Eric Holder

[Capnip-Everdeen]

Do you think he will resign?

[richief]

What does he do, is he a bus driver?

[Capnip-Everdeen]

Originally Posted by richief

What does he do, is he a bus driver?

More or less.

[michael saint]

Is he related to Noddy ?

[stumbler]

No Eric Holder will not resign because he (nor the Justice Department) has done anything wrong let alone illegal. In fact Holder has been a very even handed attorney General and has demonstrated both high intelect and strong moral courage.

This is politics as usual. A GOP witch hunt against someone they fear. It goes clear back to Nixon.

[richief]

Originally Posted by stumbler

No Eric Holder will not resign because he (nor the Justice Department) has done anything wrong let alone illegal. In fact Holder has been a very even handed attorney General and has demonstrated both high intelect and strong moral courage.

This is politics as usual. A GOP witch hunt against someone they fear. It goes clear back to Nixon.

Nixon is co-ordinating this from beyond the grave?

[Capnip-Everdeen]

Was interesting that all republicans voted to hold him in contempt and all democrats voted not to.

[CS natureboy]

Originally Posted by Capnip-Everdeen

Was interesting that all republicans voted to hold him in contempt and all democrats voted not to.

That is because the Democrats are the party of liars, cheats and criminals.

They have no problem with lying and breaking the law.

[CS natureboy]

House panel backs contempt for Holder, Issa says floor vote can still be avoided

Published June 20, 2012
FoxNews.com

• 
  
  
• • 
    Holder Showdown
  • 
    Rep. Ryan: Holder brought this upon himself

A House panel voted Wednesday in favor of holding Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress, a move that inflamed partisan rancor on Capitol Hill and sets up the possibility of legal action against the attorney general himself.
Holder has not yet been formally held in contempt of Congress. The full House would still need to approve the resolution in order for that to happen -- Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., afterward told Fox News that such a floor vote can still be avoided.
But the 23-17 party-line vote on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee marked a significant turn in lawmakers' 16-month investigation into the botched anti-gunrunning operation Fast and Furious. With the vote, Republicans on the committee signaled they had exhausted all other means to extract sought-after documents from the Justice Department -- though Democrats had insisted there was still an opportunity to sort out the mess without a contempt vote.
"We and the American people need answers sooner, not later," said Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the committee.
Issa pressed ahead with the vote Wednesday despite an eleventh-hour move by President Obama to assert executive privilege over the Fast and Furious documents at the heart of the dispute.
Preceding the vote late Wednesday afternoon was a caustic debate before the committee that spanned six hours, as Democrats accused Issa of prosecuting a "political witch hunt" and Republicans stepped up their criticism of Holder's "stonewalling" over the Fast and Furious probe. Even for Washington, the tone at the hearing was decidedly bitter and accusatory.
Rep. Trey Gowdy, R-S.C., shouted while rattling off his complaints against the Justice Department.
On the other side, Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., ranking Democrat on the committee, offered an impassioned defense of the attorney general even as he and other Democrats acknowledged Fast and Furious was severely flawed.
"I don't think he's hiding a damn thing," Cummings said of Holder shortly before the contempt vote.
Democrats roundly voiced disappointment with the proceedings, describing them as politically motivated and avoidable. They pleaded with Issa to seriously consider Obama's executive privilege claim -- the first Obama has asserted -- while some said Holder was being punished for withholding internal documents he shouldn't be turning over anyway.
Republicans praised Issa for pressing ahead, describing the vote as entirely unavoidable considering the department's alleged refusal to cooperate. They frequently invoked the name of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry -- Fast and Furious-linked guns were found at the scene of Terry's murder in 2010. And Issa indicated he was waiting for a more detailed explanation from the White House, and a letter from Obama himself, before even considering changing course based on the executive privilege claim.
Issa also accused the Justice Department of trying to compel the committee to close its investigation in exchange for documents it hasn't yet seen. "I can't accept that deal. No other committee chairman would," he said.
But Cummings fired back that Holder never made such a demand -- a Justice official also refuted Issa's claim -- and said the attorney general had come to the committee in "good faith" to try and work out an agreement.
Cummings said the contempt vote has "diminished" the prestige of the panel. "For the past year, you've been holding the attorney general to an impossible standard," he said, addressing Issa. "Mr. Chairman, it did not have to be this way. It really didn't."
Rep. Carolyn Maloney, D-N.Y., added that she was "horrified" by the panel's looming vote, calling it a "political witch hunt" and accusing Republicans of "overruling" the president.
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee was first informed of the president's decision to assert executive privilege over the disputed Fast and Furious documents in a letter Wednesday morning, shortly before the contempt vote was scheduled.
Issa said committee staff were evaluating the letter but described the move as too little, too late as he and other GOP lawmakers questioned the basis for the assertion. "This untimely assertion by the Justice Department falls short of any reason to delay today's proceedings," Issa said.
The committee, while voting down several Democratic amendments to the resolution, later approved a GOP amendment designating Obama's executive privilege claim as inappropriate.
The move by Holder and Obama to lock down some requested documents only complicates the fight over the botched anti-gunrunning operation between the legislative and executive branches.
After Holder made the request to Obama via letter on Tuesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole wrote to Issa on Wednesday informing him that the president had granted the request.
"We regret that we have arrived at this point, after the many steps we have taken to address the committee's concerns and to accommodate the committee's legitimate oversight interests regarding Operation Fast and Furious," Cole wrote. "Although we are deeply disappointed that the committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the department remains willing to work with the committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues."
Obama's decision pertains to documents from February 2011 and afterward examining how Justice officials learned about the Fast and Furious probe.
Holder, in his letter to Obama requesting he assert executive privilege, said those documents pertain to the "deliberative process" on how to respond to congressional and media inquiries.
In a statement released late Wednesday, Holder accused Issa of rejecting all efforts to "reach a reasonable accommodation."
"Instead, he has chosen to use his authority to take an extraordinary, unprecedented and entirely unnecessary action, intended to provoke an avoidable conflict between Congress and the Executive Branch," Holder said. "This divisive action does not help us fix the problems that led to this operation or previous ones and it does nothing to make any of our law enforcement agents safer. It's an election-year tactic intended to distract attention -- and, as a result -- has deflected critical resources from fulfilling what remains my top priority at the Department of Justice: Protecting the American people."
Holder said claims that his department was unresponsive are "untrue."
White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer also called the vote "a politically motivated, taxpayer-funded election-year fishing expedition."
But Issa countered with a statement asserting the vote was "not the outcome I had hoped for." He said it "would not have occurred had Attorney General Eric Holder actually produced the subpoenaed documents he said he could provide."
Wednesday's developments follow a flurry of activity Tuesday, as Holder tried to negotiate a way to avert the contempt proceedings. Issa had earlier indicated a willingness to postpone the vote after Holder indicated a willingness to make compromises and supply some documents in response to House Republicans' subpoena.
But Issa told reporters after a roughly 20-minute meeting with Holder Tuesday that the attorney general instead briefed them on the documents in lieu of delivering them. Issa told Fox News that Holder didn't provide "anything in writing."
Issa further said during the committee meeting Wednesday that the purpose of the probe "has never been to hold the attorney general in contempt." He said the committee had an aide on Capitol Hill all night in the hope that the Justice Department might send over documents to the panel.
The failed Fast and Furious operation attempted selling thousands of guns to arms dealers along the U.S.-Mexico border to trace them to leaders of drug cartels. However, many of them showed up in crime scenes. Congressional investigators have been trying to determine if and when high-level Justice officials knew about problems with the operation.
After a day in which their son's name was repeatedly invoked, Terry's parents Josephine and Kent Terry also released a statement Wednesday afternoon expressing disappointment with the administration's latest actions.
"Attorney General Eric Holder's refusal to fully disclose the documents associated with Operation Fast and Furious and President Obama's assertion of executive privilege serves to compound this tragedy. It denies the Terry family and the American people the truth," they said.
The Department of Justice has adamantly defended its response. Holder said Issa rejected what he thought was "an extraordinary offer."
GOP House leadership has given Issa the green light to proceed how he sees fit, sources told Fox News, which suggests the vote would reach the House floor.
Issa had demanded to see a trove of documents on the controversial Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation. He also wants to know who prepared a now-retracted letter from Feb. 4, 2011, in which the department claimed the U.S. did not knowingly help smuggle guns to Mexico, including those found where Terry was killed.





Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz1yNVomZnf

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by Capnip-Everdeen

Do you think he will resign?

No way,, he can hang for another few months, telling his lies ,side stepping the facts with loopholes that he created,, besides that there are several cronies beneath him that he can/will blame for 'their' incompetence.

The man still has a lot of U.S. Constitution altering and destroying. Along with preventing states to require by law, to have a picture I.D.,to vote, and more illegal aliens need to become 'legal citizens'

[tommyturtle]

Why should he resign? Obama just handed him a "get out of jail free" card.

[BLKSTANG]

Holder has known about this since the start.It kills me how these people just get to walk!!!

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

No way,, he can hang for another few months, telling his lies ,side stepping the facts with loopholes that he created,, besides that there are several cronies beneath him that he can/will blame for 'their' incompetence.

The man still has a lot of U.S. Constitution altering and destroying. Along with preventing states to require by law, to have a picture I.D.,to vote, and more illegal aliens need to become 'legal citizens'

Really Ace. Is holder the first Attorney general to hold that Congress cannot demand things that might jeopardize an investigation?

Let me guess Ace. As far as you know this is the first time in US history congress, and the justice department, and the presidency has encountered these kinds of crisis?

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Really Ace. Is holder the first Attorney general to hold that Congress cannot demand things that might jeopardize an investigation?

Let me guess Ace. As far as you know this is the first time in US history congress, and the justice department, and the presidency has encountered these kinds of crisis?

Stay focused on the subject,,previous AG's are not being discussed in this thread,, now are they,,this thread is about HOLDER.

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Really Ace. Is holder the first Attorney general to hold that Congress cannot demand things that might jeopardize an investigation?

Let me guess Ace. As far as you know this is the first time in US history congress, and the justice department, and the presidency has encountered these kinds of crisis?

Furthermore,,

Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.): The top three reasons Eric Holder should be held in contempt


On June 20, the House Oversight Committee will meet to decide whether to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress. All of this stems from Operation Fast and Furious, a government run gun running program that had no clear goals, no real oversight and, by many accounts, was intended to cause violence that could be used as a pretext to chip away at Americans' Second Amendment rights. I predict that the House Oversight Committee, of which I am a member, will find him in contempt. That would be the right outcome.

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas): Why Attorney General Eric Holder should resign

Tuesday morning I called on Attorney General Eric Holder to resign from office. Let me explain why.The case against Eric Holder could begin and end with his handling of "Operation Fast and Furious," the program in which our Justice Department deliberately allowed the sale of nearly 2,000 firearms to Mexican drug cartels, and then intentionally lost track of them. In December 2010, two of these guns were found at the murder scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, yet Mr. Holder still has not held anyone accountable. Moreover, his sworn testimony has repeatedly been contradicted by internal memos, and his administration has misled Congress.

Fast and Furious sounds like something out of a movie, and most of the media seems unwilling to pull the scandal into the realm of nonfiction.Your boy is in hot water,,,,,there is no denying that. So lets not attempt bring in previous AG's, in order to alter the conversation, to suit your needs.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

Furthermore,,
Fast and Furious sounds like something out of a movie, and most of the media seems unwilling to pull the scandal into the realm of nonfiction.Your boy is in hot water,,,,,there is no denying that. So lets not attempt bring in previous AG's, in order to alter the conversation, to suit your needs.

