Obama administration ok's gun smuggling too Mexico

[CS natureboy]

A U.S. law enforcement operation intended to crack down on major weapons traffickers on the Southwest border spiraled out of control as federal agents were told by superiors to "stand down" and ignore weapons bought in Arizona headed for Mexico, a House panel heard Wednesday.
Three federal firearms investigators told the House Oversight and Government Reform committee that they wanted to "intervene and interdict" loads of guns, but were repeatedly ordered to step aside.
"Allowing loads of weapons that we knew to be destined for criminals -- this was the plan," John Dodson, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent, testified to the panel. "It was so mandated."

He added: "My supervisors directed me and my colleagues not to make any stop or arrest, but rather, to keep the straw purchaser under surveillance while allowing the guns to walk."
ATF agent Olindo James Casa said that "on several occasions I personally requested to interdict or seize firearms, but I was always ordered to stand down and not to seize the firearms."
Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the panel, has spearheaded the congressional investigation into the ATF's "Operation Fast and Furious." He said the hopes of scoring a knockout blow against the Mexican cartels badly misfired, and then continued over the objections of federal agents.
The program came to a crashing halt in January with the death of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. Two guns purchased under ATF surveillance were found near Terry's corpse, but it is unknown whether they were used in his death.
Peter Forcelli, an ATF supervisory special agent who testified at the hearing, told Fox News that tracking the bullet and gun that killed him depended on the evidence. A projectile recovered from the corpse can be matched with a murder weapon, he said.
"But with a rifle, the possibility exists that the round would penetrate the body and body armor and possibly never be recovered," he said. "And if that happens, you can't show that weapon was utilized in the homicide because you are missing that piece of ballistic evidence. That's where you would rely on witnesses or other types physical evidence found at the scene."
Members of Terry's family appeared before the committee Wednesday, asking how it happened and what will be done to ensure it doesn't happen again.
"We hope that all individuals involved in Brian's murder, and those that played a role in putting the assault weapons in their hands are found and prosecuted to the full extent of the law," said Robert Heyer, a cousin of Terry.
Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, said accountability is needed and the only question is how high does it go.
"The president said he didn't authorize it, and that the attorney general didn't authorize it. They have both admitted that quote unquote a serious mistake may have been made," he said. "There are a lot of questions and a lot of investigating to do, but one thing has become clear already -- this was no mistake."
Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said that an investigation and prosecution continues into Terry's shooting death, which has led to the indictment of at least one suspect who is in federal custody.
"Operation Fast and Furious is a criminal investigation—led by U.S. Attorney’s Office prosecutors and ATF agents—aimed at dismantling a significant transnational gun-trafficking enterprise and the network of those who support the enterprise’s criminal efforts, an investigation which has led already to the indictment of 20 defendants," he said.
Issa's hearing came one day after his panel released a draft report concluding the busted operation was a deadly strategy that left a trail of blood and bodies throughout the Southwest. The report concluded that a reckless and irresponsible chain of command ignored repeated warnings the plan would fail.
"You've got people who are dead, you have weapons that are missing and you have an administration that doesn't seem to want to take any accountability for it," said Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, and a member of the panel. "There is absolutely no justification, no justification for this. There are people that are going to have to be held accountable."
Findings from the preliminary report include:
-- Agents expected to interdict weapons, yet were told to stand down and “just surveil.” Agents therefore did not act. They watched straw purchasers buy hundreds of weapons illegally and transfer those weapons to unknown third parties and stash houses.
-- ATF agents complained about the strategy of allowing guns to walk in Operation Fast and Furious. Leadership ignored their concerns. Instead, supervisors told the agents to “get with the program” because senior ATF officials had sanctioned the operation.
-- Agents knew that given the large numbers of weapons being trafficked to Mexico, tragic results were a near certainty.
-- Operation Fast and Furious contributed to the increasing violence and deaths in Mexico. This result was regarded with "giddy" optimism by ATF supervisors hoping that guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico would provide the nexus to straw purchasers in Phoenix.
That last finding is sure to anger Mexico, which has so far been muted in its criticism. In a March 2010 memo, ATF says it allowed gun smugglers to buy 359 guns while 958 people died in Mexico the same month. Internally, the agency was "trumpeting up the violence that was occurring as a result of an ATF sanctioned program."
Fox News' William LaJeunesse contributed to this report.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/15/house-panel-slams-fast-and-furious-gun-operation-tied-to-border-agents-death/#ixzz1PNjR35ga

[AZRIEL]

ZOOMA-ZOOM.jpg

[anotheruser1]

like i have said before, saftey and people mean nothing to the government and politicians. The only thing they care about is money, that goes in their pockets.

[x__orion]

Dude, stop posting in white. Don't change the text colour.

People on the 'default' forum skin can't read it!

[CS natureboy]

Originally Posted by x__orion

Dude, stop posting in white. Don't change the text colour.

People on the 'default' forum skin can't read it!

OK, sorry.....

[anotheruser1]

Originally Posted by x__orion

Dude, stop posting in white. Don't change the text colour.

People on the 'default' forum skin can't read it!

yeah, i had to highlight to read. No big thing though.

[BigTrobbing]

What makes me wonder about this is, was this going to be a way for obozo and the gun control nuts to try and disarm Americans. They have said in the past that all the weapons in mexico were from America even clinton said that.


Then 2 Border Patrol were shot one with an AK-47 and I am not sure the other, and all hell broke lose.

The big question is when will Holder resign and what did obozo know and when did he know it.

