Guns out of control

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

I cannot post a survey to substantiate this, but I suspect that civilized people in civilized countries think the United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country run for the rich with the enthusiastic support of a white proletariat that is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted to realize that by opposing government spending programs - like universal health care - that benefit blacks they are also opposing government spending programs that will benefit them.

The American love affair with the gun is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve.

I don't. I think of America as the last great hope for freedom and liberty. A country that upholds western values, and a country that hasn't totally succumbed yet to protectionism. A country where freedom of speech is held in the highest regard.

Along with Canada and Australia, I consider the USA as one of the greatest countries in the world.

by protectionism I'm not talking about an economic context just to clarify,

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I don't. I think of America as the last great hope for freedom and liberty. A country that upholds western values, and a country that hasn't totally succumbed yet to protectionism. A country where freedom of speech is held in the highest regard.

Along with Canada and Australia, I consider the USA as one of the greatest countries in the world.

And I feel for the UK an affection I have not felt for the US for many years.

[origen01]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

And I feel for the UK an affection I have not felt for the US for many years.

I agree, the UK rocks.

Except not at the moment because austerity is a bitch...

[tim929]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

I cannot post a survey to substantiate this, but I suspect that civilized people in civilized countries think the United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country run for the rich with the enthusiastic support of a white proletariat that is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted to realize that by opposing government spending programs - like universal health care - that benefit blacks they are also opposing government spending programs that will benefit them.

The American love affair with the gun is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve.

There are a few key words in this post that describe the problems in a nut shell.

"The United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country..." "That is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted..." "Is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve."

The people I have met in other countries and visiting here from other countries are generaly not very American. They are not very American in their attitudes, beliefs or cultural habbits. They tend to have been raised to be polite rather than offensive. They have been raised to be respectful rather than selfish and snyde. They have been raised in countries where being vulgar, uncouth, sarcastic, rude, obnoxious, selfish, demanding, spoiled, ignorant, biggoted and a host of other negative attributes are generaly considered impolite and are frowned upon. Public behavior and public order trump peoples rights to behave like complete assholes towards other people. Teaching people to respect one another and having a social system that discourages disrespect and embraces decent behavior has an impact on general violence.In the U.S. on the other hand we have embraced bad behavior in the interest of free speach. After all, its my right to behave like a complete asshole in public and who the fuck do you think you are to tell me different?

Disrespect in this country has risen to the point that people have become frustrated and angry for having been slighted and insulted at every turn. Considering that many of the people around us are not wrapped all that tightly to begin with, in many cases its only a matter of time befor they take a swing at someone for cutting in line at the supermarket or take a shot at someone in traffic for cutting them off. Incidents of road rage for example have been on the increase for years, and while most dont involve a gun, its only a matter of time befor this rage turns deadly and more people start shooting at eachother to settle the score. Add in the occasional nut case with an agenda and a serious need for mental health care and you get...mass shootings. SUPPRISE!! People have breaking points. Stress compounded with social awkwardness and a few other painful issues as well as mental illness or just not being wrapped quite tightly enough breeds people who snap and run around shopping malls or theaters with guns shooting indescriminately into the crowd in their desperate effort to regain control of their patheticly distorted little lives.

I have asked myself the question more than once...what would the results have been if the Virginia Tech shooter had been getting laid on a regular baisis? What would he have done if he had aquired a few close friends and had a social life? It seems that the people most prone to these sorts of events are socialy disconnected and tend to be loners with no social skills and no girlfriends who got or are still getting pushed around by aggressive asholes with no manners.

[tim929]

In the theater shooting there may be a twist. According to witnesses they observed the shooter take a phone call, leave and then come back in dressed in combat gear and shooting. There are also questions of how a student with $650 in rent due every month plus expenses and collecting unemployment could afford several thousand dollars worth of weapons and ammunition plus what most experts agree had to have been at least seven to ten grand worth of tactical gear, all bought within the space of a couple of months. There may be other fish out there yet to fry.

[Distant Lover]

Originally Posted by tim929

There are a few key words in this post that describe the problems in a nut shell.

"The United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country..." "That is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted..." "Is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve."

The people I have met in other countries and visiting here from other countries are generaly not very American. They are not very American in their attitudes, beliefs or cultural habbits. They tend to have been raised to be polite rather than offensive. They have been raised to be respectful rather than selfish and snyde. They have been raised in countries where being vulgar, uncouth, sarcastic, rude, obnoxious, selfish, demanding, spoiled, ignorant, biggoted and a host of other negative attributes are generaly considered impolite and are frowned upon. Public behavior and public order trump peoples rights to behave like complete assholes towards other people. Teaching people to respect one another and having a social system that discourages disrespect and embraces decent behavior has an impact on general violence.In the U.S. on the other hand we have embraced bad behavior in the interest of free speach. After all, its my right to behave like a complete asshole in public and who the fuck do you think you are to tell me different?