I knew you couldn't answer those questions Ace because they haven't been washed into your brain yet by the right wing false propaganda machine.

And here's why Holder is not in trouble. First and foremost Holder didn't do anything wrong in connection with Fast and Furious. He obviously didn't know about it until after Terry's death and shut it down immediately as soon as he did.

This has been nothing more than a conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger phony assed witch-hunt trying to smear and damage an innocent human being just because he works for President Obama's administration and does an excellent job of being Attorney General.

So here's the real deal Ace.

Five Things To Know About The Republican Witchhunt Against Attorney General Holder

In 2006, during the presidency of George W. Bush, the Justice Department launched the first of a series of misguided “gunrunning” schemes that eventually led to the death of federal Agent Brian Terry. Rather than look to ways to prevent such a tragedy from happening again, however, House Oversight Chair Darrell Issa’s (R-CA) spent his tenure as a committee chair trying unsuccessfully to embarrass Attorney General Eric Holder.

Next week, Issa plans to escalate this witchhunt by holding an committee vote on a resolution to hold the Attorney General in contempt of Congress. Here’s what you need to know about this vote:

1. Issa Has No Case: Issa’s uncovered no evidence showing Holder bears any blame for the botched operations begun under George W. Bush, even though the Justice Department turned over thousands of pages of documents concerning the operations. Instead of accepting this fact, Issa has requested many more documents containing confidential information regarding ongoing law enforcement investigations, and is now threatening to hold Holder in contempt if these documents are not turned over. Holder is entirely correct to withhold these documents, however, because Justice Department documents are not subject to congressional subpoena if they would reveal “strategies and procedures that could be used by individuals seeking to evade [DOJ's] law enforcement efforts.”


2. Reagan’s Justice Department Agreed With Holder: President Reagan’s Justice Department warned in the 1980s that the Constitution’s separation of powers prevents the kind of documents Issa is seeking from being revealed to Congress because of the risk that the legislature could “exert pressure or attempt to influence the prosecution of criminal cases.”


3. Law Enforcement Rejects Issa’s Witchhunt: Issa’s efforts to embarrass Holder are an unnecessary distraction that hinders the Department of Justice’s ability to do its real job. As an organization representing numerous senior law enforcement officials warned Issa, his efforts are “an impediment to the vigorous enforcement of violence and crime.”


4. Even Top Republicans Think Issa Goes Too Far: After Issa leaked his plans to pursue contempt charges to the media, the House Republican leadership pressured him to back off. Indeed, even House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) has indicated that Issa is overreaching.


5. Issa Is Fixated On A Conspiracy Theory: Perhaps the most bizarre aspect of this affair is what Issa once suggested his investigation will uncover. In an interview with Sean Hannity, Issa claimed that the Obama administration “made a crisis” when they continued the Bush-era gunrunning operations because they wanted to “us[e] this crisis to somehow take away or limit people’s Second Amendment rights.” This accusation originates from a former militiaman who supports violent resistance to imagined government attempts to seize his guns. And it amounts to an accusation that a series of botched gun stings that begun during the Bush Administration were actually part of a secret Obama plot to release guns to Mexican drug lords, so that those guns could then be used to kill federal agents, which would then cause a national uprising in support of gun control.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...eneral-holder/

[tommyturtle]

Originally Posted by stumbler

And here's why Holder is not in trouble. First and foremost Holder didn't do anything wrong in connection with Fast and Furious. He obviously didn't know about it until after Terry's death and shut it down immediately as soon as he did.

If that is true, then why did the administration delay and delay and delay giving Congress the requested documents and eventually refuse when Holder said he could provide the documents. Why did Obama feel the need to invoke executive privilege?

If there is evidence that the Bush administration was involved then I would think that the Obama administration would cheerfully WANT to provide all of the damning evidence it could dig up.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

If that is true, then why did the administration delay and delay and delay giving Congress the requested documents and eventually refuse when Holder said he could provide the documents. Why did Obama feel the need to invoke executive privilege?

First, because as Attorney General Holder has pointed out dozens of times now it would be against the law for him to release information concerning on going investigations. Those cannot be made public. Holder has explained that to Issa several times and even offered to sit down with them and go over the documents.

So instead of Holder holding anything up this is simply a fishing expedition to keep their witch hunt going.

And president Obama invoked executive privilege for the same reason holder had refused to turn over information dealing with on going investigations.

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

If there is evidence that the Bush administration was involved then I would think that the Obama administration would cheerfully WANT to provide all of the damning evidence it could dig up.

You know what gets me about this is why don't you bother to even look at this thread because these questions have been asked and answered several times now.

The "gun walking investigations" started with the Bush Administration called Operation Wide Receiver. And then was expanded in Operation Fast and Furious.

And that's because there was a Bush appointee in charge.

Finally if you'd been even remotely following this investigation you would know that Issa and the other Republicans on the committee have consistently blocked any mention of investigation of Operation Wide Receiver because this is not a real investigation. Its a pure and simple political witch hunt on the part of the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress.

[CS natureboy]

F&F: Holder backs away from claims Bush administration knew of operation

• Posted on June 20, 2012 at 1:17pm by Meredith Jessup

Yeah… the Attorney General of the United States *inadvertently* accused his predecessor of knowingly approving Fast & Furious while under oath and now all of the sudden realizes the claim was false? Sure.

