White Privilege

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

"Let them eat cake!" says King Stumbler, the Clueless.

Not at all. Try this Old Tool. When the electricity was off in town, my old grandmother was better off tat the ranch because she had a wood burning stove and gas lanterns and a spring for cooling things.

Such is the same with most the tribes you are describing except all their resources are being taken by others and used as political tools.

Absolute exploitation isn't the same kind of poverty I agree.

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Can you answer the question I put to baller16 - In today's world, are the poorest of our poor better off or worse off than the average citizen of the Dem Rep of Congo? I know you wont answer this question, but it's fun for me to put it out there anywho.

Oh much better off and again your point would be what? That we should join them? That yes there are privileges for the dominate classes. Yes there's prejudice and discrimination here. But you have no legitimate complaint nor should we address it because look how much better you have it than residents of the Congo. Gecause if that's your point I'd say its a right damn dumb Old Tool.

And its actually you telling us to shut up because we are eating cake compared to people in the Congo.

Now you talk about condescending because why? One time you actually met the poverty guide lines for a brief time in your life? Whoa, man that must have been tough/.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Here, let me lay it out for you . . . according to standards established here in the USA, I was very poor (significantly below the official poverty line) for a little over 6 years of my life, during a time I was supporting a wife and two children. I never once classified myself that way, and believed I would eventually make my way out of that circumstance. I have. I make no apologies for doing so.

And are you confident the same things would have been true if you had been born black?

PS What graduate school were you in?

[baller16]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Nice - trying to tap dance your way out of your previous position I think you said that my comparison of poverty in the US to poverty in other places in the world was a "cop out", right? What a putz, geeeeez.

You want to play picture games, OK - would you rather live in one of the places you posted pics of, or would you rather live here:

The only one playing games is you. You bring up the third world because you don't want to admit that you don't know shit about real poverty. Therefore, if you don't.. then nobody does!

How dare you make light of what people in your own country go through. You don't have a fucking clue what it's like to live in neighborhoods like that. Poverty is poverty, dipshit. It's in different forms between those neighborhoods and the third world but it's poverty nonetheless. You think somebody living in a home that's worth $5,000 has a fucking shot at college or a good life? You don't know anything.

By the way, living below the official poverty line and being actually poor are two very different things. I know many, many people who live below the official poverty line who aren't poor because they live around here instead of in a more expensive area, like the West Coast. That's nothing around here. The poverty line goes up but wages don't, therefore more people are considered poor.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Oh much better off and again your point would be what? That we should join them?

Again with the silly rhetorical questions I'm not surprised you're missing the point . . .

Originally Posted by stumbler

But you have no legitimate complaint nor should we address it because look how much better you have it than residents of the Congo. Gecause if that's your point I'd say its a right damn dumb Old Tool.

Nope Still way off (although I suspect you'd like that to be my point because it would make it much easier to refute) - let's see if you get closer on the next try . . .

Originally Posted by stumbler

And its actually you telling us to shut up because we are eating cake compared to people in the Congo.

That's three for three with the whiffs - if this were baseball, you'd be on your way to the bench! I'll give you another crack at it . . .

Originally Posted by stumbler

Now you talk about condescending because why? One time you actually met the poverty guide lines for a brief time in your life? Whoa, man that must have been tough/.

Ha! Now this is priceless. First you want to scold me for not respecting poverty in the US, then you mock the very thing I experienced in my life. Your irritable drive to 'win' the argument has made you a hypocrite! Perfect.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by stumbler

And are you confident the same things would have been true if you had been born black?

PS What graduate school were you in?

According to studies that have been done on the subject, as a black man in poverty here in the US, I would have been much more likely to believe that I deserved my poverty, and that I was destined to remain in that state for the duration of my life - barring some kind of lucky break along the way. This is an indicator of how institutionalized racism is in the US.

I spent zero time in any kind of graduate school - in fact, I possess no college degree whatsoever.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Ha! Now this is priceless. First you want to scold me for not respecting poverty in the US, then you mock the very thing I experienced in my life. Your irritable drive to 'win' the argument has made you a hypocrite! Perfect.

But was your "six years of meeting poverty guidelines" the same thing as being born and raised poor and black? Are you claiming you have experienced the same thing? You can't can you? Because I point out someone I don't think understands poverty and we've had this whole discussion saying I can't know poverty because I haven't experienced the same thing poor people in the Congo experience.

And not allowing you to belittle the argument is not the same thing as trying to win the argument which is long since ignored and lost clear back when you conceded there is such a thing as privilege in this nation and most all others.

Its all hair splitting and posturing for many posts now.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by baller16

The only one playing games is you. You bring up the third world because you don't want to admit that you don't know shit about real poverty. Therefore, if you don't.. then nobody does!

Wow - you're as good at getting the point as stumbler today . . .

Originally Posted by baller16

How dare you make light of what people in your own country go through. You don't have a fucking clue what it's like to live in neighborhoods like that. Poverty is poverty, dipshit. It's in different forms between those neighborhoods and the third world but it's poverty nonetheless. You think somebody living in a home that's worth $5,000 has a fucking shot at college or a good life? You don't know anything.

You really, really need this rant to be true, don't you? The idea that someone who disagrees with you has experienced the very things you think you represent must eat away at you like sulphuric acid on your ego. I think someone who is living in a house worth $5,000 is better off than someone who has never lived in a house at all. It's really quite a simple point.

Originally Posted by baller16

By the way, living below the official poverty line and being actually poor are two very different things. I know many, many people who live below the official poverty line who aren't poor because they live around here instead of in a more expensive area, like the West Coast. That's nothing around here. The poverty line goes up but wages don't, therefore more people are considered poor.