Disrespect in this country has risen to the point that people have become frustrated and angry for having been slighted and insulted at every turn. Considering that many of the people around us are not wrapped all that tightly to begin with, in many cases its only a matter of time befor they take a swing at someone for cutting in line at the supermarket or take a shot at someone in traffic for cutting them off. Incidents of road rage for example have been on the increase for years, and while most dont involve a gun, its only a matter of time befor this rage turns deadly and more people start shooting at eachother to settle the score. Add in the occasional nut case with an agenda and a serious need for mental health care and you get...mass shootings. SUPPRISE!! People have breaking points. Stress compounded with social awkwardness and a few other painful issues as well as mental illness or just not being wrapped quite tightly enough breeds people who snap and run around shopping malls or theaters with guns shooting indescriminately into the crowd in their desperate effort to regain control of their patheticly distorted little lives.

I have asked myself the question more than once...what would the results have been if the Virginia Tech shooter had been getting laid on a regular baisis? What would he have done if he had aquired a few close friends and had a social life? It seems that the people most prone to these sorts of events are socialy disconnected and tend to be loners with no social skills and no girlfriends who got or are still getting pushed around by aggressive asholes with no manners.

How do you account for someone like Ted Bundy? He was good looking, and had a charming personality.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by tim929

There are a few key words in this post that describe the problems in a nut shell.

"The United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country..." "That is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted..." "Is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve."

The people I have met in other countries and visiting here from other countries are generaly not very American. They are not very American in their attitudes, beliefs or cultural habbits. They tend to have been raised to be polite rather than offensive. They have been raised to be respectful rather than selfish and snyde. They have been raised in countries where being vulgar, uncouth, sarcastic, rude, obnoxious, selfish, demanding, spoiled, ignorant, biggoted and a host of other negative attributes are generaly considered impolite and are frowned upon. Public behavior and public order trump peoples rights to behave like complete assholes towards other people. Teaching people to respect one another and having a social system that discourages disrespect and embraces decent behavior has an impact on general violence.In the U.S. on the other hand we have embraced bad behavior in the interest of free speach. After all, its my right to behave like a complete asshole in public and who the fuck do you think you are to tell me different?

Disrespect in this country has risen to the point that people have become frustrated and angry for having been slighted and insulted at every turn. Considering that many of the people around us are not wrapped all that tightly to begin with, in many cases its only a matter of time befor they take a swing at someone for cutting in line at the supermarket or take a shot at someone in traffic for cutting them off. Incidents of road rage for example have been on the increase for years, and while most dont involve a gun, its only a matter of time befor this rage turns deadly and more people start shooting at eachother to settle the score. Add in the occasional nut case with an agenda and a serious need for mental health care and you get...mass shootings. SUPPRISE!! People have breaking points. Stress compounded with social awkwardness and a few other painful issues as well as mental illness or just not being wrapped quite tightly enough breeds people who snap and run around shopping malls or theaters with guns shooting indescriminately into the crowd in their desperate effort to regain control of their patheticly distorted little lives.

I have asked myself the question more than once...what would the results have been if the Virginia Tech shooter had been getting laid on a regular baisis? What would he have done if he had aquired a few close friends and had a social life? It seems that the people most prone to these sorts of events are socialy disconnected and tend to be loners with no social skills and no girlfriends who got or are still getting pushed around by aggressive asholes with no manners.

It was actually foreign exchange students that managed to point out to me just how engrained violence is in our culture when they refused to play American football due to the violent nature of the game.

And since one of them was really good soccer player I pointed out the rough and tumble nature of that game and they didn't even have pads or helmet.

But as he retorted in soccer the hits and rough play are for the most part accidental, while in our American football our couches were actually telling him to deliberately hit people hard enough to hopefully injure them.

Originally Posted by tim929

In the theater shooting there may be a twist. According to witnesses they observed the shooter take a phone call, leave and then come back in dressed in combat gear and shooting. There are also questions of how a student with $650 in rent due every month plus expenses and collecting unemployment could afford several thousand dollars worth of weapons and ammunition plus what most experts agree had to have been at least seven to ten grand worth of tactical gear, all bought within the space of a couple of months. There may be other fish out there yet to fry.

I think the first question is what the lawsuits will be based on. Had there been an alarm on the door that went off when the emergency door was opened this tragedy might have been prevented.

But I have to wonder about the other question myself although I suspect his parents might have been supporting him financially not knowing what he was doing with the money.

And of course the first question for me is why?

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

How do you account for someone like Ted Bundy? He was good looking, and had a charming personality.