In a second major retraction over its version of the the gun-walking scandal, the Justice Department has retracted Attorney General Eric Holder’s charge in a hearing last week that his Bush administration predecessor had been briefed on the affair.
In a memo just released by Sen. Chuck Grassley, the Iowa senator reveals that Holder also didn’t apologize to former Attorney General Michael Mukasey for dragging him into the Fast & Furious scandal that is headed for a major legal clash and likely contempt of Congress charge against Holder.
According to Grassley’s memo, Justice said that Holder “inadvertently” made the charge against Mukasey in a hearing.

“In his eagerness to blame the previous administration, Attorney General Holder got his facts wrong. And his tactic didn’t bring us any closer to understanding how a bad policy evolved and continued,” Grassley later commented. “Bad policy is bad policy, regardless of how many administrations carried it out. Ironically, the only document produced yesterday by the Department appears to show that senior officials in the Attorney General’s own Department were strategizing about how to keep gunwalking in both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious under wraps.”

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/06...-of-operation/

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by CS natureboy

F&F: Holder backs away from claims Bush administration knew of operation

• Posted on June 20, 2012 at 1:17pm by Meredith Jessup

Yeah… the Attorney General of the United States *inadvertently* accused his predecessor of knowingly approving Fast & Furious while under oath and now all of the sudden realizes the claim was false? Sure.

In a second major retraction over its version of the the gun-walking scandal, the Justice Department has retracted Attorney General Eric Holder’s charge in a hearing last week that his Bush administration predecessor had been briefed on the affair.
In a memo just released by Sen. Chuck Grassley, the Iowa senator reveals that Holder also didn’t apologize to former Attorney General Michael Mukasey for dragging him into the Fast & Furious scandal that is headed for a major legal clash and likely contempt of Congress charge against Holder.
According to Grassley’s memo, Justice said that Holder “inadvertently” made the charge against Mukasey in a hearing.

“In his eagerness to blame the previous administration, Attorney General Holder got his facts wrong. And his tactic didn’t bring us any closer to understanding how a bad policy evolved and continued,” Grassley later commented. “Bad policy is bad policy, regardless of how many administrations carried it out. Ironically, the only document produced yesterday by the Department appears to show that senior officials in the Attorney General’s own Department were strategizing about how to keep gunwalking in both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious under wraps.”

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/06...-of-operation/

You and the Blaze are such ignorant fools Natural Boy because you just defeated your own assertions and contradicted yourselves.

On the one hand you are saying Bush nor his Attorney General knew about operation Wide Receiver and then turning right around and contending Holder and President Obama had to know about Operation Fast and Furious.

A sure sign of lying and propaganda is when you can't keep your story straight and everyone knows that Natural Boy.

[CS natureboy]

Originally Posted by stumbler

You and the Blaze are such ignorant fools Natural Boy because you just defeated your own assertions and contradicted yourselves.

On the one hand you are saying Bush nor his Attorney General knew about operation Wide Receiver and then turning right around and contending Holder and President Obama had to know about Operation Fast and Furious.

A sure sign of lying and propaganda is when you can't keep your story straight and everyone knows that Natural Boy.

LOL, keep on crying pinhead. Because you know everything I have posted is true!!!!

[tommyturtle]

Any idea when Holder's investigation will be completed. Maybe mid November?

[xnxxbob]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I knew you couldn't answer those questions Ace because they haven't been washed into your brain yet by the right wing false propaganda machine.

And here's why Holder is not in trouble. First and foremost Holder didn't do anything wrong in connection with Fast and Furious. He obviously didn't know about it until after Terry's death and shut it down immediately as soon as he did.

This has been nothing more than a conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger phony assed witch-hunt trying to smear and damage an innocent human being just because he works for President Obama's administration and does an excellent job of being Attorney General.

So here's the real deal Ace.

Five Things To Know About The Republican Witchhunt Against Attorney General Holder




http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...eneral-holder/

[/INDENT]

No Stumbler. This program was intially started under Bush, but in a HIGHLY diluted state. It was under obama/holder that is was expanded and OUT OF CONTROL. Exactly like the economy!!!

[CS natureboy]

House votes to hold Attorney General Holder in contempt of Congress

Published June 28, 2012
FoxNews.com

• 
  
  

The GOP-led House voted Thursday to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for failing to provide key information pertaining to Operation Fast and Furious, making Holder the first sitting Cabinet member to be held in contempt.
The vote was 255 to 67. Seventeen Democrats joined the majority of Republicans in voting yes. GOP Rep. Dan Lipinski voted not present, and 65 Democrats left the floor before the vote.
The vote follows a roughly 16-month investigation by the chamber’s House Oversight and Government Reform Committee into the failed gun-running sting known as Fast and Furious -- run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a division of the Justice Department led by Holder.
Committee Chairman Darrell Issa filed two subpoenas over that period requesting additional information, but has most recently focused on more information related to a Feb. 2011 letter to Congress that falsely claimed ATF was unaware the operation involved the underground sale of assault weapons.
“Today’s vote is the regrettable culmination of what became a misguided - and politically motivated - investigation during an election year,” Holder said after the vote. “By advancing it over the past year and a half, Congressman Issa and others have focused on politics over public safety.”
Prior to the vote, Boehner, R-Ohio, said, “It’s important to remember how we got here. The Justice Department has not provided the facts and information we requested. … It’s our constitutional duty to find out.”
Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi argued House Republicans were more politically motivated in attacking Holder than getting to the bottom of the failed operation, in which at least two of the guns were connected to the fatal shooting of U.S. border agent Brian Terry.
“What is happening here is shameful," said Pelosi, D-Calif.
House members also are voting on a second contempt resolution, which would allow them to go to court to get additional documents.
Lawmakers earlier voted against a proposal by Rep. John Dingle, D-Mich., to return the matter to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