[Baddog_WOOF]

Since when did the smuggling of assault rifles into Mexico bother Republicans?
Oh, after Obama became President.
*yawn*
More whining from conservatives about Obama.
Nothing new

[Baddog_WOOF]

"Two guns purchased under ATF surveillance were found near Terry's corpse, but it is unknown whether they were used in his death.

Peter Forcelli, an ATF supervisory special agent who testified at the hearing, told Fox News that tracking the bullet and gun that killed him depended on the evidence. A projectile recovered from the corpse can be matched with a murder weapon, he said.

"But with a rifle, the possibility exists that the round would penetrate the body and body armor and possibly never be recovered," he said. "And if that happens, you can't show that weapon was utilized in the homicide because you are missing that piece of ballistic evidence. That's where you would rely on witnesses or other types physical evidence found at the scene."

No mention of finding the bullet.
No mention of any physical evidence found at the scene tying a specific weapon to the murder of U.S Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.
No mention of any witnesses.

No evidence, no proof, nothing to tie the operation to the murder of Brian Terry, yet FOX News titles the article "House Panel Slams 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation Tied to Border Agent's Death".

Yellow journalism at its best

[Kimiko]

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

What makes me wonder about this is, was this going to be a way for obozo and the gun control nuts to try and disarm Americans. They have said in the past that all the weapons in mexico were from America even clinton said that.


Then 2 Border Patrol were shot one with an AK-47 and I am not sure the other, and all hell broke lose.

The big question is when will Holder resign and what did obozo know and when did he know it.

You guys really amaze me, you know that? Republicans spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to make it easier (if not mandatory) for people in the United States to buy weapons, including assault weapons, and to oppose/eliminate any restrictions on said purchases, and now you're all wringing your hands about the fact that a lot of them end up in Mexico??

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by Kimiko

You guys really amaze me, you know that? Republicans spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to make it easier (if not mandatory) for people in the United States to buy weapons, including assault weapons, and to oppose/eliminate any restrictions on said purchases, and now you're all wringing your hands about the fact that a lot of them end up in Mexico??

Congress did not approve operation 'fast and furious'. This is more evidence that this country is under the wrath of an out of control administration, and it is not welcome. This country is based under a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, not a dictatorship.

Our rights, state that we have the ''RIGHT'' to bear arms in this country. If the left wants to change those rights, your more than welcome do try it, until then,, deal with it.

[Prurient Purveyer]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Congress did not approve operation 'fast and furious'. This is more evidence that this country is under the wrath of an out of control administration, and it is not welcome. This country is based under a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, not a dictatorship.

Our rights, state that we have the ''RIGHT'' to bear arms in this country. If the left wants to change those rights, your more than welcome do try it, until then,, deal with it.

There's actually more to this:
Another of the three investigators, Peter Forcelli, said that "based upon my conversations with agents who assisted in this case, surveillance on individuals who had acquired weapons was often terminated far from the Mexican border." Forcelli said that while case agents believed that weapons were destined for Mexico, "the potential exists that many were sent with cartel drugs to other points within the United States."
"I can't tell you the why" the surveillances were called off, Dodson testified. "Hopefully ... this committee can find out." But the committee did not ask that question of any of the non-agent witnesses Wednesday.
The operation was designed to respond to criticism that the agency had focused on small-time gun arrests while major traffickers eluded prosecution.
As recently as last November, Justice's inspector general criticized ATF for focusing "largely on inspections of gun dealers and investigations of straw purchasers, rather than on higher-level traffickers, smugglers and the ultimate recipients of the trafficked guns." The IG said some ATF managers discourage agents from conducting complex conspiracy investigations that target high-level traffickers.
"Federal prosecutors told us that directing the efforts ... toward building larger, multi-defendant conspiracy cases would better disrupt trafficking organizations," the IG said
Operation Fast and Furious came to light after two assault rifles purchased by a now-indicted small-time buyer under scrutiny in the operation turned up at a shootout in Arizona where Customs and Border Protection agent Brian Terry was killed.




Just to focus on one part:

"As recently as last November, Justice's inspector general criticized ATF for focusing "largely on inspections of gun dealers and investigations of straw purchasers, rather than on higher-level traffickers, smugglers and the ultimate recipients of the trafficked guns."


So they were doing what the three Agents had said they should and were criticized, from on high, for doing it.


Just can't win really. And it didn't come from Obama so all the Grassy Knoll Conspiracy Theorists can relax it was just another twist in the story of the supply of drugs to the States through Mexico. It has been happening for quite a while and it will keep on happening because there's lots of easy money to be made and the animals doing it are exceptionally callous individuals.


http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9NT09580.htm

[runequester]

Surely guns ending up in the hands of mexican gangsters is just the free market working?

[Phillip_Unger]

keep on TELL THE THRUTH!! OBAMA JUST WAITING FOR ALL US TO KILL OURSELVES!!

[BigTrobbing]

Originally Posted by Kimiko

You guys really amaze me, you know that? Republicans spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to make it easier (if not mandatory) for people in the United States to buy weapons, including assault weapons, and to oppose/eliminate any restrictions on said purchases, and now you're all wringing your hands about the fact that a lot of them end up in Mexico??

Tell us how Republicans want to make it easier???? Tell us or are you talking out your ass once more. What law are we against???

As for you talking about mandatory, where ?? Do you mean the black man (perhaps you are a RACIST) in IL that was robbed several times and yet mayor dailey refuses to allow people to have guns legally??? Wait people do have them don't they, the only problem is it is the CRIMINAL. Why do you fucken progressives always want the criminal armed but NOT the legal citizen???? WHY.

