulaimaniyah, the second-biggest city in Iraq's autonomous Kurdish region, have left three young protesters dead and more than 100 wounded since Thursday as demonstrators have railed against corruption and the lording over the region by two main parties.


Demonstrators in the city on Tuesday carried banners reading, "Don't Forget Hosni Mubarak," referring to the downfall of the Egyptian president who was overthrown in large part by massive protests on Cairo's Tahrir Square.


"We will continue our demonstrations until officials implement real change," said Kardo Karim, 35.


In a bid to prevent any further violence from taking place, several of the demonstrators wore white shirts inscribed with the words, "Wall of Peace", and stood between the bulk of the protesters and security forces.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/2...nti-govt-demo/

[tenguy]

Originally Posted by stumbler

"I'll die a martyr."



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_826532.html

Maybe sooner than he thinks. Why did he call on his supporters to take back the streets instead of sending the military in? That's gotta be one lonely dictator if all he's got is his "supporters."

Qaddafi is beginning to look like Saddam.

[stumbler]

The UN Security council has passed one of their usual condemnations of Gaddafi's use of military force to suppress the civilian protests, but this one had a twist.

In this case the Libyan deputy ambassador joined the Security Council in condemning the Libyan regime's response to the protests. You don't see that every day. In fact I don't think you see it any day in Libya.

Also one of Gaddafi's former interior ministers has resigned and says Gaddafi either needs to kill himself or be killed.

On the other hand there are many more unconfirmed reports of air strikes, foreign mercenaries, and entire regions of the country now under protester control.

This is one of the most wild west Middle East Rodeos I've ever seen or heard tell of.

PS I've been meaning to put this up all day but oil companies and entire countries are setting up for mass evacuations of their employees from Libya. And while the Egyptians haven't set up a government yet they have responded rather impressively to the crisis in Libya and have already set up Medical and refugee facilities right across the border.

[stumbler]

This is not a good sign to me. I actually have more faith in our government and intelligence agencies than some I admit. And if I'm right this does not forebode well for Libyan civilians.

4:51am The first major evacuation vessel sponsored by the US Government is set to evacuate American citizens from Libya. Following is a Warden message by the American embassy in Tripoli:



A US Government chartered ferry will depart Tripoli from the As-shahab Port in central Tripoli, located on the sea road across from the Radisson Blu Mahari Hotel, for Valletta, Malta on Wednesday, February 23. Processing of passengers will begin promptly at 10:00am local time. US citizen travelers wishing to depart should proceed as soon as possible after 9:00am to the pier and arrive no later than 10:00am US citizens will be processed on a first-come, first-served basis, with priority given to persons with medical emergencies or severe medical conditions.


The ferry will depart no later than 3:00pm. Travelers should bring valid travel documents and any necessary medications.


Each traveler may bring one suitcase and a small personal carry-on item.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/africa/20...g-libya-feb-23


I just think that may mean a loss of hope for any peaceful or even quick resolution.


In the meantime those screaming for President Obama to be more forceful with Libya might consider we still have people to get out of there.

[RandyKnight]

Looking at all that is going on over there...title to this thread has become very appropriate.

[richief]

The worry for me is who will take over, another military junta, there is no organised political party of any sort outside of the Gaddaffi "gang". So if we get another General in charge will there be any real change.

What should worry the US government is the potential for the fall of the "Oil Royals", where will the US stand if the commoners in Saudi rise up, where will the Saudi military stand, we all know it is a Monarchy/Theocracy, what happens if they depose the royals who there will take over, the theologians, 'cos there stands a recipe for disaster for US policies in the area. Saudi the most god awful country I ever visited followed closely by Kuwait and Iraq, One unstable and two ripe for uprisings.

[Ed Itor]

Originally Posted by richief

The worry for me is who will take over, another military junta, there is no organised political party of any sort outside of the Gaddaffi "gang". So if we get another General in charge will there be any real change.