Oh boy - now I have to hear about how the standards established for defining poverty are all wrong, and the baller16 method is the only legitimate way. This makes you not only as clueless as you accuse others of being, but dreadfully arrogant. Here's some quick learnin' for ya, silly - the poverty line is a national measurement - meaning that being below it in an expensive area is more difficult than being below it in a depressed area Wow. Go back to school, seriously.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by stumbler

But was your "six years of meeting poverty guidelines" the same thing as being born and raised poor and black? Are you claiming you have experienced the same thing? You can't can you? Because I point out someone I don't think understands poverty and we've had this whole discussion saying I can't know poverty because I haven't experienced the same thing poor people in the Congo experience.

And not allowing you to belittle the argument is not the same thing as trying to win the argument which is long since ignored and lost clear back when you conceded there is such a thing as privilege in this nation and most all others.

Its all hair splitting and posturing for many posts now.

Say what? When did I claim that being well below (not meeting) the poverty line was equal to being poor and black? Now you're just making shit up! Logically, since I am caucasian, it would be impossible for me to experience being black regardless of my economic status - what is up with all the ridiculous rhetoric tonight - are you on painkillers right now?

My point - all along - has been this . . . poverty, as defined here in the US, is still a privileged form of "poverty" compared to other places in the world. It is an undisputed fact that if you own anything at all beyond the clothes on your back . . . a cell phone of any kind, a TV or radio, if you have dollars in your pocket, then you are more wealthy than over 90% of the world's population. Also, you have access to support and resources that other poor people on this earth would consider luxuries. If you disagree with these facts, then you're right - I think you have no clue about poverty whatsoever.

it's that simple

[tim929]

Originally Posted by Old Tool In today's world, are the poorest of our poor better off or worse off than the average citizen of the Dem Rep of Congo?

Im not sure this question is relevant. Sure, the poor in the U.S. are technically better off. But does that make their lives great? Considering also that certain levels of poverty in the U.S. are illegal, it is incumbent upon the poor and society to provide the means to maintain a level of poverty that is above that line.

If we sent U.S. police forces and CPS and the court system into the DRC, two thirds of the adult population would be in jail for child neglect and child endangerment and 90% of the children under the age of 18 would be in foster care within a week.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by stumbler

One time you actually met the poverty guide lines for a brief time in your life? Whoa, man that must have been tough/.

Oh, and thanks for the apology for disparaging my own experience with living in shitty conditions, having to decide whether to eat or go to the coin laundry on certain days, and not knowing if my kids were going to have clothes to wear by their next birthdays . . . you're a real humanitarian, stumbler

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by tim929

Im not sure this question is relevant. Sure, the poor in the U.S. are technically better off. But does that make their lives great? Considering also that certain levels of poverty in the U.S. are illegal, it is incumbent upon the poor and society to provide the means to maintain a level of poverty that is above that line.

If we sent U.S. police forces and CPS and the court system into the DRC, two thirds of the adult population would be in jail for child neglect and child endangerment and 90% of the children under the age of 18 would be in foster care within a week.

You too? Where did I say their lives were great? I have suggested that there are levels of poverty that go much, much further down the scale than what we experience in the US . . . please don't add another false dichotomy argument to this mess, eh?

. . . your highlighted part makes little sense to me - want to restate it?

[tim929]

To clarify, society provides a "safety net" in the form of welfare, food stamps, section eight housing etc. to prevent the mass arrests that would result if these things were not available in this country. In addition it is the responsability of the poor to avail themselves of these handouts in order to stay out of jail and keep custody of their children. Without those safety nets and people putting effort into getting those handouts, there would be a great many more children in foster care and a great many more people in prison.

In other places, the level of poverty that we would consider a crime is in their case considered normal.

[Old Tool]

Originally Posted by tim929

To clarify, society provides a "safety net" in the form of welfare, food stamps, section eight housing etc. to prevent the mass arrests that would result if these things were not available in this country. In addition it is the responsability of the poor to avail themselves of these handouts in order to stay out of jail and keep custody of their children. Without those safety nets and people putting effort into getting those handouts, there would be a great many more children in foster care and a great many more people in prison.

In other places, the level of poverty that we would consider a crime is in their case considered normal.

Ah, gotcha - OK. I'm not sure any human would consider what's going on in those countries "normal" - but the residents of those places do manage to blunt their psyches against the onslaught somehow. The safety net in place here makes the experience of poverty in the US less psychologically and physiologically distressing than poverty in much poorer nations - wouldn't you agree? I think if we compared rates for theft, rape, murder, infant mortality and life expectancy, the answer would be clear . . . but I don't think you'd be able to convince stumbler or baller16 that there is a clear and distinct difference - and that difference matters irregardless of our desire to separate ourselves and measure only against the 1%ers in the US.

[McDick]

The problems with those ghetto neighborhoods that baller16 thinks are so great go a lot further than just a lack of money.

Many of the problems have to do with the shitheads who live there. The filth, the violence, the racism, the gangs, the drug and alcohol addiction. These are not financial problems, they're behavior problems. The shitheads who live there could bate many of these problems by behaving in a civilized manner...and they don't need a government grant to do it either. They could start by picking up the trash in their front yard but they won't. It's easier to complain about the filth they live in than clean it up.

They'll walk around with a chip on their shoulder ready to fight anyone who looks at them wrong, then complain about what a violent, hard neighborhood they live in. (Baller brags about it, but most residents complain about it.)

Most of their problems are created by themselves and blamed on everyone else. Nothing anyone has tried to do for these nieghborhoods has ever worked except locking lots of people up.

The simplest solution is to move to a neighborhood where people treat each other with decency. The kind of place Baller calls fake and soft.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Wow - you're as good at getting the point as stumbler today . . .



You really, really need this rant to be true, don't you? The idea that someone who disagrees with you has experienced the very things you think you represent must eat away at you like sulphuric acid on your ego. I think someone who is living in a house worth $5,000 is better off than someone who has never lived in a house at all. It's really quite a simple point.