Why is it YOUR business what kind of weapons people buy as long as they are checked out by the ATF??? Every purchace of a weapon from a gun dealer HAS form 4473 filled out. Unless your a criminal and you rob someones house and get a gun without that. Then when they are caught the DA makes a deal a drops the gun charges (I know that happens as a fact)

The guns in mexico is what that low life President they have in mexico said and so did hillery clinton, well that was not happening UNTIL obozo and holder started with the Fast and Furious gun sales. Try reading on how all that went down. One instance a girl comes into a gun store and puts $10,000.00 on the counter for about 30 AK-47's, the dealer calls it in (keep in mind she is a STRAW buyer) the ATF on the phone says Good to go so he releases the weapons to her. It is not the dealers fault it is the ATF but they got their orders from above and many of the lower ATF agents said that. SO put the blame where it belongs on holder and obozo's desk. Typical fucken progressives.



We do not oppose laws for buying the weapons, But when the ATF lets straw buyers buy weapons (and that is what happened here) and then have a border patrol agent shot and killed by that weapon that is wrong. I could give a rats ass who is President at the time.

How about you tell us, because you seem to know, when GW allowed something like this happen?? And do not even try and say obozo knew nothing, that will not fly. NO agency would do this without holder and higher ups knowing.

How about you and your ACLU buddies who want privacy for nut jobs and their medical records?? If the nut in the AZ shooting had his records sent to the proper people he would not have bought that weapon. But you fucken progressives will have NON of that. God forbid a nut is banned from something, you wipes all think they can be rehabilitated well your fuckers are WRONG.

[runequester]

So where did the guns in mexico come from before Obama was elected?

Because the drug lords haven't been fighting the mexican army with harsh language and ill wishes

[stumbler]

This one will be worth watching because this looks like one of the dumber moves or perhaps more precisely a dumber knee jerk reaction to a report that said the ATF was not arresting enough big time gun runners that a government agency has made in awhile.

I think we can rest assured that whoever came up with and approved it is gone and the only question is how high up the chain of command its going to go. But as the OP already stated it doesn't go back to President Obama and as far as Federal law enforcement fuck ups it does not rise to the level of Waco or Ruby Ridge.

And I keep hearing that what we're seeing here is just the tip of the scandalous iceberg and that aside from decisions that in all probability got people killed the level of US corruption revealed might be staggering.

But as bad is it gets you're never going to see perfection out of humans and some of the smartest of us are very often wrong. So we'll just see what shakes out.

But watch the NRA and Gunowners end up taking the hit here and new regulations rolling down the GOP pike.

[CS natureboy]

Originally Posted by stumbler

This one will be worth watching because this looks like one of the dumber moves or perhaps more precisely a dumber knee jerk reaction to a report that said the ATF was not arresting enough big time gun runners that a government agency has made in awhile.

I think we can rest assured that whoever came up with and approved it is gone and the only question is how high up the chain of command its going to go. But as the OP already stated it doesn't go back to President Obama and as far as Federal law enforcement fuck ups it does not rise to the level of Waco or Ruby Ridge.

And I keep hearing that what we're seeing here is just the tip of the scandalous iceberg and that aside from decisions that in all probability got people killed the level of US corruption revealed might be staggering.

But as bad is it gets you're never going to see perfection out of humans and some of the smartest of us are very often wrong. So we'll just see what shakes out.

But watch the NRA and Gunowners end up taking the hit here and new regulations rolling down the GOP pike.

New "regulations" will not solve this problem. This story is a very good example of the authorities/government not enforcing the laws on the books right now.

You can make all the regulations and laws you want. However, if no one is willing to enforce those laws, they mean nothing.

[BigTrobbing]

Poor poor obozo and holder.

They started this program with the hope of getting stricter gun laws in America, and it blew up in his face.

Project gun runner stated in early 2009, Now who was the President Of The United States????? that's right OBOZO..


Here is a link::: http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com...and-batfe.html


Tisk Tisk Now all they have to do is break holder and maybe he will give up obozo and then we can let the IMPEACHMENT begin. LOL LOL LOL

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

Poor poor obozo and holder.

They started this program with the hope of getting stricter gun laws in America, and it blew up in his face.

Project gun runner stated in early 2009, Now who was the President Of The United States????? that's right OBOZO..


Here is a link::: http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com...and-batfe.html


Tisk Tisk Now all they have to do is break holder and maybe he will give up obozo and then we can let the IMPEACHMENT begin. LOL LOL LOL

Don't you wish??

The guy who approved the mission and will probably end resigning is Ken Melson a Bush hold-over that was the acting director of the ATF thanks to conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers putting secret holds on most President Obama's political appointees.

http://www.mainjustice.com/tag/ken-melson/

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Congress did not approve operation 'fast and furious'. This is more evidence that this country is under the wrath of an out of control administration, and it is not welcome. This country is based under a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, not a dictatorship.

Our rights, state that we have the ''RIGHT'' to bear arms in this country. If the left wants to change those rights, your more than welcome do try it, until then,, deal with it.

Then tell your conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger buddies in the Senate to stop blocking President Obama's nomination because your Bush holder-overs are getting people killed.

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Then tell your conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger buddies in the Senate to stop blocking President Obama's nomination because your Bush holder-overs are getting people killed.

Might I be as bold as to ask for an explanation for your response.

[BigTrobbing]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Then tell your conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger buddies in the Senate to stop blocking President Obama's nomination because your Bush holder-overs are getting people killed.

HEY FUCK HEAD, he is in OBOZOS administration I could care less where he was before he was in THIS one you fucken moron.

This is really going to fuck obozo up, I cannot wait until ISSA sends out those invites to see the congress.