He was a sexual predator and a serial killer. He killed women for sexual gratification. That is different to someone that snaps, enters a school or theatre and starts executing people. Most (but not all) serial killers tend to be white males, with above average IQ and good social skills. Usually with serial killers something happens to them during puberty where violence is involved, many times in a sexual context, and wires get crossed in their brains. They act on compulsion and sexual desires.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by deviousdave

He was a sexual predator and a serial killer. He killed women for sexual gratification. That is different to someone that snaps, enters a school or theatre and starts executing people. Most (but not all) serial killers tend to be white males, with above average IQ and good social skills. Usually with serial killers something happens to them during puberty where violence is involved, many times in a sexual context, and wires get crossed in their brains. They act on compulsion and sexual desires.

While I agree with your analysis of the difference between serial killers and killers like the one in Colorado I can't accepted the "snapped" scenario.

Someone who obviously spent months planning this and collecting the necessary guns and body armor didn't just suddenly snapped.

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by stumbler

While I agree with your analysis of the difference between serial killers and killers like the one in Colorado I can't accepted the "snapped" scenario.

Someone who obviously spent months planning this and collecting the necessary guns and body armor didn't just suddenly snapped.

I agree. Snapped implies a reaction where you instantly have to respond to something distressing. Like losing your temper and getting in a fight.

What I meant was someone feeling the weight of the world piling up on them, to the point of losing the plot, then plotting and acting out revenge.

I'm not saying that these mass killings are people acting on an impulse. In fact I would suggest the opposite.

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

And I feel for the UK an affection I have not felt for the US for many years.

Get some national pride! Here, this might help.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I agree. Snapped implies a reaction where you instantly have to respond to something distressing. Like losing your temper and getting in a fight.

What I meant was someone feeling the weight of the world piling up on them, to the point of losing the plot, then plotting and acting out revenge.

I'm not saying that these mass killings are people acting on an impulse. In fact I would suggest the opposite.

I agree there's a rather high level of contemplation, planning, and then trying to carry out the plan.

But that still leaves with a blank to understand let alone describe what is their thinking and what they are trying to accomplish and why they apparently have no feelings.

Its like they are acting out some video game as far as I can see except this one has real bullets and real deaths and injuries.

[Druidoak]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

How do you account for someone like Ted Bundy? He was good looking, and had a charming personality.

Bundy was Christian!

http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/bundy.htm

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I agree there's a rather high level of contemplation, planning, and then trying to carry out the plan.

But that still leaves with a blank to understand let alone describe what is their thinking and what they are trying to accomplish and why they apparently have no feelings.

Its like they are acting out some video game as far as I can see except this one has real bullets and real deaths and injuries.

It's hard to say. Some people literally don't feel emotion, at least to the same extent of "normal" people, it is the dictionary definition of a psychopath, not all psychopaths are evil though, in fact the majority of them live crime free normal lives. They tend to be thrill seekers that have to do extreme things to get the level of a buzz you or I may get from perhaps a tame roller coaster ride. Psychopaths lack empathy, they make good business people for obvious reasons.

I don't know if this guy is a psychopath, probably not, something about people that go on these killing sprees suggest they seek attention and that the sprees are highly emotionally fuelled events, not something that fits with a stereotypical psychopath.

However, a person such as Anders Breivik is a classic case of a psychopath, someone with no remorse for their actions, empathy for the victims, he killed not for personal attention but for the attention of extreme political views.

I'm guessing the theatre killer was someone that knows the difference from right and wrong, but has trouble distinguishing the difference between fantasy and reality, with regard to what it means to all the people involved and their families. I believe it is someone who has a grudge against the world, and believes anyone is fair game.

[McDick]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

And I feel for the UK an affection I have not felt for the US for many years.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you feel no affection for the United States. It does surprise me that you admit it. I think all socialists who wish to "fundamentally transform" America and think that we're a bunch of violent, vulgar, uncouth, stupid people who "cling to their guns" have a deep seated disdain for U.S. It certainly seems to fit in your case.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by Druidoak

Bundy was Christian!

http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/bundy.htm

Oh fuck.

I did not see him walking right into that one.

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Oh fuck.

I did not see him walking right into that one.

I'm not sure I understand the point behind his comment. There are over a billion or so other Christians that aren't serial killers.

It is a bit like saying Stalin had millions killed because he was an atheist. Yet crime among atheists is much less than those that belong to a religion, disproportionately so.

[AZRIEL]

shootersa.jpg

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by deviousdave

It's hard to say. Some people literally don't feel emotion, at least to the same extent of "normal" people, it is the dictionary definition of a psychopath, not all psychopaths are evil though, in fact the majority of them live crime free normal lives. They tend to be thrill seekers that have to do extreme things to get the level of a buzz you or I may get from perhaps a tame roller coaster ride. Psychopaths lack empathy, they make good business people for obvious reasons.