Oh boy - now I have to hear about how the standards established for defining poverty are all wrong, and the baller16 method is the only legitimate way. This makes you not only as clueless as you accuse others of being, but dreadfully arrogant. Here's some quick learnin' for ya, silly - the poverty line is a national measurement - meaning that being below it in an expensive area is more difficult than being below it in a depressed area Wow. Go back to school, seriously.

You're a clueless idiot.

Get a clue, seriously. Stop speaking out of your ass, seriously.

And no, you've never actually been poor. You don't have neighborhoods like that out there. We both know it.

Originally Posted by McDick

The problems with those ghetto neighborhoods that baller16 thinks are so great go a lot further than just a lack of money.

Many of the problems have to do with the shitheads who live there. The filth, the violence, the racism, the gangs, the drug and alcohol addiction. These are not financial problems, they're behavior problems. The shitheads who live there could bate many of these problems by behaving in a civilized manner...and they don't need a government grant to do it either. They could start by picking up the trash in their front yard but they won't. It's easier to complain about the filth they live in than clean it up.

They'll walk around with a chip on their shoulder ready to fight anyone who looks at them wrong, then complain about what a violent, hard neighborhood they live in. (Baller brags about it, but most residents complain about it.)

Most of their problems are created by themselves and blamed on everyone else. Nothing anyone has tried to do for these nieghborhoods has ever worked except locking lots of people up.

The simplest solution is to move to a neighborhood where people treat each other with decency. The kind of place Baller calls fake and soft.

Keep your mouth shut about shit you know nothing about. Those places are what they are because YOU TOOK THEIR FUCKING JOBS. Not only that, people like you use those places for your own vices, to get your drugs, to buy a hooker, or whatever the fuck else. You don't know shit about the people living there or the lives they live. You think because you fucking listen to music or watch TV or watch movies that you know. You don't know a damn thing. The good people in those neighborhoods are better than you could ever be, and you and everybody like you would crumble and fall apart in their situations and certainly wouldn't be the honest people that many of them are.

I don't brag about shit, you fake ass fuck.

You know why we call your suburbs fake and soft? Because you aren't "decent". You're polite to people and that's it. That's a completely different thing. You isolate yourselves in your little ivory towers, in your pathetic lives of nothing that you need to fill with so many things just to not get incredibly depressed, and if anybody ever needed any real help, you wouldn't do a fucking thing. Your suburbs exist solely to give kids a better chance at life, though these days they're used moreso to give "parents" the dream lives they want and think they deserve, so they don't have to raise their kids.

How dare you judge them, you sheltered little fuck. You ain't a dick, by the way. You just wish you were, just like every other suburban douche.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by McDick

The problems with those ghetto neighborhoods that baller16 thinks are so great go a lot further than just a lack of money.

Many of the problems have to do with the shitheads who live there. The filth, the violence, the racism, the gangs, the drug and alcohol addiction. These are not financial problems, they're behavior problems. The shitheads who live there could bate many of these problems by behaving in a civilized manner...and they don't need a government grant to do it either. They could start by picking up the trash in their front yard but they won't. It's easier to complain about the filth they live in than clean it up.

They'll walk around with a chip on their shoulder ready to fight anyone who looks at them wrong, then complain about what a violent, hard neighborhood they live in. (Baller brags about it, but most residents complain about it.)

Most of their problems are created by themselves and blamed on everyone else. Nothing anyone has tried to do for these nieghborhoods has ever worked except locking lots of people up.

The simplest solution is to move to a neighborhood where people treat each other with decency. The kind of place Baller calls fake and soft.

I think the attitude that you're talking about may be a defense mechanism for some from growing up in such a neighborhood, but I agree that if they want change their lives within the community is the best place to start making that change. Certainly growing up in such a neighborhood means being underprivileged. If you can't change the neighborhood that does mean moving somewhere else- even if it means being poor somewhere else, I imagine they'd be better off.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

I think the attitude that you're talking about may be a defense mechanism for some from growing up in such a neighborhood, but I agree that if they want change their lives within the community is the best place to start making that change. Certainly growing up in such a neighborhood means being underprivileged. If you can't change the neighborhood that does mean moving somewhere else- even if it means being poor somewhere else, I imagine they'd be better off.

You too need to stop talking like you know something. I don't care what kind of "poverty" you've experienced. You know nothing about living in neighborhoods like those.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

You too need to stop talking like you know something. I don't care what kind of "poverty" you've experienced. You know nothing about living in neighborhoods like those.

I'm perfectly at right to have my own opinion. Attacking me or others for having one, ignorantly placed or not (and that is not me agreeing with you), is childish and not how a 'journalist' is trained.

There are different perspectives on all topics. This is mine, there was McDicks, and if it is frustrating for you it's all right, you don't need to comment. I promise it won't change anything.

[tim929]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Ah, gotcha - OK. I'm not sure any human would consider what's going on in those countries "normal" - but the residents of those places do manage to blunt their psyches against the onslaught somehow. The safety net in place here makes the experience of poverty in the US less psychologically and physiologically distressing than poverty in much poorer nations - wouldn't you agree? I think if we compared rates for theft, rape, murder, infant mortality and life expectancy, the answer would be clear . . . but I don't think you'd be able to convince stumbler or baller16 that there is a clear and distinct difference - and that difference matters irregardless of our desire to separate ourselves and measure only against the 1%ers in the US.

Im not sure if its less distressing or not. In some respects it is, since the odds of mortality tend to be somewhat lower in the U.S. versus many other places, but the level of degredation and humiliation that people in this country are subjected to is pretty severe. On the up side, we spend less time here dodging AK-47 fire and trying to avoid land mines left over from wars past. Some countries however, while having a degree of poverty that would curl the toes of many American poor, have managed to normalize that level of poverty and have simply come to expect it. I have friends in Tanzania who used to be shocked at the level of poverty that they were seeing but over the years have discovered that in spite of not having running water or electricity, and having to walk everywhere, sometimes for many miles a day people tend to be relatively happy. While they dont enjoy many of the perks that we do like TV, bus systems, food banks, free clinics and so forth, they are still quite content with their relatively modest living conditions and somehow manage to squeak out a fairly decent existance.