This is all his, you can say what you want but under the OBOZO administration this took place, you fuck heads always want to blame someone else that is typical you know progressives NEVER take the blame but if this worked out to Americans losing the second amendment then you would have been cheering. And as for your little hold over comment shit head. Who runs the senate??? It is not the Republicans it is your friends harry dick reid. So stop with the crap, obozo is fucked and you cannot tell us with a straight face that holder did this on his own, it had to come from obozo himself. DO you remember his and hitlery talking about all the weapons (supposedly) going from America to mexico?? Hopefully she is involved also along with the head mexican that told OUR congress how it is all our fault. Well fuck that mexican piece of shit let him fix his own country before he pisses about ours..

And keep in mind when people (like the ones in mexico) get automatic weapons they do not get them from a gun shop in America (unless you know of one that will sell it to anyone without an FFL for a full automatic) they get them from other countries army's.

What a stupid FUCK HEAD you keep proving you actually are.

[runequester]

So I just want to make sure:

Posters in this thread are calling for federal limitation on private enterprise (i.e. gun owners selling to whomever they want) ?

[Prurient Purveyer]

Originally Posted by runequester

So I just want to make sure:

Posters in this thread are calling for federal limitation on private enterprise (i.e. gun owners selling to whomever they want) ?

That's a provocative little question runequester.

The issue isn't the right of American Citizens to trade at all its the use of straw buyers to get round the restrictions on the sale of guns to felons and their illegal smuggling into Mexico.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Might I be as bold as to ask for an explanation for your response.

Sure. President Obama has been stuck with Ken Melson as the temporary head of the ATF because the conservative/Repubican/Tea Baggers are blocking President Obama's appointment of Andrew Traver as director on behalf of the National Rifle Association.

Now pay attention for the rest of the story.

Can't you just hear my hysterical old grandma from here.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

HEY FUCK HEAD, he is in OBOZOS administration I could care less where he was before he was in THIS one you fucken moron.

But that's just because you're a brainwashed ignorant fool getting all hysterical over something that's actually going to help get more gun control laws and regulations passed and probably help President indirectly.

And while you're just standing there jumping up and down in this temper tantrum you can watch it happen just like this.

This really stupid decision will not even effect Eric Holder and he's the one who recommended Ken Melson. How was he supposed to know that president George Bush had actually appointed a loose cannon with no common sense.

But it will also call attention to two very much needed changes. One being tighter controls on semi automatic weapons and high capacity clips and two conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger obstruction of President Obama's appointments must stop because the Bush holder-overs are getting people killed.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

This is really going to fuck obozo up, I cannot wait until ISSA sends out those invites to see the congress.

Issa can send out all he wants to but you can look back at the Bush scandals or any president really and you'll figure out they've been smart enough to insulate themselves and their appointees from the beginning.

But like I said I'm more than glad to just stand here and watch while you remain hysterical. Because even in the most extreme case that Eric Holder knew about and approved operation fast and furious it still won't touch President Obama.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

This is all his, you can say what you want but under the OBOZO administration this took place, you fuck heads always want to blame someone else that is typical you know progressives NEVER take the blame but if this worked out to Americans losing the second amendment then you would have been cheering.

On no don't you worry about that. You cry and watch both Eric Holder and President Obama will shoulder their part of the blame for appointing an idiot like Melson and having to fire him.

Its just too bad the conservative/Republican/Tea baggers in congress and the NRA caused it by blocking someone that is more intelligent and would not have made the same mistake.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

And as for your little hold over comment shit head. Who runs the senate??? It is not the Republicans it is your friends harry dick reid.

This is the part I love the best. When you say something just so flat out stupid you prove yourself to be the ignorant brainwashed fool I say you are.

Republican senators have been placing secret holds on President nominees and not allowing them to come up for senate vote. They are blocking judges, department heads, and directors just like the ATF. Its so bad even the supreme court justices have complained to congress about the work load from vacant judgships.

And only a really ignorant, brainwashed, grandma hysterical fool would not know that.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...-after-all.php

http://www.majorityrules.org/2010/05...-to-block.html

http://www.politicususa.com/en/gop-secret-hold

http://www.care2.com/causes/judges-t...minations.html

This is the fun part you hysterical old woman you.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

So stop with the crap, obozo is fucked and you cannot tell us with a straight face that holder did this on his own, it had to come from obozo himself.

I can tell you with a straight face that there is at this point at least no evidence what so ever that anyone other than Ken Melson made the decision to pursue operation Fast and Furious. And that Melson's involvement was very much hands on including him actually watching hidden video cameras of the gun buys.

And I will add that the Reagan handlers might have brought probable deniability to the presidency but that doesn't mean every president since hasn't found it a very useful political tool.

But tell you what. Instead of just jumping up and down screaming hysterically why don't you try just holding your breath until you see president Obama get hurt by this?

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

DO you remember his and hitlery talking about all the weapons (supposedly) going from America to mexico?? Hopefully she is involved also along with the head mexican that told OUR congress how it is all our fault. Well fuck that mexican piece of shit let him fix his own country before he pisses about ours..

Yes, I very much do remember those discussions but it would have been politically inefficient for President Obama to call for any new gun laws or regulations or heaven for bid take on the US gun selling lobby. But now we've got this terrible incident to highlight just how much needed more gun control actually is.

And what you're really going to get out of this is federal regulations essentially requiring all gun sales to follow the same state and federal laws that are required of gun stores. You'll also see the ban on assault weapons and high capacity clips.

