1. shootersa

    shootersa Frisky Feline

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    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/16/bataan-death-marchs-75th-memorial.html

    For those who don't know, the Bataan Death March started on April 9, 1942, when U.S. Gen. Edward King Jr. surrendered to Japanese forces in the Phillipines, who would soon show they had no intention in honoring the Geneva Convention.
    Over eight days, the Allied forces made their way from Mariveles, on the southern end of the Bataan Peninsula, to San Fernando. That's 80 miles, without food and the only water anyone got was what fell as rain.
    While no definitive numbers are available, historians estimate that 1,000 Americans perished while 5,000 and 10,000 of a total 65,000 Filipinos soldiers succumbed to the harsh conditions or were killed by their Japanese captors. Those who survived the death march spent the next 3 years surviving the prison camps run by the Japanese.

    Shooter heard firsthand accounts of the Bataan Death march from his Jr. High math teacher. Mr. McMillan survived the death march and the prison camps and each year in April he closed the math book and told us about his experiences. He was the first person I heard say "freedom is not free". He had a game leg from being bayonetted for being slow to get up, and a scar on his cheek from a sadistic guard. Someone asked him if he hated the Japanese, and he said no, but even 20 years later could not stand rice, and still hated any kind of soup.

    Shooter counts himself lucky in having met a true hero, you know, besides his dad, so early in his life.
    And Mr. McMillan was a hell of a math teacher as well.
     
  2. ace's n 8's

    ace's n 8's Porn Star

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    That was back when education meant something.
     
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  3. NoOneFamous

    NoOneFamous Porn Star

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    You are a few weeks early, this is still March here in the real world.
     
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    1. shootersa
      OOPS.
      Did Shooter do something to trigger you?
      Does NOF need a hug?
      A cookie?
       
      shootersa, Mar 18, 2017
      Mr Smith 36 likes this.
    2. NoOneFamous
      nope, I merely pointed out that this is still March.
       
      NoOneFamous, Mar 19, 2017
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  4. shootersa

    shootersa Frisky Feline

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    ........ and in March US forces were literally fighting for their lives in the Philippines.
    They lacked supplies, manpower and equipment. Churchill convinced Roosevelt that we couldn't fight on two fronts, and that Germany needed to be defeated first, so not even 4 months into the war the order to the Pacific was; "do the best you can do with what you have".

    So if you have a problem with dates being off for the Bataan Death March it indicates you missed the point in the first place.
    Or don't care.
    Either way
    PUTZ
     
    1. NoOneFamous
      Uh no. War Plan Orange called for US forces to fall back into the Bataan Peninsula as far back as the 1920s. We knew we would have to fight our way across the Pacific to get to the Philippines. After Pearl Harbor, that was not going to happen before the Philippines fell. After Dougout Doug;s disasterous leadership, not enough supplies and too many people made it into the Penninsula.
       
      NoOneFamous, Mar 23, 2017
    2. shootersa
      You still didn't get the point did you?
       
      shootersa, Mar 23, 2017
    3. NoOneFamous
      You can blame Churchill and Roosevelt all you want. Those poor bastards were doomed no matter what. The US Pacific Fleet was in no condition to rush to the rescue and the US Army wasn’t able to do much either. The Japanese were going to take the Philippines. They were incredibly brave men in a hopeless situation.
       
      NoOneFamous, Mar 24, 2017
  5. seafoam1

    seafoam1 Porn Star

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    God bless our Greatest Generation and all of the Armed Forces of the U.S.A.
    You are right, Freedom isn't free.
     
    shootersa likes this.
  6. TheDumald

    TheDumald Amateur

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    So this isn't a thread about Batman?
     
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  7. TwoCards

    TwoCards Porn Star

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    Despicable and deplorable Japs. A third nuke would have been warranted.
     
    1. NoOneFamous
      we didn't have a third nuke ready
       
      NoOneFamous, Mar 23, 2017
  8. wantingnot

    wantingnot Porno Junky

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    There was a piece in a recent copy of the Boston Globe concerned with a local man who was one the unfortunate soldiers to make this march. He said in an interview it was a 50 mile death march, not 80. He forgave his captors and received a personal apology from Japan. As an aside, I don't believe the Japanese were signers to the Geneva Convention - the concept would have been so anti-Japanese philosophy at the time, a warrior fights to the death, there is no surrender. Period!
     