But that's not the usual case it seems to me. Not psychopaths and not insane. Seemingly just normal people until they begin firing.

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I don't know if this guy is a psychopath, probably not, something about people that go on these killing sprees suggest they seek attention and that the sprees are highly emotionally fuelled events, not something that fits with a stereotypical psychopath.

And we are in agreement on this and I'm very much beginning to think that it actually is more associated with Andy Warhol's prediction in the future everyone will be famous for 15 minutes.

I am actually afraid (and I don't use that word often) that's its a combination of our glorification of violence and our obsession with celebrities.

Which leads me to believe even at this very moment we have people out there watching all this coverage and thinking; " I want to be famous too."

Originally Posted by deviousdave

However, a person such as Anders Breivik is a classic case of a psychopath, someone with no remorse for their actions, empathy for the victims, he killed not for personal attention but for the attention of extreme political views.

But you see I don't really believe that. I think he wanted to kill for personal attention and made up the reason for it later.

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I'm guessing the theatre killer was someone that knows the difference from right and wrong, but has trouble distinguishing the difference between fantasy and reality, with regard to what it means to all the people involved and their families. I believe it is someone who has a grudge against the world, and believes anyone is fair game.

I agree with the last part of this but also have to think that the way we glorify violence, the way we accept violence as a solution to problems, and our society's embrace of the death penalty all add to the environment that spawns these mass killers.

And that's because when we break the death penalty down to its most basic level it says we as a society believe its OK to kill someone as long as you have a good enough reason.

And somebody has already said it on this thread but hat's what the killer was actually doing. He executed those people because he thought he had a good enough reason no matter what that reason was.

[deviousdave]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I agree with the last part of this but also have to think that the way we glorify violence, the way we accept violence as a solution to problems, and our society's embrace of the death penalty all add to the environment that spawns these mass killers.

And that's because when we break the death penalty down to its most basic level it says we as a society believe its OK to kill someone as long as you have a good enough reason.

And somebody has already said it on this thread but hat's what the killer was actually doing. He executed those people because he thought he had a good enough reason no matter what that reason was.

Yes, I believe that person was me :P

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I'm not sure why European countries have less gun crime than the US. Maybe it is because the US government spends more than the rest of the world combined on a military that is more effective at killing than any nation in Human history. Maybe it is because some states execute prisoners for their crimes, implying that murder is 'okay' if you think someone deserves it. Or maybe it is because the majority of the police carry guns.

However, the main difference is domestic killings in the UK are usually stabbings/beatings or someone being bludgeoned to death as most households don't have a gun knocking about. Where as altercations with a neighbour etc in the USA are often addressed with a firearm.

Also suicides in the UK are usually drug overdoses, hangings and cutting wrists, where as in the US about 50% are people shooting themselves.


In tragedies such as these people are always quick to jump looking for people to blame. Be it liberals blaming gun laws, conservatives blaming rap music and violent video games. Christians blaming atheists, atheists blaming Muslims, Muslims blaming Jews.

There is one person to blame here, it was the person with a screw loose that decided to massacre those people. If guns were illegal, no doubt he would have still been able to get them, and if not, the guy could have gassed the people, he could have blew them up, he could have torched the building. There are plenty of ways he could have killed scores without firearms.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by AZRIEL

Attachment 1917897

What a coincidence this image and shootersa have the exact same spelling.

shootersa.jpg

Is that another one of your socks AZRIEL?

[Druidoak]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Oh fuck.

I did not see him walking right into that one.

LOL

[AZRIEL]

Originally Posted by stumbler

cunt.jpg

Ariel.jpg

[Druidoak]

Originally Posted by deviousdave

I'm not sure I understand the point behind his comment. There are over a billion or so other Christians that aren't serial killers.

It is a bit like saying Stalin had millions killed because he was an atheist. Yet crime among atheists is much less than those that belong to a religion, disproportionately so.

If you do a little research and you will find that the majority of serial killers were raised in some type of Christian environment. As for mass murderers the monotheistic religions have no piers, Hitler was Christian, Catholic Crusades, modern day Muslim suicide bombers.

Do you see the common thread here.

[Sosohard88]

Remember the guy's shirt on Happy Gilmore (Mr. Larson is the characters name, I think). His shirt said "Guns don't kill people, I do."

Blaming a gun for murder is like blaming a pencil for a misspelled word.

[richief]

Originally Posted by tim929

There are a few key words in this post that describe the problems in a nut shell.

"The United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country..." "That is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted..." "Is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve."