There are struggles to be sure, but the expectations that come with their lives are considerably lower than what we have here. They have never seen things like king size beds, built in lighting, indoor plumbing, automatic garage doors, supermarkets full of food or lines of expensive cars waiting at a traffic intersection. They sleep on mats in huts made of discarded plywood and tin and cook over open fires. The clothes they wear were donated from the throwaways from the U.S. and Europe and they have never worn shoes. But in their eyes, life isnt bad and they actualy have a pretty positive outlook on things as a whole. Part of that being that they never have to worry about being thrown out on the streets for failing to pay their rent, or losing custody of their children for lack of proper sanitation or housing. They also dont know anything else. Having never had a rich person to compair their lives too they dont have any practical idea that there is anything else in the world. They have heard of places where the houses are huge and everybody has a car, but having never seen it, they dont realy have the realization in their minds.

Here on the other hand, a poor person is confronted daily with everything they dont have and will probably never achieve. They see the $125k Ferarri drive past on the freeway while they ride the bus to the food bank and its a constant slap in the face. They have seen the TV shows where people travel and have huge homes and expensive clothes and that creates a culture of envy and bitterness and the results speak for themselves.

[DS1980]

baller is the only person who knows real poverty you shit heads. Leave him alone. If it weren't for his parents he would be out living on the streets with no computer or internet.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

I'm perfectly at right to have my own opinion. Attacking me or others for having one, ignorantly placed or not (and that is not me agreeing with you), is childish and not how a 'journalist' is trained.

There are different perspectives on all topics. This is mine, there was McDicks, and if it is frustrating for you it's all right, you don't need to comment. I promise it won't change anything.

You think I give a fuck what you have to say?

It's not about your damn perspective. You don't have a right to one. You may not like that but I personally don't care. You don't live it. You never have. You can't imagine it, at all. Don't try to talk about any "causes" or "solutions" because the causes and solutions have been obvious ever since the problems started.

Why is it that so many people are unable to respect boundaries these days? Is it because you grew up in a way that allowed you not to have to? Seriously, once upon a time people who were from better opportunities isolated themselves from this shit because they knew they weren't a part of it and didn't want to be or to think about it. Instead, their kids/grandkids want to talk like they know about it when they've never even seen it.

Originally Posted by tim929

Im not sure if its less distressing or not. In some respects it is, since the odds of mortality tend to be somewhat lower in the U.S. versus many other places, but the level of degredation and humiliation that people in this country are subjected to is pretty severe. On the up side, we spend less time here dodging AK-47 fire and trying to avoid land mines left over from wars past. Some countries however, while having a degree of poverty that would curl the toes of many American poor, have managed to normalize that level of poverty and have simply come to expect it. I have friends in Tanzania who used to be shocked at the level of poverty that they were seeing but over the years have discovered that in spite of not having running water or electricity, and having to walk everywhere, sometimes for many miles a day people tend to be relatively happy. While they dont enjoy many of the perks that we do like TV, bus systems, food banks, free clinics and so forth, they are still quite content with their relatively modest living conditions and somehow manage to squeak out a fairly decent existance.

There are struggles to be sure, but the expectations that come with their lives are considerably lower than what we have here. They have never seen things like king size beds, built in lighting, indoor plumbing, automatic garage doors, supermarkets full of food or lines of expensive cars waiting at a traffic intersection. They sleep on mats in huts made of discarded plywood and tin and cook over open fires. The clothes they wear were donated from the throwaways from the U.S. and Europe and they have never worn shoes. But in their eyes, life isnt bad and they actualy have a pretty positive outlook on things as a whole. Part of that being that they never have to worry about being thrown out on the streets for failing to pay their rent, or losing custody of their children for lack of proper sanitation or housing. They also dont know anything else. Having never had a rich person to compair their lives too they dont have any practical idea that there is anything else in the world. They have heard of places where the houses are huge and everybody has a car, but having never seen it, they dont realy have the realization in their minds.

Here on the other hand, a poor person is confronted daily with everything they dont have and will probably never achieve. They see the $125k Ferarri drive past on the freeway while they ride the bus to the food bank and its a constant slap in the face. They have seen the TV shows where people travel and have huge homes and expensive clothes and that creates a culture of envy and bitterness and the results speak for themselves.

Truth.

Plus, the fact is that people living in nature don't need running water. They just need clean water. They can hunt for their own food. They don't need many of the things people in concrete ghettos do.

They're in awful situations, yes, but they're not physically boxed in except by armed forces. It's different in places like South America and even other African places, where all of the stuff in US ghettos exists and on top of that they have to deal with things on a whole other level that we don't. Also, again, I'd like to point out that the reason these places exist in the way that they do is because of privileged white people, so privileged white people should either fix things or shut the fuck up about them.

Either way, neither of those harder experiences makes living in a true US ghetto any small thing compared to anything. Those who know nothing about it, like Old Tool, are always the first to bring up the third world because they can't admit that it's got nothing to do with race or skin color and everything to do with what opportunities you come from and how they were gotten.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by DS1980

baller is the only person who knows real poverty you shit heads. Leave him alone. If it weren't for his parents he would be out living on the streets with no computer or internet.

Actually, unlike you fake fucks, I've never claimed to know real poverty.

That's the difference between us. I respect boundaries.

Also, who are you to say anything, you sheltered, spoiled ass suburbanite fuck?

[DS1980]

Originally Posted by baller16

Actually, unlike you fake fucks, I've never claimed to know real poverty.

That's the difference between us. I respect boundaries.

Also, who are you to say anything, you sheltered, spoiled ass suburbanite fuck?

I never claimed to know what its like to be poor. I have repeatedly said my upbringing was privileged, and that I am proud of it. I don't know how many other ways I could put it to you.

[virginal vixen]

Originally Posted by ejls

And insulted those of us who were part of the conversation. That's what's harsh.