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    1. shootersa
      There is also a common decency that all countries need to adhere to.
      No matter your grievance with a country or people, you do not encourage rape, murder, pillage.
      Look up the rape of Nanking; the Japanese slaughtered, brutally, the citizens of Nanking after cutting off any escape route.
      You can look at a map and learn that the Bataan death march did indeed cover 80 miles.
      Most of the marchers seem to have forgiven their captors. Odd, but true.
      Japan was indeed not a signer to the Geneva convention during WWII.
      Your point?
       
      shootersa, Mar 20, 2017
  9. Hush

    Hush Happy Hhedonist

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    MacArthur did not agree with you, so much so that Japan is what it is today, because of our efforts.

    Hush....an alias
     
    1. View previous comments...
    2. TwoCards
      I don't follow, sorry. We nuked them and that insured we wouldn't be fighting them again. But I guess that isn't what you're driving at. Had the Japs treated our prisoners accordingly I would write all other indiscretions off as actions of war.
       
      TwoCards, Mar 19, 2017
    3. Hush
      Do a bit of research, firebombing did much more damage and took more lives, and we hammered Germany for years after WWI, starvation in the streets... How'd that work out? Further, by your logic (of seating anger deeper) how well will Guantanamo work out?

      Hush....an alias
       
      Hush, Mar 19, 2017
    4. TwoCards
      I'm to be concerned about Japan or German anger? Not hardly. Guantanamo is nothing more than another prison. I don't have any qualms about placing miscreants there as opposed to an American prison stateside. Do we need Guantanamo, no. Does it have a use, yes. Are you suggesting that Japan be let off easier than they were. Are you suggesting that those that start a war are given consideration after they lose? If so, I don't agree. The payback in Dresden after Germany was reeling in defeat was brutal, not needed. But I will never lose a seconds sleep over it. Germans weren't starving when Hitler came to power. WWII wasn't our making; it was that of the diminutive dickhead Hitler in Europe and the fucking Japs in the Pacific. That we have to justify any action in either world war is ludicrous. That is like blaming Israel for expansion when they kicked the asses of those that attacked them.
       
      TwoCards, Mar 19, 2017
    5. Hush
      You REALLY need to read a little history, not just the "bang-bang" parts.

      Hush....an alias
       
      Hush, Mar 19, 2017
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    6. shootersa
      Firebombing indeed did do a lot more damage than the atomic bombs we dropped. And we really didn't have a third bomb when the war ended; we did a fine job of bluffing though.

      The bottom line is you people have missed he point.
      I give up.
       
      shootersa, Mar 23, 2017
  10. Hush

    Hush Happy Hhedonist

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    More than that, what happened in the Pacific leading up to the war was purely a result of the U.S. and western powers post WWI isolationist ideals, AFTER a long run of imperialism (why do you think we were in the Philippines, and Britain in S.E. Asia and China), and most of all, considering the Japanese as an inferior people. We were very wrong, and in not listening to Wilson regarding post WWI Germany, and the world paid for it.

    Hush....an alias
     
  11. shootersa

    shootersa Frisky Feline

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    Well yes, lets look at history a bit more, shall we?
    First, after WWI Germany was hamstrung by the allies, blunting any hope of economic recovery or a rejoining of the world economy. That bred discontent and created a vacuum Hitler was able to fill.
    It still does not justify what Germany did to the Jews or in engaging in a war of conquest. Not in any way, not no how.

    In the Pacific Japan had engaged in conquest years before WWI; it was their belief that they needed the raw materials that China and Asia had. They proceeded to try and take it.
    By force.
    Brutally.
    Not just the brutality of war; rape and slaughter of non combatants was not only accepted, it was required. At first the US told japan to knock it off, then sanctioned them, cutting off their oil and steel from US producers. That pissed off Japan and let to Pearl Harbor.