Because if our government can't even stay out of the gun running business things are just entirely out of control.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

And keep in mind when people (like the ones in mexico) get automatic weapons they do not get them from a gun shop in America (unless you know of one that will sell it to anyone without an FFL for a full automatic) they get them from other countries army's.

Who said anything about automatic weapons. Because even though most of the semi automatic assault rifles sold in the US can be converted to fully automatic its not easy or common because the semi-automatic rifles and guns with the high capacity clip work just fine at killing everyone big enough to die.

So no, there's probably plenty of restrictions and regulations concerning fully automatic machine guns. Its the assault rifles and high capacity clips that are killing the people in Mexico with only an occasional military weapon thrown in. So those are the ones they are going to go after as well as gun dealers and gun.

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

What a stupid FUCK HEAD you keep proving you actually are.

You're obviously the babbling ignorant brainwashed hysteric and that's really obvious

Originally Posted by runequester

So I just want to make sure:

Posters in this thread are calling for federal limitation on private enterprise (i.e. gun owners selling to whomever they want) ?

Yeah ain't it great.

The Obama haters didn't even see themselves walking straight into this one. The conervative/Republican/Tea Baggers are so eager to bash him on every single thing they don't realize the are calling for more gun control on one hand and giving President Obama a chance to point out their obstructionism is getting people killed on the other hand.

[ace's n 8's]

[QUOTE=stumbler;4175188]

Sure. President Obama has been stuck with Ken Melson as the temporary head of the ATF because the conservative/Repubican/Tea Baggers are blocking President Obama's appointment of Andrew Traver as director on behalf of the National Rifle Association.

I see now,, if the republicans would stop blocking Obama's appointee Andrew Travor, there would not have been a scandal in the works. Maybe if Travor was not an episodically dishonest campaigner against Americans’ right to keep and bear arms, maybe he would be head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

Now pay attention for the rest of the story.

I'll tell you,,the rest of the story, then maybe you'll learn something.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

I see now,, if the republicans would stop blocking Obama's appointee Andrew Travor, there would not have been a scandal in the works.

Well we do know that's who President Obama wants to head the agency and we know the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress are blocking his appointment now don't we?

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Maybe if Travor was not an episodically dishonest campaigner against Americans’ right to keep and bear arms, maybe he would be head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

And maybe if he was Travor would be the one who approved a mission that got people killed. But no if's about it it was not. It was someone Bush appointed and got held over because of Republican obstructionism.

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

I'll tell you,,the rest of the story, then maybe you'll learn something.

You go right ahead. But you've got to admit that we sure do need more gun regulations if we've got cooperative businesses selling to straw buyers don't we?

Or are you saying there were no guns from the US going into Mexico before operation Fast and Furious and none of them are going in now?

Would you say something that stupid Ace?

[prtndr]

As it happens, I was looking into this today. Here's some links:

First of all, read the primary material. Here's the Joint Staff Report to the congressional committes conducting the investigation. Read it and make up your own mind:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...ATF_Report.pdf

It's pretty clear to me from the report that the ATF and DOJ violated their own investigation procedure, purposely putting very deadly weapons into the hands of the drug cartels. Know what a Barrett .50 cal can do? ATF gave these to the cartel. The director of the ATF was expected to resign over this today. I don't think that's going far enough.

Now, I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but as someone else noted above, this is pretty suspicious. I can understand how some might surmise that the administration was working not to curtail the movement of weapons into drug cartel hands, but instead to set up conditions conducive to more draconian restrictions on the ownership and transfer of weapons within the US. After all, Obama himself has been quoted as saying his adminisration is working to extend gun controls "below the radar". Here's a piece making that case:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mega-sc...r-gun-control/

If this is true, the willingness of the administration to sacrifice the lives of US citizens and law enforcement officials to gain a political advantage is heinous, not to mention criminal.

Finally, while we're at it, let's elimiinate one of the lies that's bound to come up in this discussion - the one that states that 90% of the weapons used by the drug cartels come from US gun dealers. Here's an article noting testimony by an official of the ATF to Congress pointing out the erroneous number and how it was generated:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimo...0-percent-lie/

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by prtndr

As it happens, I was looking into this today. Here's some links:

First of all, read the primary material. Here's the Joint Staff Report to the congressional committes conducting the investigation. Read it and make up your own mind:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...ATF_Report.pdf

It's pretty clear to me from the report that the ATF and DOJ violated their own investigation procedure, purposely putting very deadly weapons into the hands of the drug cartels. Know what a Barrett .50 cal can do? ATF gave these to the cartel. The director of the ATF was expected to resign over this today. I don't think that's going far enough.

Now, I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but as someone else noted above, this is pretty suspicious. I can understand how some might surmise that the administration was working not to curtail the movement of weapons into drug cartel hands, but instead to set up conditions conducive to more draconian restrictions on the ownership and transfer of weapons within the US. After all, Obama himself has been quoted as saying his adminisration is working to extend gun controls "below the radar". Here's a piece making that case:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mega-sc...r-gun-control/

If this is true, the willingness of the administration to sacrifice the lives of US citizens and law enforcement officials to gain a political advantage is heinous, not to mention criminal.

Finally, while we're at it, let's elimiinate one of the lies that's bound to come up in this discussion - the one that states that 90% of the weapons used by the drug cartels come from US gun dealers. Here's an article noting testimony by an official of the ATF to Congress pointing out the erroneous number and how it was generated:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimo...0-percent-lie/

I'm really glad you weighed in on this since you actually work for the government and I bet you do have an inside track. Which I find most encouraging because you Obama Haters can't have it both ways.