Well please forgive me. I did not mean too come off as hash to the others, and you. I take back what I said.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

You think I give a fuck what you have to say?

It's not about your damn perspective. You don't have a right to one. You may not like that but I personally don't care. You don't live it. You never have. You can't imagine it, at all. Don't try to talk about any "causes" or "solutions" because the causes and solutions have been obvious ever since the problems started.

Why is it that so many people are unable to respect boundaries these days? Is it because you grew up in a way that allowed you not to have to? Seriously, once upon a time people who were from better opportunities isolated themselves from this shit because they knew they weren't a part of it and didn't want to be or to think about it. Instead, their kids/grandkids want to talk like they know about it when they've never even seen it.

You obviously do care what I say or you wouldn't respond, or tell me to stop talking.

I'm not of the belief that ignoring the way people are living is at all right. I'm not of the belief of pretending it doesn't exist so I can live my life through rose colored glasses. I don't see that as 'respecting boundaries', I see that as heartlessly ignoring the underprivileged and treating them as unworthy to join human society. I have quite a bit more respect for individuals than that.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by DS1980

I never claimed to know what its like to be poor. I have repeatedly said my upbringing was privileged, and that I am proud of it. I don't know how many other ways I could put it to you.

Yet you continue to not respect boundaries.

You continue to act like you're rich because you're "stronger" than those "damn poor people".

You continue to try to talk shit about me, when your privileged ass doesn't know a fucking thing about anything. Who the fuck are you to say anything about me? You fucking hypocrite.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

You obviously do care what I say or you wouldn't respond, or tell me to stop talking.

I'm not of the belief that ignoring the way people are living is at all right. I'm not of the belief of pretending it doesn't exist so I can live my life through rose colored glasses. I don't see that as 'respecting boundaries', I see that as heartlessly ignoring the underprivileged.

No, I care about the fact that you think you have a right to comment on it in the first place.

I'm not of the belief that speaking your fucking opinions about those things instead of actually seeking to understand them is at all right.

What have you done for the underprivileged, Mother Theresa? You think because you make comments that that means something? Because you maybe volunteer at a soup kitchen?

Do you have any idea how easily those problems could be dealt with and lessened? Yet when it comes time to actually do something, everybody stops talking all of the sudden, because all they ever want to do is talk.

If you have respect for them, then respect the fact that you don't know, and either seek to understand it or stop talking.

[DS1980]

Originally Posted by baller16

Yet you continue to not respect boundaries.

You continue to act like you're rich because you're "stronger" than those "damn poor people".

You continue to try to talk shit about me, when your privileged ass doesn't know a fucking thing about anything. Who the fuck are you to say anything about me? You fucking hypocrite.

You started with

Originally Posted by baller16

OUR SKIN COLOR MAY BE THE SAME, BUT WE ARE NOT. YOU ARE NOT ON MY LEVEL, YOU COMFORTABLE ASS, SUBURBAN ASS, SPOILED LITTLE SHITS. YOU DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING ABOUT STRUGGLE, ABOUT HARD WORK, ABOUT REAL SHIT. YOU ARE FUCKING FAKE PEOPLE LIVING IN A FUCKING FAKE WORLD, AND I AM SICK AND TIRED OF CARRYING THE BURDEN OF YOUR ACTIONS AND BULLSHIT JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE THE SAME SKIN COLOR.


FUCK YOU ALL AND YOUR BULLSHIT. LASTLY, FUCK THE SUBURBAN ASS PLACES THAT YOU COME FROM, YOU FUCKING FRAUDS.

.

How is that respecting boundaries? Here you are talking shit about suburban areas, casting a big wide brush over everyone who lives in them, insulting people you have never met.

You are the one who makes out that it is impossible to know anything without living it yourself. Therefore it is impossible for you to know anything about these people, and these areas. So why don't you take a page out of your own book, and stop talking shit about something you know nothing about.

[virginal vixen]

Originally Posted by suri

Yeah .. Vixen you started this thread .. are you planning on posting your opinion?

As a black woman that comes from a very comfortable background in my opinion, you really probably don't want to hear my opinion. I But I will say this: White Privilege don't have necessarily mean coming from a certain type of financial background, it could mean other things as well. The way society looks at you, how they judge you from first glance, how most white people tend to get away with things in society, or in public while others can't, how others don't stereotype most white people.

Go to thisiswhiteprivilege.tumblr.com to see what I am talking about.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by DS1980

You started with





How is that respecting boundaries? Here you are talking shit about suburban areas, casting a big wide brush over everyone who lives in them, insulting people you have never met.

You are the one who makes out that it is impossible to know anything without living it yourself. Therefore it is impossible for you to know anything about these people, and these areas. So why don't you take a page out of your own book, and stop talking shit about something you know nothing about.

How is it painting a broad brush? It's the fucking truth! Not my fault you're so damn generic and alike. You know how I know it? Because I live with you, in your world. I'm not an outsider to it.

Nope, I make it out that it's impossible to know anything when you're an outsider to it and have no way to be reminded of it every day. That's not the case with me, nor has it ever been. That's the difference. You all come from places nowhere near any of this, know nobody from any of it, have no reminders of it whatsoever, yet you talk about it like you know!

[x__orion]

Originally Posted by baller16

Actually, unlike you fake fucks, I've never claimed to know real poverty.

That's the difference between us. I respect boundaries.

Also, who are you to say anything, you sheltered, spoiled ass suburbanite fuck?

I can't find the posts - and not for lack of trying - but you once claimed that the house you lived in was in such disrepair that the walls crawled with cockroaches, and that you exhibited the same 'swollen stomach' signs of malnutrition as seen on 3rd world children.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

No, I care about the fact that you think you have a right to comment on it in the first place.

I'm not of the belief that speaking your fucking opinions about those things instead of actually seeking to understand them is at all right.