The people I have met in other countries and visiting here from other countries are generaly not very American. They are not very American in their attitudes, beliefs or cultural habbits. They tend to have been raised to be polite rather than offensive. They have been raised to be respectful rather than selfish and snyde. They have been raised in countries where being vulgar, uncouth, sarcastic, rude, obnoxious, selfish, demanding, spoiled, ignorant, biggoted and a host of other negative attributes are generaly considered impolite and are frowned upon. Public behavior and public order trump peoples rights to behave like complete assholes towards other people. Teaching people to respect one another and having a social system that discourages disrespect and embraces decent behavior has an impact on general violence.In the U.S. on the other hand we have embraced bad behavior in the interest of free speach. After all, its my right to behave like a complete asshole in public and who the fuck do you think you are to tell me different?

Disrespect in this country has risen to the point that people have become frustrated and angry for having been slighted and insulted at every turn. Considering that many of the people around us are not wrapped all that tightly to begin with, in many cases its only a matter of time befor they take a swing at someone for cutting in line at the supermarket or take a shot at someone in traffic for cutting them off. Incidents of road rage for example have been on the increase for years, and while most dont involve a gun, its only a matter of time befor this rage turns deadly and more people start shooting at eachother to settle the score. Add in the occasional nut case with an agenda and a serious need for mental health care and you get...mass shootings. SUPPRISE!! People have breaking points. Stress compounded with social awkwardness and a few other painful issues as well as mental illness or just not being wrapped quite tightly enough breeds people who snap and run around shopping malls or theaters with guns shooting indescriminately into the crowd in their desperate effort to regain control of their patheticly distorted little lives.

I have asked myself the question more than once...what would the results have been if the Virginia Tech shooter had been getting laid on a regular baisis? What would he have done if he had aquired a few close friends and had a social life? It seems that the people most prone to these sorts of events are socialy disconnected and tend to be loners with no social skills and no girlfriends who got or are still getting pushed around by aggressive asholes with no manners.

We have had issues with road rage over here, Kenneth Noye left his car and stabbed someone to death which was attributed to road rage, though the police at the time thought it was the result of a drug deal gone wrong. But as we do not have easy access to pistols shootings are rare but road rage is here.

All these examples are showing culprits who had few if any social skills, and now we live in a world where you only have to log on to chat, the internet is driving a portion of our youngsters into the arms of loneliness, they have face book pages with two or three hundred "friends" they have never met, they do not need to leave home to be "social" but when they do some of them have no idea how to behave in company, what a future has been unleashed on our children.

[tim929]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

How do you account for someone like Ted Bundy? He was good looking, and had a charming personality.

he was good looking and was charming. However, he was also prone to being a loner and an introvert. When in public he was a very pleasant person with a great personality. However, his list of close friends numbered zero and he was not known for going out and socializing with others. He was very socialy awkward when it came to approaching women although he had girlfriends in the psat he was not even close to being the ladies man that he could have been if he had applied himself. And with the most recent shooter, he was not known as an outgoing person with a sterlling personalty but he was also not known for being anything other than polite and generaly easy to get along with.

We have had issues with road rage over here, Kenneth Noye left his car and stabbed someone to death which was attributed to road rage, though the police at the time thought it was the result of a drug deal gone wrong. But as we do not have easy access to pistols shootings are rare but road rage is here.

True Rich...you have had road rage in the U.K. but nothing even close to the number of incidents that we have in the greater Los Ageles area alone on a daily basis. Americans are, to be blunt...pigs. We have no sense of common decency, empathy, politeness or any other form of civilized behavior. Sure, there are lots of perfectly nice Americans. Me for one. But there are a staggering number of complete assholes with chips on their shoulders just spoiling for a fight. And some of them have guns.

I heard a state trooper once say in a radio interview after a road rage incident where three people in a minivan were shot and one was killed that when someone cuts you off or does something in traffic to offend you the best policy is to just let it go. The other thing he said to agressive drivers was to settle down and drive nice. For the simple fact that you have absolutly no idea who is in the car next to you, and not only may they be heavily armed, they might not be in the state of mind to not gun you down like a dog at the next intersection.Your lucky if all they do is bash in your windscreen and curse at you for a while.

[tim929]

I forgot to add that these serial killers and mass shooters tend to be of above average intelligence and very often come from relatively stable families. There are a few exceptions but that tends to be the trend.

[richief]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

How do you account for someone like Ted Bundy? He was good looking, and had a charming personality.

The rule that serial killers are introverts is based on a study of serial killers, you will find that some do not display the characteristics that the FBI as listed as the "norm" for them, but that is to be expected, you will find perfectly affable SKs and you will find those that scream it from their very being, but most will fall within the middle of the parameters set. Just hope that you do not live next to an affable one.

[Druidoak]

Holms was is a Luthern, Christian connection again!

[Lioness]

Originally Posted by Druidoak

Holms was is a Luthern, Christian connection again!

What the hell does that have anything to do with him doing what he did? He was also a male....

And Hitler was NOT a Christian!!!