This was either an act of Obama Administration incompetence or it was a covert action to enrage the public to new gun laws. But it can not be both.

That's my first solid standing. And my second one is that no humans are perfect. And stupid abounds. We just found another one and he's been fired. And if it was not for George Bush he probably never would have been hired.

Like I said when you compare this to Waco you ain't got shit as far as survivable government stupidity.

Which you're not immune to I don't think.

[Prurient Purveyer]

Originally Posted by prtndr

As it happens, I was looking into this today. Here's some links:

First of all, read the primary material. Here's the Joint Staff Report to the congressional committes conducting the investigation. Read it and make up your own mind:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...ATF_Report.pdf

It's pretty clear to me from the report that the ATF and DOJ violated their own investigation procedure, purposely putting very deadly weapons into the hands of the drug cartels. Know what a Barrett .50 cal can do? ATF gave these to the cartel. The director of the ATF was expected to resign over this today. I don't think that's going far enough.

Now, I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but as someone else noted above, this is pretty suspicious. I can understand how some might surmise that the administration was working not to curtail the movement of weapons into drug cartel hands, but instead to set up conditions conducive to more draconian restrictions on the ownership and transfer of weapons within the US. After all, Obama himself has been quoted as saying his adminisration is working to extend gun controls "below the radar". Here's a piece making that case:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/mega-sc...r-gun-control/

If this is true, the willingness of the administration to sacrifice the lives of US citizens and law enforcement officials to gain a political advantage is heinous, not to mention criminal.

Finally, while we're at it, let's elimiinate one of the lies that's bound to come up in this discussion - the one that states that 90% of the weapons used by the drug cartels come from US gun dealers. Here's an article noting testimony by an official of the ATF to Congress pointing out the erroneous number and how it was generated:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimo...0-percent-lie/

Thanks for posting that, very informative.

If there's a positive to all this ,for me its the fact that in the US everyone in an official position is answerable- the truth does come out.

And,um, no, not really keen on being used to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Barrett 50 cal thanks ever so much.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Prurient Purveyer

Thanks for posting that, very informative.

If there's a positive to all this ,for me its the fact that in the US everyone in an official position is answerable- the truth does come out.

And,um, no, not really keen on being used to demonstrate the effectiveness of the Barrett 50 cal thanks ever so much.

I agree. Since we can't seem to keep guns from falling out of grade school kids pockets I think we need to limit the kinds and number of guns falling into the hands of idiots.

Glad to have you on board.

[ace's n 8's]

[QUOTE=stumbler;4175842]

Well we do know that's who President Obama wants to head the agency and we know the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress are blocking his appointment now don't we?

There blocking his appointment because they dont want him in there,,they have been more than lenient with the rest of Obama's appointees.

And maybe if he was Travor would be the one who approved a mission that got people killed. But no if's about it it was not. It was someone Bush appointed and got held over because of Republican obstructionism.

The government made an ignorant decision in hind sight,,only because they had an agenda, that the idea of more gun control could come from this,,, but it backfired on them, tenfold.

You go right ahead. But you've got to admit that we sure do need more gun regulations if we've got cooperative businesses selling to straw buyers don't we?

There are plenty of federal regulations in place by the FFA. Those businesses did their job and alerted the feds on the suspicious activity,m they were told by the federal government,to keep selling those weapons.

Or are you saying there were no guns from the US going into Mexico before operation Fast and Furious and none of them are going in now?

Do you think I'm that foolish, the weapons came from all over,. and our federal government knew what those weapons were being used for, yet they foolishly started this 'operation'.

Would you say something that stupid Ace?

Sometimes I may guilty of saying something stupid,,,just a smidgeon.
Not this time.

[ace's n 8's]

RUH ROHHH,,congressman Issa is all over this,,WE WILL GET THE TRUTH..Issa has stated the Eric Holder was lying about his knowledge of this,, Issa stated Holder knew about this longer and earlier than Holder said....I love this shit..

[michelleIShot]

Originally Posted by CS natureboy

OK, sorry.....

Typical for our current administration

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

There blocking his appointment because they dont want him in there,,they have been more than lenient with the rest of Obama's appointees.

No actually the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress are blocking a record number of appointments and using secret holds to do it which allows even one Senator to put a hold on an appointment anonymously.

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

The government made an ignorant decision in hind sight,,only because they had an agenda, that the idea of more gun control could come from this,,, but it backfired on them, tenfold.

You're backasswards on that one again, Ace. The ATF was (in response to a critical report) trying to bust higher up gun smugglers to the drug cartels instead of having to bow to increasing pressure for more gun controls.

Which obviously we really need if these straw buyers can purchase these kinds of guns this easily.

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

There are plenty of federal regulations in place by the FFA. Those businesses did their job and alerted the feds on the suspicious activity,m they were told by the federal government,to keep selling those weapons.

Oh so the flow of guns into Mexico has stopped, did you say Ace? Or are they still going on like today?

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Do you think I'm that foolish, the weapons came from all over,. and our federal government knew what those weapons were being used for, yet they foolishly started this 'operation'.

No I think you're painted into a corner you can't get out of.

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Sometimes I may guilty of saying something stupid,,,just a smidgeon.
Not this time.

Good because what Operation Fast And Furious really proved is we've got far to many hands in the guns of idiots probably because we've got so many idiots trying to keep form having any gun laws passed.

[prtndr]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Good because what Operation Fast And Furious really proved is we've got far to many hands in the guns of idiots probably because we've got so many idiots trying to keep form having any gun laws passed.

I can see your language skills remain at the same level as your thought processes.

In the words of that famous American philosopher, Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

Dismissed.