What have you done for the underprivileged, Mother Theresa? You think because you make comments that that means something? Because you maybe volunteer at a soup kitchen?

Do you have any idea how easily those problems could be dealt with and lessened? Yet when it comes time to actually do something, everybody stops talking all of the sudden, because all they ever want to do is talk.

If you have respect for them, then respect the fact that you don't know, and either seek to understand it or stop talking.

By talking about it I am seeking to understand. I have not prevented you from educating me about anything, solutions or otherwise. You've yet to bring forth such easy solutions. Speech tends to be the way people communicate ideas, facts, etc.

Aren't you trying to be sweet? Thanks, but I'm not Mother Theresa and neither shall I try to defend what I do or do not do for the underprivileged. I have not the means to do much; I do what I can however. Regardless you shall continue to have your mind on how useless this is in the grand scheme of things, and I could even agree, but as I said I do not see what else I can do when not making less than 5K a year. Again, I'd enjoy knowing this easy solution you have in mind.

I guess we're at an impasse since we're at opposite sides of the fence on what I can or cannot talk about. Again, glad to have your input on the underprivileged and privileged and how they should coexist.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

How is it painting a broad brush? It's the fucking truth! Not my fault you're so damn generic and alike. You know how I know it? Because I live with you, in your world. I'm not an outsider to it.

Nope, I make it out that it's impossible to know anything when you're an outsider to it and have no way to be reminded of it every day. That's not the case with me, nor has it ever been. That's the difference. You all come from places nowhere near any of this, know nobody from any of it, have no reminders of it whatsoever, yet you talk about it like you know!

Oh please baller.

You just like making the biggest ass of yourself.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by virginal vixen

As a black woman that comes from a very comfortable background in my opinion, you really probably don't want to hear my opinion. I But I will say this: White Privilege don't have necessarily mean coming from a certain type of financial background, it could mean other things as well. The way society looks at you, how they judge you from first glance, how most white people tend to get away with things in society, or in public while others can't, how others don't stereotype most white people.

Go to thisiswhiteprivilege.tumblr.com to see what I am talking about.

Nonsense, of all opinions yours is probably more of an eye opener as you've gone through experiences I haven't as a black woman.

Edit: I do think there exists privileges for all different sorts of races though. There was that random search that was allowed somewhere? I don't quite remember so I know that's not helpful but I don't want to take the time to look it up since I'm editing a post, but they searched more minorities than whites when the ratio didn't add up, so there was an exceptional amount of racism occurring through stereotyping. There wasn't even many arrests made from that stop and search anyone who looked suspicious. That's definitely an example of white privilege, but there are examples of other race privileges that I mentioned in this thread.

Hmm... so perhaps just by being a white female under this different outlook of white privilege, yes I have some privileges. Financially I don't see it, but in how I'm racially profiled I do.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by virginal vixen

As a black woman that comes from a very comfortable background in my opinion, you really probably don't want to hear my opinion. I But I will say this: White Privilege don't have necessarily mean coming from a certain type of financial background, it could mean other things as well. The way society looks at you, how they judge you from first glance, how most white people tend to get away with things in society, or in public while others can't, how others don't stereotype most white people.

Go to thisiswhiteprivilege.tumblr.com to see what I am talking about.

So white people who come up in the same situations as black people yet get called "wiggers" or people trying to "act black" for living a culture that didn't even start with black people are privileged? People who don't get any kind of minority scholarships despite the fact that they come from the same situations? People who get stereotyped by privileged white people and by black people and every other race at the same time?

Do people deny what your people went through? No. In fact, everybody with white skin gets blamed for it, even people who were dirt poor and whose families have lived in that shit for generations. Those people never have the truth of what happened to them told. Instead, they get lumped in with the very people who did it to them!

I'm fucking sick and tired of this "white people" bullshit. People of all races are a part of the underprivileged working class, just like people of all races are a part of the privileged class. Fuck race and all of that bullshit.

I'm not trying to act like people who aren't white don't have it worse just based on their skin color because we all know they do, but I'm sick and tired of people thinking the opposite of anybody with white skin. If you don't come from the suburbs, you get stereotyped.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by x__orion

I can't find the posts - and not for lack of trying - but you once claimed that the house you lived in was in such disrepair that the walls crawled with cockroaches, and that you exhibited the same 'swollen stomach' signs of malnutrition as seen on 3rd world children.

The first one I never claimed. I've never lived in a house that was full of cockroaches or in disrepair, nor would I ever claim to. You won't ever find such a post from me.

The second one is true. I had better opportunities than most around here, not better parents.

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

By talking about it I am seeking to understand. I have not prevented you from educating me about anything, solutions or otherwise. You've yet to bring forth such easy solutions. Speech tends to be the way people communicate ideas, facts, etc.

Aren't you trying to be sweet? Thanks, but I'm not Mother Theresa and neither shall I try to defend what I do or do not do for the underprivileged. I have not the means to do much; I do what I can however. Regardless you shall continue to have your mind on how useless this is in the grand scheme of things, and I could even agree, but as I said I do not see what else I can do when not making less than 5K a year. Again, I'd enjoy knowing this easy solution you have in mind.

I guess we're at an impasse since we're at opposite sides of the fence on what I can or cannot talk about. Again, glad to have your input on the underprivileged and privileged and how they should coexist.

Why the fuck should we have to educate you? You have no right to expect anybody to educate you on it. Who are you that anybody needs to educate you about it?

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

Oh please baller.

You just like making the biggest ass of yourself.

You're doing a great job of that yourself.

Please, tell me all about that California "poverty".

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

Why the fuck should we have to educate you? You have no right to expect anybody to educate you on it. Who are you that anybody needs to educate you about it?

You're doing a great job of that yourself.

Please, tell me all about that California "poverty".

Yes, yes... you're very loud and rather like talking to a brick wall. You've made that point very clear.