[ladygodiva123]

FWIW, the second amendment says Americans have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't specify what type of arms and the Supreme Court has said that REGULATION of firearms is constitutional. No one needs an assault weapon that fires 50 rounds a minute to hunt or defend their home.

[stumbler]

I just wanted to get this one in quick somewhere because its such a great example of how the conservative/Republican/Tea Party will lie in the face of massacres to do the bidding of the NRA and ALEC.

Which probably kills more people than the guns do.

John McCain Ludicrously Cites 'Norway Tragedy' as Proof Against Gun Control

There are times when I honestly have to puke watching the Sunday talk shows. I find myself asking does this person actually believe a word he/she is saying? Case in point: John McCain. David over on Video Cafe writes this about the segment.

"I don't know, to tell you the truth, what we can do, and this immediately leads to the issue of gun control," McCain told CNN's Candy Crowley. "The killer in Norway, which is a country that has very strict gun control laws, and yet he was still able to acquire the necessary means to initiate and carry out a mass slaughter."
"I think we need to look at everything, if that even should be looked at, but to think that somehow gun control is -- or increased gun control -- is the answer, in my view, that would have to be proved," he added.
Crowley noted that James Holmes, the suspected Colorado shooter, had, over short period of time, purchased an arsenal of weapons and equipment, including an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle with a 100-round magazine, two Glock handguns, a Remington 12-gauge shotgun and various types of body armor.
"You get to this point, you don't want the government spying on what people are buying," she explained. "On the other hand, what's the price? The price is all these things we just read off."
"Let's remember it's a constitutional right," McCain replied. "Second of all, if you could prove the case that it, indeed, has a positive effect -- we had a ban on assault weapons that expired some years ago, it didn't change the situation at all in my view."

Hold on. McCain didn't just use Norway to justify Americans stockpiling AR-15's, did he? That's ridiculous. Anders Breivik, the Norway shooter was actually allowed to buy high powered guns in Norway:

He decided to obtain a semi-automatic rifle and a Glock pistol legally in Norway, noting that he had a "clean criminal record, hunting license, and two guns (a Benelli Nova 12 gauge Pump-action shotgun and a .308 Bolt-action rifle) already for seven years", and that obtaining the guns legally should therefore not be a problem.[29]

I guess Norway isn't as strict as McCain makes them out to be, but forget that....The Norway shooting and bombing was their worst violent incident since WWII, can we say the same? Candy Crowley ticked off just a few violent incidents to McCain since 1999.

CROWLEY: Let me turn you back now to the situation in Colorado, and remind our viewers of what has happened. This is dating back to 1999, Littleton, Colorado, otherwise known as Columbine, 13 killed in a mass shooting. 2007, Virginia Tech, 32 killed. 2009, Fort Hood, Texas, 13 killed; 2012, Aurora, Colorado, 12 killed. Different circumstances, different people, but people look at this and say, can't we do anything to stop this?

That's quite a resume all by itself and McCain's lame excuse about the Second Amendment doesn't pass the smell test. How many actual gun owners have joined a trained militia? Jason Alexander answers that question in a very long and well thought out piece:

Many of them cite patriotism as their reason - true patriots support the Constitution adamantly and wholly. Constitution says citizens have the right to bear arms in order to maintain organized militias. I'm no constitutional scholar so here it is from the document itself:

As passed by the Congress:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

So the patriots are correct, gun ownership is in the constitution - if you're in a well-regulated militia.
-
Or from Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Definition of MILITIA
1a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency
1b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
The advocates of guns who claim patriotism and the rights of the 2nd Amendment - are they in well-regulated militias? For the vast majority - the answer is no.

Exactly, but full scale massacres aren't even the biggest threat posed by gun violence, but those that happen everyday.

In 2006, there were 30,896 deaths due to firearms in the United States. This equates to an average of 85 deaths due to firearms each day. (CDC, WISQARS, 2009)

There are tons of stats you can find so I won't bother to list them all. And here's a heartbreaking story that happens all too often around America:

A 5-year-old girl was wounded in a drive-by shooting Saturday afternoon -- the fourth young child to be shot on Oakland's streets in the past 12 months, police said..
--
The shooting was one of several recent incidents involving gun violence and child victims.On Dec. 30, Gabriel Martinez Jr. -- a 5-year-old Alameda boy -- was shot and killed near his family's taco truck in the 5400 block of International Boulevard; 23-month-old Hiram Lawrence died Dec. 9, 11 days after he was struck by crossfire in West Oakland; and Carlos Nava, 3, was killed Aug. 8, in a drive-by shooting in the 6400 block of International Boulevard.

You'd think right wingers would support stricter gun control laws just for the children, but alas, no. It's a question of freedom.