The vote was 255 to 67. Seventeen Democrats joined the majority of Republicans in voting yes. GOP Rep. Dan Lipinski voted not present, and 65 Democrats left the floor before the vote.
The vote follows a roughly 16-month investigation by the chamber’s House Oversight and Government Reform Committee into the failed gun-running sting known as Fast and Furious -- run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a division of the Justice Department led by Holder.
Committee Chairman Darrell Issa filed two subpoenas over that period requesting additional information, but has most recently focused on more information related to a Feb. 2011 letter to Congress that falsely claimed ATF was unaware the operation involved the underground sale of assault weapons.
“Today’s vote is the regrettable culmination of what became a misguided - and politically motivated - investigation during an election year,” Holder said after the vote. “By advancing it over the past year and a half, Congressman Issa and others have focused on politics over public safety.”
Prior to the vote, Boehner, R-Ohio, said, “It’s important to remember how we got here. The Justice Department has not provided the facts and information we requested. … It’s our constitutional duty to find out.”
Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi argued House Republicans were more politically motivated in attacking Holder than getting to the bottom of the failed operation, in which at least two of the guns were connected to the fatal shooting of U.S. border agent Brian Terry.
“What is happening here is shameful," said Pelosi, D-Calif.
House members also are voting on a second contempt resolution, which would allow them to go to court to get additional documents.
Lawmakers earlier voted against a proposal by Rep. John Dingle, D-Mich., to return the matter to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.





Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz1z7zUUWHj

[arripio]

I think the accusations of this being politically motivated are pretty shallow…

I think the bottom line is and should be that a US Law Enforcement Official was killed as a result of this program. There should absolutely be no barriers to the investigation of this program going forward.

[W3x]

Originally Posted by arripio

I think the accusations of this being politically motivated are pretty shallow…

I think the bottom line is and should be that a US Law Enforcement Official was killed as a result of this program. There should absolutely be no barriers to the investigation of this program going forward.

Could not have said it better myself.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by arripio

I think the accusations of this being politically motivated are pretty shallow…

I think the bottom line is and should be that a US Law Enforcement Official was killed as a result of this program. There should absolutely be no barriers to the investigation of this program going forward.

Wait a minute. Are you saying that if it was not for Operation Fast and Furious the border agent would not have been killed that day?

[ace's n 8's]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Wait a minute. Are you saying that if it was not for Operation Fast and Furious the border agent would not have been killed that day?

SHOO,,,SHOO............. Listen here,, you leftists got your ruling,,we got our ruling,,,,,,deal with it.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by ace's n 8's

SHOO,,,SHOO............. Listen here,, you leftists got your ruling,,we got our ruling,,,,,,deal with it.

But you didn't answer the question either did you Ace?

Let's try it again. Are you and arripio saying if it had not been for Operation Fast and Furious Agent Terry would not have been killed that day?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by xnxxbob

No Stumbler. This program was intially started under Bush, but in a HIGHLY diluted state. It was under obama/holder that is was expanded and OUT OF CONTROL. Exactly like the economy!!!

And that is exactly why Attorney General Eric Holder cancelled the program fired some supervisors and reassigned others the moment he found out about Operation Fast and Furious. And the man in charge of it is a Bush appointee because the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress continue to block most of President Obama's nominations.

[tommyturtle]

Originally Posted by stumbler

But you didn't answer the question either did you Ace?

Let's try it again. Are you and arripio saying if it had not been for Operation Fast and Furious Agent Terry would not have been killed that day?

It's a safe bet that another weapon would have been used to kill him. Yours was a rhetorical question that should not have required an answer.

That doesn't change the fact that the US gave guns to criminals. Even if the program was started during the Bush administration, why didn't the Obama administration stop it? Who ok'd the program and allowed it to continue? Why is Holder allowed to investigate his own department? Why can't Congress conduct it's own investigation in the way it sees fit?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

It's a safe bet that another weapon would have been used to kill him. Yours was a rhetorical question that should not have required an answer.

Oh yes it most certainly does require an answer because if its not challenged brainwashed parrots and the right wing noise machine try to use Agent Terry's death for political purposes. When in reality with an estimated 30,000 guns per year illegally entering Mexico from the US there is no shortage of guns and if it would not have been that gun it would have been another.

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

That doesn't change the fact that the US gave guns to criminals. Even if the program was started during the Bush administration, why didn't the Obama administration stop it?

The Obama Administration, specifically Eric Holder and the DOJ did put a stop to it as soon as they found about about it. And even Rep. Issa admits that neither the DOJ or the White House knew about the operation before hand and stopped in immediately as soon as they found out.

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

Who ok'd the program and allowed it to continue?

The original idea was from Agent William Newell:

But in the eyes of the man who started and oversaw Fast and Furious, the operation remains an example of smart law enforcement, an approach that has been misunderstood.
"It was the only way to dismantle an entire firearms-trafficking ring and stop the thousands of guns flowing to Mexico," said William Newell, a veteran federal agent who spent five years as the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Phoenix.
Newell said he believed he and his agents were working the largest gun-trafficking case of their careers and finally had a window into Mexico's powerful Sinaloa cartel. To identify cartel members, ATF agents, beginning in 2009, watched as about 2,000 weapons purchased at Phoenix gun stores hit the streets, with the goal of tracing them to the cartel.
But on Dec. 14, 2010, Operation Fast and Furious came crashing down. A Border Patrol agent was killed in the Arizona desert, and two AK-47s found at the scene were linked to Newell's operation. Agents working under him, enraged, went to lawmakers about the operation, sparking an 18-month investigation led by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who called Fast and Furious "felony stupid."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...24_guns28.html


And it was approved by Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson who was appointed by President Bush.



ATF Director Reassigned; U.S. Attorney Out Amid 'Fast and Furious' Uproar

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1zK8Q2jwM

But in the eyes of the man who started and oversaw Fast and Furious, the operation remains an example of smart law enforcement, an approach that has been misunderstood.