    The US has never engaged in "imperialism". Whether you agree or not, there is and was no justification for the brutality Japan heaped on China and the rest of South East Asia for over 50 years. And no justification for the utter brutality and lack of basic human decency heaped on the participants of the Bataan Death March. Better to have just shot them en mass that torture them the way they did.
     
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  12. Hush

    Hush Happy Hhedonist

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    @shootersa The point regarding Germany solely was based in the regard that due to not easing off of what was essentially "punishments" against post-WWI Germany, as you note it allowed for Hitler to take power, yet worse still prove his initial worth. I recall reading how in Germany it required a "wheelbarrow" of currency to purchase a loaf of bread due to rampant inflation.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    People were starving, and this was all long before the great depression hit. The result was the rich as always fared well, vast unemployment, and immigrant groups and minority communities fared "better" in that they patronized their own. All natural stuff, but, the crushing inflation, the fractioning up German territory, constant humiliations all blamed upon the existing Weimar Republic was so excessive, and the allies were so unforgiving that it fostered the rise of "a Hitler" or similar who would simply say no more.

    There is no doubt in my mind that if Wilson's guidelines had been followed there would have been a much different outcome:
    https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007428

    Point being as I stated previously, simply beating down and then continuing to do so does not insure that you'll never fight them again. In fact, it pretty much insures that you WILL have to fight them again, and this time they'll fight with some justification, that always fires the masses... HOWEVER, I said nothing regarding their war crimes, although, as we see even in this country today, those looking to whip up the people will always find some minority, typically immigrants or religions due to their different ideologies, simply to focus the masses, have somewhere to lay blame, all simply to garner support.

    As to Japan, we absolutely underestimated not only their will, their intelligence, yet also their war machines. Most of the world considered them absolutely backward just before the start of the war, even touting that they flew antiquated aircraft and ships... In reality, they were much more advanced and organized than us. Though the war for them had really gone on for close to a decade by the time WWII started (against Manchuria, Russia, etc.), everyone likes to talk about "Pearl Harbor." Pearl Harbor was a stunning victory, yet the true scope of what they achieved on December 7th is staggering. On 7 December 1941 (8 December in Asian time zones), Japan attacked British and American holdings with near-simultaneous offensives against Southeast Asia and the Central Pacific.[161] These included an attack on the American fleet at Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, landings in Thailand and Malaya[161] and the battle of Hong Kong.

    [​IMG]

    More so, they did not let up and it was solely due to our production capabilities and internal natural resources that we even had a chance to fight back. I've actually done a lot of peripheral research regarding this in that I studied WWII Japanese Army air combat and the campaigns between the U.S. Army 5th Air Force vs. the 4th Koukuugun in New Guinea.

    In any case, without question just like with Germany it does not excuse their war crimes. That had nothing to do with my point.

    My point being, how we dealt with post WWII Japan was due to the lessons we learned in how the world dealt with post-WWI Germany.

    As to U.S. Imperialism? Tell that to Hawaii, Cuba, the Philippines, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Panama, and the list goes on and on. Examples like Iran, S. Vietnam and so on where we would fix elections, fund revolutions, and around the turn of the century literally take over whole nations via supposed liberation (Spain was one of our favorite aggressors). Then we would establish the governments, putting "their" obedient puppets in power, as we controlled them from afar supposedly to simply watch over and protect them.

    In any case, why I tried to keep my points brief in that this thread is about Bataan.

    Hush....an alias
     
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    1. shootersa
      you and I agree on a lot, so where's the beef? Yes, Germany's treatment after WWI led to WWII.
      Japan was after Asia before WWI, and they continued after WWI.
      The US did not take Hawaii, Cuba, the Philippines, the DR, Haiti, Panama etc. in acts of Imperialism. Just didn't. Had bases there, supported the government, but wasn't running the show(s).

      And the point is Bataan. We owe it to the memory of our Men and Women who died there to never forget, and never let it be repeated.
       
      shootersa, Mar 22, 2017
  13. freethinker

    freethinker Pervy Bear

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    @shootersa: "No matter your grievance with a country or people, you do not encourage rape, murder, pillage.
    Look up the rape of Nanking; the Japanese slaughtered, brutally, the citizens of Nanking after cutting off any escape route."