Cars in America serve one particular purpose: to transport you and whatever passengers and/or cargo from point A to point B and so on. However, they can also be a deadly weapon under the control of some people. It is exactly that reason why you are required by law to pass tests to get a driver's license. Every car owner must register the vehicle with the DMV and buy car insurance. And if you abuse the privilege and harm or kill someone, you lose your driver's license. It's the law that Americans have been following for years without complaint.



Why not the same for guns?

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato...ites-norway-tr

[SilverLycan]

Originally Posted by Druidoak

Holms was is a Luthern, Christian connection again!

Dude, ok, seriously, we get it, you hate all the Christians in the world, without having met all of them, and only hearing and reading about the worst ones. You're making all druids look like pre-judgmental dicks. Which I'm sure is not true, I'm sure there are plenty of druids that are super friendly and just want to live their lives in peace, and occasionally dance around archaeological sites wearing long, flowing robes.

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by SilverLycan

Dude, ok, seriously, we get it, you hate all the Christians in the world, without having met all of them, and only hearing and reading about the worst ones. You're making all druids look like pre-judgmental dicks. Which I'm sure is not true, I'm sure there are plenty of druids that are super friendly and just want to live their lives in peace, and occasionally dance around archaeological sites wearing long, flowing robes.

I can't really blame him. I once read the words of Jesus one time myself in the New Testament and came to the same conclusion; that Jesus was actually pretty cool. It's just Christians that give him a bad name.

[AZRIEL]

big un.jpg

[SilverLycan]

Originally Posted by stumbler

I can't really blame him. I once read the words of Jesus one time myself in the New Testament and came to the same conclusion; that Jesus was actually pretty cool. It's just Christians that give him a bad name.

I'm perfectly ok with bashing on Christians, especially considering their track record as an ordered, organized religion. Druid's constant bitching and moaning is downright irritating. You don't see anyone on this forum constantly telling him that modern druidism is basically a form of live action role play, with almost no surviving texts, rituals, or philosophies that can be directly linked to the iron age priestly class that have historically been called druids.

It's like he has nothing to contribute to this forum except: RAR, CHRISTIANS BAD, RAR.

[ridgerunner]

name a 5 of the peolple pictured below and what they all have in common

[stumbler]

Originally Posted by SilverLycan

I'm perfectly ok with bashing on Christians, especially considering their track record as an ordered, organized religion. Druid's constant bitching and moaning is downright irritating. You don't see anyone on this forum constantly telling him that modern druidism is basically a form of live action role play, with almost no surviving texts, rituals, or philosophies that can be directly linked to the iron age priestly class that have historically been called druids.

It's like he has nothing to contribute to this forum except: RAR, CHRISTIANS BAD, RAR.

Yes you do if you look. Me and DruidOak had that discussion lots of times.

But while we have Christians constantly trying to ram their religion down our throats I think we can at least be fair to the Druids.

[Druidoak]

Originally Posted by SilverLycan

Dude, ok, seriously, we get it, you hate all the Christians in the world, without having met all of them, and only hearing and reading about the worst ones. You're making all druids look like pre-judgmental dicks. Which I'm sure is not true, I'm sure there are plenty of druids that are super friendly and just want to live their lives in peace, and occasionally dance around archaeological sites wearing long, flowing robes.

No, I do not hate Christians, I hate the monotheistic attitude of them and us, that they think they are superior to non-christians, non-Jewish, non-Muslim.

No pre-judging at all, Christianity, Jews and Muslims were killing people for not converting long before I was born.

[stumbler]

Wait, wait nothing to worry about Baddog_Woof and his buddy carry 50 caliber machine guns around to protect the rest of us from killers in head to toe body armor.

But some how neither of them happened to be in Colorado the other day otherwise this tragedy would not have happened because they are heroes in their own minds.

[ridgerunner]

wow thread hopping to talk shit like a real 100% pussy

[Druidoak]

Originally Posted by Lioness

What the hell does that have anything to do with him doing what he did? He was also a male....

And Hitler was NOT a Christian!!!

Not to start a fight but.

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...wn/hitler.html

[ridgerunner]

all 5 of the men pictured are convicted serial killer and none ever used guns

[Needstocum69]

You can't take away guns because A. The brits did a study they did the same thing and they took note of what happened: Violent crime didn't change for the better because criminals still found a way to get firearms (If something is illegal people will find a away to acquire it) and believe it or not but more innocent people were killed because they were unable to defend themselves legally we have to come to the conclusion that firearm related crimes will continue unless you give the people commuting those crimes a reason not to i.e. better education and housing will help decrease crime dramatically people won't kill each other over petty things if their standard of living is better

[ridgerunner]

just came across this and as many dead as that suck fuck killed but in a smaller space