"It was the only way to dismantle an entire firearms-trafficking ring and stop the thousands of guns flowing to Mexico," said William Newell, a veteran federal agent who spent five years as the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Phoenix.


Newell said he believed he and his agents were working the largest gun-trafficking case of their careers and finally had a window into Mexico's powerful Sinaloa cartel. To identify cartel members, ATF agents, beginning in 2009, watched as about 2,000 weapons purchased at Phoenix gun stores hit the streets, with the goal of tracing them to the cartel.


But on Dec. 14, 2010, Operation Fast and Furious came crashing down. A Border Patrol agent was killed in the Arizona desert, and two AK-47s found at the scene were linked to Newell's operation. Agents working under him, enraged, went to lawmakers about the operation, sparking an 18-month investigation led by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., who called Fast and Furious "felony stupid."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...urious-uproar/

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

Why is Holder allowed to investigate his own department?

He's not. The Justice Department is conducting an internal investigation to find out how this happened and who all is responsible for it. There are also still several ongoing investigations involving the gun purchases, who received those guns, and even who is respondible for Agent Terry's death.

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

Why can't Congress conduct it's own investigation in the way it sees fit?

Because there is a big difference between a legitimate congressional investigation and a 14 month political witch hunt and GOP trying to change the subject by trying to invent a scandal that does not even exist.

And now its my turn to ask some questions don't you think. I mean that would only be fair wouldn't it.

What documents is Attorney general refusing to hand over?

And what dates to those documents cover?

You're real good at asking questions, you can answer a couple can't you?

[tommyturtle]

The truth is that I can't answer your questions. Why? I work about 65 hours a week. I have not seen a television newscast nor heard a radio talk show in months. Occasionally I get to see the front page of the local newspaper but only have time for the headlines. Those are usually local stories. I come here as a diversion from real life and maybe learn something about what's going on in the real world. 10 or 15 minutes a day is about all I can devote here. I simply don't have time to devote to research that some of our members have. So I ask questions and await answers, hopefully without the name calling.

I started becoming active in this forum after Obama started his administration so I question the actions of his administration. I was not a fan of either Bush. People who know me would tell you that I questioned the actions of their administrations, too. If Romney wins I will question his actions, too.

In another thread you called me a whiner because I dared to ask what my penalty would be for not having health insurance. (I didn't read that until 2 days after you posted it.) The only thing I whine about here is not getting enough sex.

So maybe I should apologize for asking questions. Maybe I should put posters who name call on my ignore list. Maybe I should go back to only reading stories and sifting through the pic threads. I thought I might try to improve myself a bit by hanging out here and asking questions of those who seem to support the administration. I apologize for offending you but that is all I will apologize for.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

The truth is that I can't answer your questions. Why? I work about 65 hours a week. I have not seen a television newscast nor heard a radio talk show in months. Occasionally I get to see the front page of the local newspaper but only have time for the headlines. Those are usually local stories. I come here as a diversion from real life and maybe learn something about what's going on in the real world. 10 or 15 minutes a day is about all I can devote here. I simply don't have time to devote to research that some of our members have. So I ask questions and await answers, hopefully without the name calling.

I started becoming active in this forum after Obama started his administration so I question the actions of his administration. I was not a fan of either Bush. People who know me would tell you that I questioned the actions of their administrations, too. If Romney wins I will question his actions, too.

In another thread you called me a whiner because I dared to ask what my penalty would be for not having health insurance. (I didn't read that until 2 days after you posted it.) The only thing I whine about here is not getting enough sex.

So maybe I should apologize for asking questions. Maybe I should put posters who name call on my ignore list. Maybe I should go back to only reading stories and sifting through the pic threads. I thought I might try to improve myself a bit by hanging out here and asking questions of those who seem to support the administration. I apologize for offending you but that is all I will apologize for.

No I have to disagree again. Because if I was you I'd stop this incessant; oh poor poor me my time is so precious bullshit and instead use my time more wisely by reading the facts posted on this and other threads which would be far less time consuming than whining to me and asking questions you don't really want the answers to.

And by the way, what the House Republicans are subpoenaing are the emails and internal communications between the White House and Justice Department AFTER OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS, was discovered and stopped which have always been considered under the protection of executive privilege.

Now since you're so overworked and apparently exhausted I'll ask and answer the next two questions for you.

Question: How many times did George W Bush invoke executive privilege?

Answer: Six

Question: How many times has President Obama invoked executive privilege?

Answer: Once.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by tommyturtle

The truth is that I can't answer your questions. Why? I work about 65 hours a week. I have not seen a television newscast nor heard a radio talk show in months. Occasionally I get to see the front page of the local newspaper but only have time for the headlines. Those are usually local stories. I come here as a diversion from real life and maybe learn something about what's going on in the real world. 10 or 15 minutes a day is about all I can devote here. I simply don't have time to devote to research that some of our members have. So I ask questions and await answers, hopefully without the name calling.

I started becoming active in this forum after Obama started his administration so I question the actions of his administration. I was not a fan of either Bush. People who know me would tell you that I questioned the actions of their administrations, too. If Romney wins I will question his actions, too.

In another thread you called me a whiner because I dared to ask what my penalty would be for not having health insurance. (I didn't read that until 2 days after you posted it.) The only thing I whine about here is not getting enough sex.

So maybe I should apologize for asking questions. Maybe I should put posters who name call on my ignore list. Maybe I should go back to only reading stories and sifting through the pic threads. I thought I might try to improve myself a bit by hanging out here and asking questions of those who seem to support the administration. I apologize for offending you but that is all I will apologize for.

Ok tommyturtle now I have another questioln for you and you should be able to answer this one right off the top of your head.

Why did you lie about my response to you on the other thread. Here's my response to you:

Originally Posted by stumbler

Well that all actually depends on the state you live in. Because under the ACA the states are required to expand medicaid and set up insurance cooperatives that SHOULD create pools big enough to actually reduce the cost of health insurance.