[prtndr]

And now we've moved on to standard leftist response tactics. When they catch you doing something illegal with the intent of subjugating the citizenry, get your pet newspaper to lie and attack your accuser:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalk...unleashes-msm/

[smoke30]

Originally Posted by BigTrobbing

What makes me wonder about this is, was this going to be a way for obozo and the gun control nuts to try and disarm Americans. They have said in the past that all the weapons in mexico were from America even clinton said that.


Then 2 Border Patrol were shot one with an AK-47 and I am not sure the other, and all hell broke lose.

The big question is when will Holder resign and what did obozo know and when did he know it.

Hell yeah it was a gun control ploy! Obama can deny he knew about it but I say he knew.

[smoke30]

Originally Posted by stumbler

No actually the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress are blocking a record number of appointments and using secret holds to do it which allows even one Senator to put a hold on an appointment anonymously.




You're backasswards on that one again, Ace. The ATF was (in response to a critical report) trying to bust higher up gun smugglers to the drug cartels instead of having to bow to increasing pressure for more gun controls.

Which obviously we really need if these straw buyers can purchase these kinds of guns this easily.



Oh so the flow of guns into Mexico has stopped, did you say Ace? Or are they still going on like today?



No I think you're painted into a corner you can't get out of.



Good because what Operation Fast And Furious really proved is we've got far to many hands in the guns of idiots probably because we've got so many idiots trying to keep form having any gun laws passed.

You probably never owned or held a gun.

[prtndr]

More on the criminality of this entire enterprise.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/operati...t-and-furious/

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by prtndr

I can see your language skills remain at the same level as your thought processes.

In the words of that famous American philosopher, Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

Dismissed.

Thank you for the correction. I do have a new computer with features I'm not used to yet which include the ability to switch stuff around with key strokes. Which I don't know because they are actually typographical errors.

Originally Posted by prtndr

And now we've moved on to standard leftist response tactics. When they catch you doing something illegal with the intent of subjugating the citizenry, get your pet newspaper to lie and attack your accuser:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalk...unleashes-msm/

But you're still left with a direct contradiction here that you haven't resolved. Which is it? An incredibly successful attempt to deceive both the government and the citizens into an operation like Fast and Furious which is so diabolical it will help the Obama Administration pass gun control laws.

Or, Operation Fast and Furious shows the utter incompetence of the Obama Administration.

Which one is it prtndr because it obviously can't be both can it?

By the your sources also uses "anonymous sources" to criticize the Post's "anonymous source." You can't get anymore hypocritical than that and I saw no real evidence to back up your source's claims.

If I missed it point it out to me.

Originally Posted by smoke30

You probably never owned or held a gun.

I own a few guns myself but often make the claim I bet I can out shoot you with your guns let alone mine. And I base that claim on a lifetimes worth of shooting and guiding and packing experience that brought me into lots of contact with people who claimed or even thought they could a gun.

I can't count the number of guys I hunted that said they could cover five shots on target with a half dollar at over 300 yards that could hit a more than foot square shoulder of an actual animal at less than 100 yards.

Originally Posted by prtndr

More on the criminality of this entire enterprise.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/operati...t-and-furious/

Your source just like you prtndr has a tendency to contradict itself and is once again using high placed sources and leaked information about allegedly leaked information to make an impassioned and very emotional case that's really short of actually facts but never ending speculation.

But just where is all the hell to pay over this prtndr? I'm not really seeing it in my travels and think you've just about got to be mining the right wing noise machine to find any comments on it from the right wing noise machine.

What I'm seeing is a much better case can be made for this is what we get when the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers block president Obama's appointments and Bush Hold overs run amuck.

And finally the absolute fallacy of you and your sources is that people got killed because these guns found their way into the hands of drug cartel members as if the drug cartel members didn't get guns from any other sources and so these people would not have been killed without operation fast and furious.

Bullshit. There's been thousands of killings before and after operation fast and furious and all other things being equal those people would have still gotten killed if Operation fast and furious had never existed.

[ace's n 8's]

[QUOTE=stumbler;4180902]

No actually the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress are blocking a record number of appointments and using secret holds to do it which allows even one Senator to put a hold on an appointment anonymously.

What the hell, there's always,,, 'CZARS',,Obama likes CZARS.

You're backasswards on that one again, Ace. The ATF was (in response to a critical report) trying to bust higher up gun smugglers to the drug cartels instead of having to bow to increasing pressure for more gun controls.

Which obviously we really need if these straw buyers can purchase these kinds of guns this easily.

The government lost this one.

Oh so the flow of guns into Mexico has stopped, did you say Ace? Or are they still going on like today?

Mexico is still getting guns, without the help of the ATF.

Good because what Operation Fast And Furious really proved is we've got far to many hands in the guns of idiots probably because we've got so many idiots trying to keep form having any gun laws passed.

What the hell are you talking about, our gun laws are for this nation, not for Mexico.

Unless of course, Clarise gets his/her way.

[crackedjaguar@hotmail.com]

I'ma going to post this little link here... What this wonderful smuggling has done
http://www1.stratfor.com/images/inte...ly_6_21_11.php

[crackedjaguar@hotmail.com]

This is one of the reports that I got with the above map


Around 5 a.m. on June 17, simultaneous firefights reportedly broke out between elements of the Gulf and Los Zetas cartels in several locations in Matamoros, Tamaulipas state, a Gulf stronghold. The Mexican military has confirmed that a gunbattle did indeed take place in the Colonia Pedro Moreno area but has not confirmed media reports of additional firefights in the Mariano Matamoros, Valle Alto, Puerto Rico and Seccion 16 neighborhoods. The military also has not confirmed a reported gunbattle in the rural area of Cabras Pintas, where six Mexican soldiers are said to have been killed.