What should worry the US government is the potential for the fall of the "Oil Royals", where will the US stand if the commoners in Saudi rise up, where will the Saudi military stand, we all know it is a Monarchy/Theocracy, what happens if they depose the royals who there will take over, the theologians, 'cos there stands a recipe for disaster for US policies in the area. Saudi the most god awful country I ever visited followed closely by Kuwait and Iraq, One unstable and two ripe for uprisings.

Hey most of The USA's oil comes from Canada.

Turning to the stability of the nations from which the U.S. imports oil, a good share of imported oil does come from nations that have fairly stable political situations. However, as will be discussed shortly, the largest amount of oil reserves are located in the Middle East -- one of the most volatile regions of the world. Most people are surprised to learn that the country from which the United States imports the greatest amount of oil is Canada. In recent years, the United States has imported approximately 200 million barrels of crude oil annually from Canada.

Read more here: http://www.quoteoil.com/oil-imports.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html

[richief]

Maybe so but the launch platform to attack Iran isn't anywhere in the cold north.

[tenguy]

Originally Posted by Ed Itor

Hey most of The USA's oil comes from Canada.
Read more here: http://www.quoteoil.com/oil-imports.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html

The US imports over 10 million barrels of oil a day, less than 1/4 comes from Canada.

The US does import more oil from Canada than any other source but it gets some from a few other countries as well.


Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries) MBBL/day avg
YTD 2009
CANADA 2,458
MEXICO 1,211
SAUDI ARABIA 1,016
VENEZUELA 1,082
NIGERIA 789
ALGERIA 488
RUSSIA 580
COLOMBIA 281
IRAQ 462
ANGOLA 477
VIRGIN ISLANDS 276
BRAZIL 320
ECUADOR 194
UNITED KINGDOM 249
KUWAIT 184

[prtndr]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...herese-shaheen

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by prtndr

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...herese-shaheen

By Therese Shaheen

February 23, 2011 2:55 P.M.

The problem for authoritarian regimes is that it is difficult to know when the people have had enough and will no longer tolerate the argument that they are not ready for self-rule...

The lesson of Egypt, and possibly Bahrain and Yemen, is that remaining closely aligned with a regime whose fortunes turn literally overnight puts the U.S. in a compromising position and leaves us trusted by no one. The U.S. should always be on the side of people who seek to rule themselves, not on the side of rulers who seek to deny them that right.

-----

These are valid arguments against President Eisenhower's decision in 1953 to direct the CIA to overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran and install the Shah as dictator, and against his decision a year later not to sign and not to honor the Geneva Agreement of 1954 which called for elections to be held in July 1956 to unify Vietnam.

These decisions did not harm Eisenhower politically, but they lead to the War in Vietnam, and the Iranian Revolution of 1979.

[stumbler]

Here's a couple updates:

3:24pm

There are multiple reports of gun battles are taking place between securituy forces and protesters in the town of al Zawiyah, 50 km west of Tripoli, on Thursday. Retuers reports that gun fire has broken out there, while sources tell Al Jazeera that the amry attacked the town this morning, firing shots at protesters for roughly four hours.
The death tolls vary greatly - from 16 to 100, and Reuters is unable to confirm any numbers. The agency reports that the army attacked the Souq Mosque where protesters had been camped out for several days:

The soldiers opened fire with automatic weapons and hit the mosque's minaret with fire from an anti-aircraft gun, he said. Some of the young men among the protesters, who were inside the mosque and in a nearby lot, had hunting rifles for protection.

The witness said that earlier in the day, a Gaddafi "envoy" had come to al Zawiyah and told the protesters in the mosque to leave or "you will see a massacre". He also said, "Those who attacked us are not the mercenaries, they are the sons of our country".

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/africa/20...g-libya-feb-24


Also CNN is reporting that while some major areas of Libya remain in control of the protesters, reports from Tripoli say Security Forces are going from house to house arresting suspected protesters.


And an Libyan government official has come forward to directly accuse Gadddafi of sponsoring the Lockerbee bombing and other terrorist acts.


That could become a handy excuse I think for taking some kind of international or US action.