    Look up Sand Creek. Look up Wounded Knee. Look up 500 years of history of the Europeans' treatment of the Native American tribes. I can give you example after example of European brutality, from giving tribes smallpox-infested blankets, to massacres of entire villages down to the women and children, then cutting out the women's vaginas and stretching then over their saddle bows to dry, cutting off men's scrotums and using them for tobacco pouches...it's a rather long list, all in the name of Manifest Destiny, an American policy at the time.

    What one has to remember is that Japan was on our side, the Allies side, during World War One, but after the war, while the rest of the Allies were dividing up the spoils, they were ignored, and denied the territories and resources they felt they deserved. So after the war, they set out to take them. That's what led to their conquests leading up to WWII.

    As to their barbarity, they were still a feudal society, who lived and fought by an ancient code of bushido. Anyone who has studied history can tell you how barbaric and brutal ancient wars were, including rapes, murders of civilians, in some cases complete annihilation of a conquered city's population - even by Europeans. Our 'rules of war' have taken hundreds, thousands of years to develop - the Japanese of the 1940's had not caught up to them yet.

    That doesn't excuse what happened, but maybe it will help explain it. Civility in war is actually a rather recent development.
     
    1. Wafarer
      Japan brought WWII on itself by being greedy.
       
      Wafarer, Mar 21, 2017
    2. freethinker
      Just as the Europeans attempted genocide of the Native American peoples was brought on by greed.
       
      freethinker, Mar 22, 2017
    3. shootersa
      Civility in war?
      How silly.
      War is brutal business.
      Killing innocent civilians enmass when it is avoidable and not helpful to the military mission is not war.
      There is no making excuses for Japan or Germany for their war crimes. They own their brutality.
      Feudal society infuckingdeed.
      Japan's Feudal system was laid to rest by 1875 when Japan actually started it's campaign of conquest. By 1895 they had "colonized" Korea and Taiwan and were actively looting them, and in 1904 went after Russia and Manchuria. WWI intervened, and after WWI Japan resumed their Asia aggression. The brutality they exhibited led to sanctions and the sanctions let to Pearl Harbor.
      One could, Shooter supposes, blame it all on Admiral Perry, if one wanted.
       
      shootersa, Mar 22, 2017
  14. wantingnot

    wantingnot Porno Junky

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    My point simply stated is a country which hasn't agreed to specific actions should not be expected to respect these actions. In fact, they should be expected to act in the way you are suggesting they should not. Also, Japan at the time acted just the way they believe their enemies would act if they were to defeat Japan.
     
    1. shootersa
      Bullshit. We aren't talking about agreeing not to use mustard gas. We're talking about the organized, planned slaughter of non combatants.
      Did you know the Japanese military command even encouraged competition among troops in the field to see how many they could kill and how uniquely they could accomplish that?
      This challenge was to be the first to kill 100 Chinese civilians by beheading them.
      [​IMG]
      One of these assholes even made up a new game; they would cut the fetus from a pregnant woman and see how long they could keep it aloft by tossing it from bayonet to bayonet. They did this after they raped the woman, but made sure to leave her alive so she could watch the competition. Then they killed the husband after forcing him to watch them slaughter his wife and any of his children.

      We need a Geneva convention to avoid this kind of brutality?
       
      shootersa, Mar 22, 2017
  15. wantingnot

    wantingnot Porno Junky

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    I don't see any reason for us to argue. I don't disagree with anything you say I just try to remind you that not all cultures have the same values. I believe the actions of Japan's military during WW II was despicable but I would have expected these actions had I been of age at the time.
     
  16. Hellcat41979

    Hellcat41979 J.A.F.A.

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    Don't worry about it Shooter doesn't understand that it's expected for US citizens to be ashamed of our heritage because of the history of slavery and the treatment of the native americans. But at the same time they say nothing about the Greeks, Italians, or Egyptians for their pride in their heritages. Yet they have similar histories.

    After all the Roman Coliseum was built on the proceeds from the sale of slaves and countless slaves were made to fight to the death within it's walls.

    [​IMG]

    While the Italians can be proud of the Roman heritage the founders of the US were just a bunch of rich white guys that owned slaves.