Details of the confirmed firefight remain unclear, but from all indications, a large movement of Zeta forces into a Gulf stronghold did occur, and it suggests a heightened operational tempo in the war between these two cartels. In the coming months, this increasing violence is likely to continue in Gulf-held Reynosa and Zeta-held Monterrey as well as Matamoros

The Mexican military said the June 17 gunbattle in Matamoros’ Colonia Pedro Moreno neighborhood resulted in three deaths and nine arrests, while an unnamed U.S. law enforcement official said four Gulf cartel gunmen died in the exchange of fire. According to a Mexican army officer quoted in border media, a Mexican army “mechanized regiment” was patrolling in trucks in downtown Matamoros when the fighting erupted but did not participate. The media also quoted a U.S. law enforcement official confirming the presence of another mechanized regiment and claiming that this other regiment of soldiers traveling in trucks supported Los Zetas in an attempt to rescue 11 Zeta operatives, both male and female, who had been captured by the Gulf cartel June 16.

For its part, the Mexican military said a motorized army unit rescued 17 civilians who had been kidnapped, although it is uncertain how an army unit could have achieved this without being a part of the operation or participating in the firefight. At some point during the gunbattle, the leader of Los Zetas, Heriberto “El Lazca” Lazcano Lazcano, was reportedly killed, although STRATFOR doubts that he was present.

While reports of the Matamoros battle are conflicting, it is very likely that a large firefight did occur in the city between the Gulf cartel and Los Zetas and that it was initiated by the latter. Due to the conflicting information, we have been unable to determine the motive behind the Zeta assault, which reportedly involved a force of armed Zetas in 130 SUVs. However, we have seen several large Zeta raids into Gulf territory in recent months intended to undercut Gulf’s support network, and this raid into Matamoros would have been the largest one yet (at least that we are aware of).

Zetas leader Lazcano, a former member of the army’s Grupo Aeromovil de Fuerzas Especiales (GAFES), an elite special operations unit, is an “old Zeta.” He has good tactical and operational awareness and has proved himself to be a very rational decision-maker. Moving a convoy of 130 SUV’s nearly a half mile long (if they were bumper to bumper) into the heart of Gulf territory could not have achieved any element of surprise, which means Lazcano probably thought his force was large enough to accomplish the mission even if it was detected well in advance.

If the objective of this raid was to recover the 11 Zetas reportedly captured by Gulf forces, those prisoners must have been extremely valuable to the Zetas and possibly to Lazcano personally. Low-ranking members of an organization are typically not worth potential losses incurred in such an operation.

The reports that a motorized Mexican army regiment took part in the firefight alongside Zetas gunmen are likely untrue. While there is a corrupt element within the military, the chance of an entire regiment operating with cartel gunmen is quite remote. It is not uncommon for individual soldiers and smaller military units to be found in the employ of cartels, and perhaps a small element was working with the Zetas, but it could not have been a Mexican army regiment, which would number some 1,000 to 3,000 troops.

Whether the Zetas Matamoros raid was a deliberate strike against the Gulf cartel’s power base or an attempt to rescue a group of Zetas prisoners, we have been expecting to see this type of Zetas offensive for several months now. People and businesses should be aware of the probability of increasing violence in the coming months in Matamoros, Reynosa and Monterrey.

[prtndr]

CBS News confirms that another of the Fast and Furious guns was used in a drug cartel murder.

http://www.saysuncle.com/2011/06/24/...d-in-a-murder/

Let's summarize - the ATF ran a program that purposely put assault weapons into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels, and stopped the gun dealers and agents involved from doing anything to stop it, or even reporting what was happening. The weapons were used to murder one Mexican citizen and one US Border Patrol Agent - that we know of so far.

Based on those facts, and they are incontrovertible facts, please explain to me why this is a good thing.

[easttexasbadboy32]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Since we can't seem to keep guns from falling out of grade school kids pockets I think we need to limit the kinds and number of guns falling into the hands of idiots.

Passing laws will only affect the law-abiding ...and they aren't a problem.

Remember, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

[CFH420]

Originally Posted by easttexasbadboy32

Passing laws will only affect the law-abiding ...and they aren't a problem.

Remember, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Indeed. Also, at this point, there is nothing you can do to keep guns out of "the wrong hands"

At any time, I can go to the southside of my city where the illegals are, and buy an AK-47, SKS, or literally any kind of weapon I want, for ridiculously cheap. They even sell ammo cheaper then stores, which is why people are turning to them then the stores who charge ridiculous taxes.

[easttexasbadboy32]

Originally Posted by CFH420

Indeed. Also, at this point, there is nothing you can do to keep guns out of "the wrong hands"

Unfortunately that's reality. Even a full-on ban of all guns would be about as successful as the ban on cocaine or prostitution. All it would do is make criminals out of the law-abiding and render the innocent defenseless.

The solution I prefer is responsible concealed carry laws. Violent criminals tend to think twice when they don't know who around them is armed and ready to defend themselves with deadly force. Even if you don't carry, simply appearing to and living where it's common is a deterrent to violence.

[prtndr]

Money Quote: "The strategy was supposed to lead ATF officials to drug cartel leaders, but agents admitted they never followed the weapons to see where they went.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_...-neighborhoods

And the ATF, continuing to make this worse, is trying to fire the guy who blew the whistle:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...whistleblower/

Tell me again how this is all a brilliant government policy to reduce crime.