[baller16]

Here's the point I've been making throughout this entire thread: It's not about "white people". Too many white people and non-white people use that as an excuse. White people use it as an excuse to make it out like it's everybody as a whole, not they themselves or others like them. If they can spread the blame, they won't have to admit how large their part in it is or where it really comes from. They say shit like "white people suck". No, privileged, deluded, spoiled, entitled white people who don't respect boundaries or know how to be decent people suck. Every single stereotypical "white" thing is based on people who are privileged, not their skin color.

Having white skin doesn't make you privileged, or at least, there is no universal privilege for people with white skin. Privilege is now and always has been based on class and socioeconomic status, and it only became about race because Europeans "colonized" people with different skin colors than theirs, as well as people with the same skin color as theirs (something that constantly gets covered up). People make it about race who come from those privileged backgrounds so that nobody ever sees the truth about things. People make it about race who come from disadvantaged backgrounds because that's what was forced on them, that they were "inferior" because of the color of their skin.

Either way, both sides of it aren't the full truth. By the way, every time anybody on either side of it furthers the lies and bullshit, that person ensures that none of it will ever be fixed, for anybody. You ensure that you let the people who are actually responsible for it off the hook, just like people have for hundreds of years now.

[virginal vixen]

Originally Posted by baller16

So white people who come up in the same situations as black people yet get called "wiggers" or people trying to "act black" for living a culture that didn't even start with black people are privileged? People who don't get any kind of minority scholarships despite the fact that they come from the same situations? People who get stereotyped by privileged white people and by black people and every other race at the same time?

Do people deny what your people went through? No. In fact, everybody with white skin gets blamed for it, even people who were dirt poor and whose families have lived in that shit for generations. Those people never have the truth of what happened to them told. Instead, they get lumped in with the very people who did it to them!

I'm fucking sick and tired of this "white people" bullshit. People of all races are a part of the underprivileged working class, just like people of all races are a part of the privileged class. Fuck race and all of that bullshit.

I'm not trying to act like people who aren't white don't have it worse just based on their skin color because we all know they do, but I'm sick and tired of people thinking the opposite of anybody with white skin. If you don't come from the suburbs, you get stereotyped.

Excuse me, if you read my post you would have known that I did not say anything or was not about say shit. And you just missed my entire post did you?

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by virginal vixen

Excuse me, if you read my post you would have known that I did not say anything or was not about say shit. And you just missed my entire post did you?

Yeah excuse him, he tends to do that. =\

[ejls]

Not addressed to anyone in particular:

Everyone has a right to speak on whatever subject they wish. Not everyone will agree with you, which is fine because it would be awfully boring if they did. Can they tell you that you don't know what you're talking about or that you've never seen something? Oh yeah, they can. But do they really know that about you? No, they don't. Just consider the source.

As for stereotyping - everyone is stereotyped. If a young man is tall and thin it is assumed he plays basket ball. If a girl is blonde with big boobs, she's probably an airhead. If a person is fat, well hell, they eat enough to feed everyone in a ghetto. If a guy dresses nicely and is clean and well-groomed, well then we all know he is gay. If you live in NY, you live in the city and you're mean. Oh yeah, and every woman golfer is a lesbian.

See, it's not just because of your color. It's human nature to look at someone and assume. Doesn't make it right - it just happens. Only you can define yourself. That should be all that's important.

[baller16]

Originally Posted by virginal vixen

Excuse me, if you read my post you would have known that I did not say anything or was not about say shit. And you just missed my entire post did you?

I didn't miss anything. You said that if you're white, you are privileged. You even posted a link about it.

Originally Posted by ejls

It's human nature to look at someone and assume.

That's wrong. It's not human nature.

It is an unnatural thing that derives from societies in which spoiled rich people get to judge everybody and act like their position in life is because they are better.

It may have evolved into much more than that, but that's where it comes from.

[SensualRobin]

Originally Posted by baller16

I didn't miss anything. You said that if you're white, you are privileged. You even posted a link about it.

That's wrong. It's not human nature.

It is an unnatural thing that derives from societies in which spoiled rich people get to judge everybody and act like their position in life is because they are better.

It may have evolved into much more than that, but that's where it comes from.

I was thinking that it was human nature to assume. Feel free to correct me, but the way the brain processes information it's a bit like a protective instinct to categorize your surroundings to know what can or can't hurt you, etc. You separate people and objects in your surroundings based on that information before you've even realized it based on past experiences.

Stereotypes may be positive, negative, or neutral. In the abstract, stereotyping is an adaptive function—we have a natural tendency to categorize the information around us to make sense of our environment. Just imagine how complicated life would be if we continually had to start from scratch to understand each new situation and each new person we encountered!
Read more here

[baller16]

Originally Posted by SensualRobin

I was thinking that it was human nature to assume. Feel free to correct me, but the way the brain processes information it's a bit like a protective instinct to categorize your surroundings to know what can or can't hurt you, etc. You separate people and objects in your surroundings based on that information before you've even realized it based on past experiences.

Nope.

That only happens in places where you need to do it, or more accurately, it has zero to do with assuming about or stereotyping people. Yet another non-biological thing that is made into a biological thing so people can use it as an excuse.

It's much easier than looking deep within and coming to the real conclusion about why one stereotypes people.

[ejls]

Originally Posted by baller16

That's wrong. It's not human nature.

It is an unnatural thing that derives from societies in which spoiled rich people get to judge everybody and act like their position in life is because they are better.

It may have evolved into much more than that, but that's where it comes from.

Baller, I never said humans started by assuming, but I think if we went back to cave man times and a large male was walking along, carrying a club, a smaller male would have assumed that he was a bully and should be afraid of him. He very well could have just been the club repair man making a delivery.

Stereotyping is today's human nature. Judgements aren't just made by the spoiled rich. Not at all. You can't tell me that a white person isn't judged by someone of another color, simply based on their looks. Everyone judges everyone. Some are just more accepting than others.