Because I'm pretty sure we don't have any idea how bad its really getting in Libya or how bad it could get.

[CFH420]

The middle east does not know what peace is, or how to handle it. They will never stop fighting, EVER. Mark my words.

We need to stay out of this bullshit ass mess...your trying to give people democracy which conflicts with their religion...it does not, and will not EVER WORK.

[Distant Lover]

http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/watc...eature=related

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by CFH420

The middle east does not know what peace is, or how to handle it. They will never stop fighting, EVER. Mark my words.

We need to stay out of this bullshit ass mess...your trying to give people democracy which conflicts with their religion...it does not, and will not EVER WORK.

Well here's more proof positive you're completely delusional because no one could be that misinformed.

No one is trying to give people in the Middle East democracy. They are standing up against absolutely lethal odds to demand it all on their own.

No one orchestrated this or even saw it coming. And it continues to spread and have far ranging effects.

Algeria lifted their 19 year-old "state of emergency today" in an effort to fend off pro-democracy demonstrations there.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/af...ria.emergency/

[stumbler]

While the attention seems to be focused on Libya (which is probably no accident) there are also protesters for government reform dying in Iraq.

Iraq protesters held a day of rage and so far they say six people have died.

BAGHDAD (AP) - Thousands marched on government buildings and clashed with security forces in cities across Iraq on Friday, in the largest and most violent anti-government protests here since political unrest began spreading in the Arab world several weeks ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_828149.html

[stumbler]

I just had to add this. Gaddafi gave another speech earlier today where he said he was going to arm the citizens and arm the tribes to crush the protesters.

Just a few minutes ago the Libyan Ambassador to the UN said Gaddafi was bluffing about that. In fact he almost double dog dared him to give guns to the people.

Any gun Gaddafi gives to someone is probably going to be used on him, the ambassador predicted.

[Pussy Patrol]

The dress sense alone is enough to get him ousted...

[Distant Lover]

The turmoil in the Near East could be good for the United States or very bad.

The best we can hope for is the creation of reasonably competent democratic governments that are not anti-American, that do not want to destroy Israel, and that sell us oil.

The worst possible case scenario would be for the area to devolve into chaos and civil war, and for the price of oil to double or triple in a few months.

Right now I feel a tempered optimism. The revolutionary crowds do not seem to be anti American or anti Israel, only anti the dictator in power.

[stumbler]

From what I've read this morning Gaddafi is remaining defiant in Tripoli and handing out some cash and weapons to supporters. But in the meantime the opposition continues to gain ground outside Tripoli and it appears they will actually move into Tripoli.

What could be a bad sign for Gaddafi, however, is his "voluptuous" nurse has reportedly bailed on him and went back to the Ukraine.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_829093.html

[richief]

Our PM as stated he is attempting to set up a no fly zone over Libya, the bells are now tolling on the Colonel but he and his staunchest acolytes are going to hold out a little longer. Now we are getting close to an armed uprising, I think the freedom they yearn will be attained by wading through a river of blood.

[tenguy]

Originally Posted by stumbler

From what I've read this morning Gaddafi is remaining defiant in Tripoli and handing out some cash and weapons to supporters. But in the meantime the opposition continues to gain ground outside Tripoli and it appears they will actually move into Tripoli.

What could be a bad sign for Gaddafi, however, is his "voluptuous" nurse has reportedly bailed on him and went back to the Ukraine.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_829093.html

Originally Posted by richief

Our PM as stated he is attempting to set up a no fly zone over Libya, the bells are now tolling on the Colonel but he and his staunchest acolytes are going to hold out a little longer. Now we are getting close to an armed uprising, I think the freedom they yearn will be attained by wading through a river of blood.

Why do the events of this period of time, seem so remarkably like the run up to the Iraq war?

Dictator killing civilians, UN issuing resolutions, Western countries promising to aid the revolutionaries, said dictator become more belligerent, defector issuing statements about said dictators involvement in international terrorism.

Here I thought the progressives were going to handle foreign policy differently, this time.