But you also have several years before you would even be required to pay anything for not having insurance.

You know what would be a really good idea? Read the actual law or at least apprize yourself of what's in it instead of believing a lot of bullshit propaganda.

http://forum.xnxx.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=74

And as you and everyone else can clearly see I did not call you names nor accuse you of whining. I honestly answered your question and offered the same advice as I did here. Read the thread or at least the factual parts of the thread.

So why did you lie about what I said?

You've got time in your overburdened life to answer that one don't you?

PS And if and when you ever find this I think you should apologize for lying about my response to your question.

[shootersa]

The Obama Administration, specifically Eric Holder and the DOJ did put a stop to it as soon as they found about about it. And even Rep. Issa admits that neither the DOJ or the White House knew about the operation before hand and stopped in immediately as soon as they found out.

And that's the questions isn't it? What did they know, when did they know it, and what did they do about it?

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by shootersa

The Obama Administration, specifically Eric Holder and the DOJ did put a stop to it as soon as they found about about it. And even Rep. Issa admits that neither the DOJ or the White House knew about the operation before hand and stopped in immediately as soon as they found out.

And that's the questions isn't it? What did they know, when did they know it, and what did they do about it?

No because that's already been established and duly investigated by Issa's committee. But because this is a political witch-hunt instead of a valid investigation Issa and his GOP fellows just keep demanding more and more.

And that's not just me saying that. There's a very detailed and solid investigation of Operation Fast and Furious that was recently published in Fortune Magazine. If you're really interested I think it would answer just about every question you could have.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

[shootersa]

Doesn't tell me anything I hadn't heard before.
Fast and Furious was not a BUSH administration program. the man who came up with the idea was newly appointed as Bush was handing over the keys to Obama.

Fast and Furious was initiated early in Obama's administration. So the question remains; when did the Obama inner circle know it existed, what did they know, and what did they do about it?

I watched a lot of Holders' testimony before Issa's committee. Holder was offering little of substance but lots of poop units. In my opinion, he's hiding stuff and willing to take the fall for his boss.

And dummycrat or publican, you just gotta ask yourself; The fuck is going on, what's he trying to hide?

And dummycrat or publican, you gotta ask; so if he's not hiding anything, why isn't he burying the committee in paper?

The answer is, someone in Obama's inner circle screwed the pooch big time, and Obama is trying to cover it up, cause you know, it's an election year and he doesn't wanna have to move for four more years.

And the publicans figure, what with the economy still on life support, and now this gun thing, they actually might have a chance to win something in the next lottery. So they ain't letting it go.

So, you are both right and wrong. It's a political witch hunt but it's one that Obama could have avoided, but didn't, because there really is something he's hiding. Either that or he's plain stupid.

And either way it's gonna end up biting him right in the ass.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by shootersa

Doesn't tell me anything I hadn't heard before.
Fast and Furious was not a BUSH administration program. the man who came up with the idea was newly appointed as Bush was handing over the keys to Obama.

Fast and Furious was initiated early in Obama's administration. So the question remains; when did the Obama inner circle know it existed, what did they know, and what did they do about it?

I watched a lot of Holders' testimony before Issa's committee. Holder was offering little of substance but lots of poop units. In my opinion, he's hiding stuff and willing to take the fall for his boss.

And dummycrat or publican, you just gotta ask yourself; The fuck is going on, what's he trying to hide?

And dummycrat or publican, you gotta ask; so if he's not hiding anything, why isn't he burying the committee in paper?

The answer is, someone in Obama's inner circle screwed the pooch big time, and Obama is trying to cover it up, cause you know, it's an election year and he doesn't wanna have to move for four more years.

And the publicans figure, what with the economy still on life support, and now this gun thing, they actually might have a chance to win something in the next lottery. So they ain't letting it go.

So, you are both right and wrong. It's a political witch hunt but it's one that Obama could have avoided, but didn't, because there really is something he's hiding. Either that or he's plain stupid.

And either way it's gonna end up biting him right in the ass.

See I was just pretty sure all you're really interested in is pushing this discredited conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger false propaganda, but I thought I'd try.

[origen01]

Originally Posted by shootersa

Doesn't tell me anything I hadn't heard before.
Fast and Furious was not a BUSH administration program. the man who came up with the idea was newly appointed as Bush was handing over the keys to Obama.

Fast and Furious was initiated early in Obama's administration. So the question remains; when did the Obama inner circle know it existed, what did they know, and what did they do about it?

I watched a lot of Holders' testimony before Issa's committee. Holder was offering little of substance but lots of poop units. In my opinion, he's hiding stuff and willing to take the fall for his boss.

And dummycrat or publican, you just gotta ask yourself; The fuck is going on, what's he trying to hide?

Eric Holder is a true lawman. Ever wonder HOW we lost track of the guns in the first place?

I think they are investigating corruption INSIDE the ATF. Someone tipped off the cartels....

Releasing that information to Congress in the face of public scrutiny makes no sense and would ruin a pending investigation.

Now if the oversight committee would simply keep the information STRICTLY confidential...we wouldn't be here right now...

[Earthboundhero]

How sad is it that in this great nation of ours, the NRA can attempt criminal charges against anyone based on conspiracy theories? :/

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by origen01

Eric Holder is a true lawman. Ever wonder HOW we lost track of the guns in the first place?

I think they are investigating corruption INSIDE the ATF. Someone tipped off the cartels....

Releasing that information to Congress in the face of public scrutiny makes no sense and would ruin a pending investigation.

Now if the oversight committee would simply keep the information STRICTLY confidential...we wouldn't be here right now...