[AZRIEL]

[smcaaphd]

Originally Posted by tim929

Im not sure if its less distressing or not. In some respects it is, since the odds of mortality tend to be somewhat lower in the U.S. versus many other places, but the level of degredation and humiliation that people in this country are subjected to is pretty severe. On the up side, we spend less time here dodging AK-47 fire and trying to avoid land mines left over from wars past. Some countries however, while having a degree of poverty that would curl the toes of many American poor, have managed to normalize that level of poverty and have simply come to expect it. I have friends in Tanzania who used to be shocked at the level of poverty that they were seeing but over the years have discovered that in spite of not having running water or electricity, and having to walk everywhere, sometimes for many miles a day people tend to be relatively happy. While they dont enjoy many of the perks that we do like TV, bus systems, food banks, free clinics and so forth, they are still quite content with their relatively modest living conditions and somehow manage to squeak out a fairly decent existance.

There are struggles to be sure, but the expectations that come with their lives are considerably lower than what we have here. They have never seen things like king size beds, built in lighting, indoor plumbing, automatic garage doors, supermarkets full of food or lines of expensive cars waiting at a traffic intersection. They sleep on mats in huts made of discarded plywood and tin and cook over open fires. The clothes they wear were donated from the throwaways from the U.S. and Europe and they have never worn shoes. But in their eyes, life isnt bad and they actualy have a pretty positive outlook on things as a whole. Part of that being that they never have to worry about being thrown out on the streets for failing to pay their rent, or losing custody of their children for lack of proper sanitation or housing. They also dont know anything else. Having never had a rich person to compair their lives too they dont have any practical idea that there is anything else in the world. They have heard of places where the houses are huge and everybody has a car, but having never seen it, they dont realy have the realization in their minds.

Here on the other hand, a poor person is confronted daily with everything they dont have and will probably never achieve. They see the $125k Ferarri drive past on the freeway while they ride the bus to the food bank and its a constant slap in the face. They have seen the TV shows where people travel and have huge homes and expensive clothes and that creates a culture of envy and bitterness and the results speak for themselves.

I really wasn't going to post in this thread - but I am reading it avidly!!

However, I have to disagree with your opinion on what constitutes poverty in third world countries, and people's acceptance of it (I speak from the experience of having voluntary work with refugee and asylum seekers from the Congo, and other third-world countries).

Many were not happy with their 'lot in life'. They had no access to clean drinking water, surely one of the basic expectations to life in the 21st century? Those of us in Europe and the US who think nothing of turning on a tap and being able to drink the water that comes out without fear of cholera, typhoid, or any other water-borne diseases are among a very small percentage of people globally who have that luxury!! Even when we flush our toilets - the water that takes away the waste products is cleaner than the water people living in third world poverty drink!!

Further to that, when people in our privileged world experience flooding or water shortage, there is always a government-backed solution to provide and disperse water to the citizenry. People in drought-ridden places may have to walk for days at a time to access dirty water just to keep themselves and their families from dying of dehydration.

Then there's health care; while the child mortality rate in the US shockingly high compared to the likes of Europe (and, surprisingly Cuba - who have an excellent comparable health system), the overall health care provided is better than that available in the third world; not least because of the access to doctors and free clinics - in the UK and other places, we're even luckier because everyone has a right to health care free at point of delivery, and for those who do not work, even their prescriptions are free!!

If we take the case of Aids/HIV, in first world countries, it is possible to receive treatment/medication to alleviate the symptoms (and to postpone death) by years. However third world countries cannot afford the expensive medications needed for this. Although I'm unsure of the figures - and I'm notoriously far too lazy to go looking them up - there is a high comparable figure of death from HIV/Aids compared to western countries.

Food and hunger/starvation are two more points that I would use to argue against your post. While there are many charitable organisations who distribute food in third world countries, there are many people who go without daily and even weekly. They are malnourished, and thus more susceptible to disease.

Add to that the on-going internal wars within these countries, the fear of not knowing if your village is going to be invaded by soldiers from either side of the fighting, whether you're going to watch your parents get murdered or your children carted off to be forced to fight, and I'd say they would probably be feeling less than happy, even if they didn't know any other way of life!!

On the other hand, I have also spoken to people from Somalia; one of whom was from a fishing village on the coast. Somalia is, as you are probably aware, a failed state - no government at all. But people there had generators for electricity, and as they were from a coastal, fishing village, they had food.

Unfortunately, their village was raided and all inhabitants in the village at that time were killed. When the fishermen returned home, they saw what had happened and fled either over land or by water to neighbouring countries where they sought safety.

So, to summarise - if happiness is an acceptance of what life throws at us, then yes - people living in third world countries are happy. But other than that, I can't see parents being ecstatic when watching their children die off slowly one by one due to hunger or disease, or men being anything near pleased when they see their wives and daughters raped; or children being enthused about having to murder their parents for the 'privilege' of becoming child soldiers.

This post is, of course, out of context with the whole thread, which I see has descended into the usual chaos; but happy camping, campers!!

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Old Tool

Oh, and thanks for the apology for disparaging my own experience with living in shitty conditions, having to decide whether to eat or go to the coin laundry on certain days, and not knowing if my kids were going to have clothes to wear by their next birthdays . . . you're a real humanitarian, stumbler

Hey Old Tool you are the one who started this whole thing complaining I didn't know anything about proverty because I'd never lived as an explloited African in the Congo so I was just showing you how it feels there big guy.

And besides if you've got money for laundry or food you were ahead of me on most days.

But all that says is we still don't know what its like to be in those same circumstances with brown yellow red or black skins.

[x__orion]

No, I was poorer, damnit!

I'd stamp my foot but I'm too poor to afford feet (or a floor).

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by x__orion

No, I was poorer, damnit!

I'd stamp my foot but I'm too poor to afford feet (or a floor).

Actually I think in reality that's what you're doing right now Orion. I clearly tried to steer this back to the topic and pointed the irony of two white guys in this country talking about being poor.

And think you've always been able to afford more than floors and feet.