GOLIAD, Texas (AP) — At least 11 people died Sunday and another 12 were injured after their pickup truck left the highway and crashed into trees in rural South Texas, authorities said.
State troopers and Goliad County sheriff's investigators were investigating what prompted the single-vehicle crash and did not immediately know the names and ages of the victims. Gerald Bryant, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, told The Associated Press they were various ages and that he personally saw two young children among the dead at the scene.
"This is the most people I've seen in any passenger vehicle, and I've been an officer for 38 years," Bryant said, referring to the chaotic scene.
The white 2000 Ford F-250 pickup was heading north on U.S. 59 on Sunday evening when it traveled off the right side of the highway near the unincorporated community of Berclair in Goliad County and struck two large trees, Bryant said. The 23 people were loaded inside both the truck's cab and bed.
Six of those who died were still inside the truck when emergency crews arrived to find the mangled vehicle, Bryant said.
He said several of the surviving victims had life-threatening injuries. He did not have their official conditions but described them as "very serious." The injured were taken to various hospitals in San Antonio, Victoria and Corpus Christi. Berclair is about 100 miles southeast of San Antonio.
Border Patrol will assist with the investigation.
"It's unknown whether or not (the victims) were illegal, but it's possible," Bryant told the AP.
Crash investigators stayed at the scene into the late hours Sunday to assess the crash, which halted traffic on U.S. 59.
"It's been very chaotic here, and it's very traumatic," Bryant told the San Antonio-Express News earlier from the scene. "It's only first responders out here, and it's very solemn."
A Goliad County sheriff's dispatcher deferred comment to a department spokesperson, who did not immediately return a message left by the AP.




so now we need truck control laws?????????????????

[SexLover32]

Originally Posted by Distant Lover

I cannot post a survey to substantiate this, but I suspect that civilized people in civilized countries think the United States is a violent, vulgar uncouth country run for the rich with the enthusiastic support of a white proletariat that is too stupid, too ignorant, and too bigoted to realize that by opposing government spending programs - like universal health care - that benefit blacks they are also opposing government spending programs that will benefit them.

The American love affair with the gun is a graphic illustration of how much America needs to evolve.

And I good sir, do not care what the citizens of other nations think about America. People still wish to immigrate here. People still have success here. We aren't in a state of chaos. And last I checked, it's a gun that made us what we are today, and continues to keep us the way we are, living the American dream. Not a doubt in my mind that American Exceptionalism exists as much as it ever did.

So frankly, it makes no difference to the vast majority of Americans what other countries, some of which owe us their existence, think of us. It's not like they can do anything about it.

[ridgerunner]

that quoted comment by distant lover just goes to show the narrow mindedness of the world view of the myopic minded english
how did england become a world power??? war and opression
how did the crown gain power????????? war and opression
why was america and austrailia founded????? as political prisons for those that the crown found to unfit for english tastes

jesus get a life since people from civilizes nations such as england, germany, france, austraillia, indi, iran, nigeria, south africa, columbia, mexico, japan, japan, scottland, ...................do i need to continue>want to come here then it cant be too bad

and sex lover it wasn guns that made america what it is it was hard work and determination, what keeps it that way is the will not to be english

[RandyKnight]

PICK-UP TRUCKS OUT OF CONTROL



13 dead after truck crashes in Texas

GOLIAD, Texas (AP) - A pickup truck overloaded with passengers veered off a highway and crashed into trees in rural South Texas, killing at least 13 people and leaving 10 injured, authorities said.

Border Patrol was assisting in the investigation into the Sunday evening crash in Goliad County, about 150 miles northeast of the border with Mexico. It was not immediately clear if those involved were illegal immigrants.

Gerald Bryant, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said at least 23 passengers, were crammed inside the truck's cab and bed, including at least two young children whom he saw among the dead.

"This is the most people I've seen in any passenger vehicle, and I've been an officer for 38 years," Bryant said, referring to the chaotic scene in Goliad County.

The white 2000 Ford F-250 pickup was heading north on U.S. 59 on Sunday evening when it drove off the right side of the highway near the unincorporated community of Berclair in Goliad County and struck two large trees, Bryant said. Berclair is about 90 miles southeast of San Antonio.
Border Patrol, state troopers and Goliad County sheriff's investigators were investigating what caused the single-vehicle crash.

"It's unknown whether or not (the victims) were illegal, but it's possible," Bryant told the AP.

Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/national/authorities-13-dead-after-truck-crashes-in-texas#ixzz21SPYliJ1

[darthel0101]

Originally Posted by RandyKnight

at least 23 passengers, were crammed inside the truck's cab and bed, including at least two young children whom he saw among the dead.
…
The white 2000 Ford F-250 pickup

23 people, lets say an average of 100lb each, that is over one long ton worth of human flesh in a 3/4-TON rated pickup not counting anything else that they were carrying. The likelihood of them being restrained and low in the vehicle is near nil. How much would it take to make the truck unstable due to a high center of gravity and then cause it to go out of control?

DARWIN AWARD except for one thing - kids were involved.