Funny you should mention that. Some of the guns got lost when the agents were repositioning as reported in a memo that shows the ATF was not simply allowing guns to walk across the border into Mexico as well as providing more evidence of what an unscrupulous political attack this really is.

Instead the memo describes a case where ATF agents were forced to "leave the immediate area" of the stakeout of a suspected gun trafficker to avoid detection. While repositioning, the suspect left the area and eluded capture. From the memo:

Special Agent [Gary] Styers was asked to describe the operations and relayed that one of the operations was a suspected transaction that was to occur at a gas station and detailed agents were asked to cover the transaction. While positioning to observe the suspects, Special Agent Styers and other detailed agents were told by Special Agent [Hope] McAllister that the agents were too close and would burn the operation. Special Agent McAllister told all of the agents to leave the immediate area. While the agents were repositioning, the transaction between the suspects took place and the vehicle took possession of the firearms and eventually left the area without the agents following it.

What was described was an unsuccessful law enforcement operation, not ATF acquiescence to the illegal transfer of firearms. Boyle includes much of the text of that passage in his article, but nonetheless concludes that Styers was describing an operation "in which guns were allowed to walk across the Mexican border." Boyle also neglects to mention that Styers, the author of the memo, wrote that during his involvement in Fast and Furious "he did not see any firearms cross the border into Mexico."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/07...nd-furi/186951

Originally Posted by Earthboundhero

How sad is it that in this great nation of ours, the NRA can attempt criminal charges against anyone based on conspiracy theories? :/

And here's what I think is the biggest lie of all and the real reason the NRA with the help of the unethical conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress is making so much noise and hysteria over some invented conspiracy. And that is simply to drown out some of those same voices in the ATF that testified that due to weak gun laws they couldn't arrest the straw buyers themselves because it was legal for them to buy one or hundreds of guns.

That's why they attempted operations that went beyond the straw buyers.

[Earthboundhero]

I agree Stumbler. The real problem shown here is that certain groups control how members of congress vote. The voice of the rich few is sounding out the voice of the rest of us. Nothing made me angrier than the SCOTUS decision protecting super pacs, or rather establishing them. I was also peeved when Obama flipped on his position on super pacs. And yes, I understand he only did that so he'd be able to fight on equal ground with the republicans, but still.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Earthboundhero

I agree Stumbler. The real problem shown here is that certain groups control how members of congress vote. The voice of the rich few is sounding out the voice of the rest of us. Nothing made me angrier than the SCOTUS decision protecting super pacs, or rather establishing them. I was also peeved when Obama flipped on his position on super pacs. And yes, I understand he only did that so he'd be able to fight on equal ground with the republicans, but still.

My disappointments with president Obama go back further than that. Actually to when he was still a senator and voted to give the phone companies immunity for the illegal wiretaps. And there's been several since.

That being said I still believe since he's actually human President Obama is the most intelligent effective and hardest working president I've seen in my life and also has the most squeaky clean administration I've seen which is especially true for Eric Holder.

And what outrages me is if one really looks at all the congressional investigation and reads their letters and demands carefully neither Sen Grassely or Rep. Issa have dared to accuse the justice department and White house of knowing about the operation in advance because they know better. They have seen the proof themselves.

So instead they are trying to claim holder deliberately lied when he first said the DOJ does not allow guns to walk, instead of just being mistaken and misinformed. And then a far fetched ridiculous conspiracy theory that the Obama Administration allowed Operation Fast and Furious so they can convince the public for more gun laws even though no gun laws have been proposed or are being proposed by either Obama or the democrats.

All that bullshit at a time when what we really need are jobs not political witch hunts.

[shootersa]

Originally Posted by stumbler

See I was just pretty sure all you're really interested in is pushing this discredited conservative/Republican/Tea Bagger false propaganda, but I thought I'd try.

Why what a fine fellow you are. For trying I mean.

All I want is the fucking truth about this; people died, don't forget, and a screw up this big needs to be aired. That's all. If Holder has nothing to hide for Obama then let him open up. Politics be damned.

But we both know that won't happen.

[shootersa]

Originally Posted by origen01

Eric Holder is a true lawman. Ever wonder HOW we lost track of the guns in the first place?

I think they are investigating corruption INSIDE the ATF. Someone tipped off the cartels....

Releasing that information to Congress in the face of public scrutiny makes no sense and would ruin a pending investigation.

Now if the oversight committee would simply keep the information STRICTLY confidential...we wouldn't be here right now...

Tipped off the cartels...............Huh. Imagine that.

Course, the instant this went public the whole "we gotta keep this secret for the investigation" kinda became a moot point, didn't it?

But then you knew that already.

[shootersa]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Funny you should mention that. Some of the guns got lost when the agents were repositioning as reported in a memo that shows the ATF was not simply allowing guns to walk across the border into Mexico as well as providing more evidence of what an unscrupulous political attack this really is.




http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/07...nd-furi/186951




And here's what I think is the biggest lie of all and the real reason the NRA with the help of the unethical conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers in congress is making so much noise and hysteria over some invented conspiracy. And that is simply to drown out some of those same voices in the ATF that testified that due to weak gun laws they couldn't arrest the straw buyers themselves because it was legal for them to buy one or hundreds of guns.

That's why they attempted operations that went beyond the straw buyers.

..........And we all know it was Bush's fault anyway.

TIN HATS ALL AROUND!

[Aa7777]

A cup of water and some cookies. Yum.

[origen01]

Originally Posted by shootersa

Tipped off the cartels...............Huh. Imagine that.

Course, the instant this went public the whole "we gotta keep this secret for the investigation" kinda became a moot point, didn't it?

But then you knew that already.

Wow. You know nothing about this situation.

Congress does not know the names of the agents involved in the gunwalking. That information is classified under executive privilege.

[Aa7777]

How did you know that stuff was classified under executive privilege in the first place?