Fortunately for us, God only speaks to them on a fairly narrow range of issues.

But I still want to know where in the Bible it says that abortion is murder. Perhaps God has spoken more recently on the subject.

 

Im still trying to figure out where God plays into this picture. I dont go to church, im not even conservative. Its pretty clear to me that if you rip a child out of a woman piece by piece then thats murder. Or better yet, lets poke a hole in its head, suck the brains out and then throw it in the trash, yeah, thats humane.

 

You are using the most extreme cases to try and prove your point. And it it humane to force women to carry unwanted fetuses and the expense of their health and psychological well being.

You also over look the problems of over population, poverty, child abuse and neglect. These are serious social concerns.

I'd also point out that abortion is part of the natural process for many animals except humans. Prong Horn Antelope for example, which have been a successful species for more than 2 million years commonly carry up to seven viable fetuses. But depending on the food supply naturally abort any were from four to six of these fetuses depending on range conditions and the size of the population.

It also seems strange that we live in a society that is divided over abortion yet also oppose social programs for the poor and support the death penalty.

 

You say that I use extreme cases, and then the very next sentence you do the same. The following is from http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html

Why Do Women Have Abortions?
- a statistical breakdown*
Responses listed as primary reason %
Social Reasons (given as primary reason) - Feels unready for child/responsibility25% - Feels she can't afford baby23% - Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities19% - Relationship problem/Single motherhood8% - Feels she isn't mature enough7% - Interference with education/career plans4% - Parents/Partner wants abortion<1% - Other reasons<6.5% TOTAL:93%
(Approx.)
"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason) - Mother's Health4% - Baby may have health problem3% - Rape or Incest<0.5%
TOTAL:


7%
(Approx.)




Last time I checked I wasnt an Antelope, or a dog, or a cat. I am a human being, so you can write all day long about what other animals do, and it is'nt going to matter to me. The truth is in the numbers, most women have abortions as a matter of convenience.

 

Actually they all look like pretty good reasons to me and I don't think you or I should act as the judge and jury of what is right for other people.

And actually what I was referring to is abortion being a part of nature and last time I checked humans are a part of nature.

Also it is quite apparent that no amount of logic or writing all day is going to change your mind on this issue. Nor you change mine.

 

I couldnt have said it better, nor do I think less of you because of that. This is something I feel very strongly about, especially after having three of my own. Nothing wrong with expressing our feelings and views in a friendly way.

 

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but after having been nearly aborted myself, I feel I have a bit more credibility in such a debate. Even though I was almost vacuumed out, I still support a woman's right to choose. And if I'm being totally honest, my mom probably should not have had kids. She's not really the mother type.

-S-

 

I agree completely and like your attitude.

This is a very touchy subject but one of the things I see causing great problems in this nation and maybe the world is people who have kids who probably should not have. I've watched parents who purposely create violent and hateful humans, and I've see parents who have kids they could care less about.

 

there are people out there that would love to have kids and would give them the love and care that these kids need so why not take the kids of these bastards and put them in care of the people that want them

 

That's a really difficult question Lor and not one I'm sure I have an answer to. One of the difficulties is there in nothing more sacred than the parent child relationship. Almost everyone would agree on that, so the problem becomes where do we draw the line between the family and the state.

Another problem I don't have an answer to is the mother and child bond. I like ShakeZula was born to a woman who probably should have never had children because she really couldn't take care of us. She is an alcoholic and actually a spoiled brat and at times just give up and scatter out to our father or grandparents. But in her and others I've seen being a failed mother seems to be something unbearable to them so the strive with all their might to get their act together and get their kids back and that motivation seems to be enough. Then they just turn around and do the same thing all over again.

There is also the child parent bond that seems to make many children prefer to remain with their parents no matter how terrible they are.

That's about the best I can do on this question.

 

I myself had a good parents so i can,t really comment on this but in some cases like your and shake it sounds like it made you two better people and better parents it just hard to know that in this day and age this is still going on

 

Its also really complex because some of the parents I've seen with kids they could care less about are really well off people who can give their kids everything except love and bonding. That turns them into really messed humans.

And I've seen a lot of people so poor they could barely afford to feed themselves and their kids raise spectacular humans.

This is one of those questions I've struggled with most my life. And yet my wife was raised by wonderful parents (with elementary school educations although they were actually really intelligent) and she pretty much cured me and we raised the first fully functional and loving family in my family's history.

 

I don't really have any objections to anyone's views on abortion, and I certainly don't care if they choose not to have them...I only object when they tell other people THEY can't have them.

 

all i can say to this is i,m please it turned out well for you

i agree

 

Yes, well if I voted so I suppose destroying possible affinity towards would be a better phrase. It immediately paints them as a dogmatist which is not what I want running the country.

Some people existing in the real world are actually affected by these things, I being one of them.

I really think it would be much like the prohibition if it were made illegal. I can’t see it sticking.

Surely there is some criteria that would make a candidate off limits to you? Not to say that one is paramount, but that one you simply cannot conscionably compromise on?

These two statements really destroy my belief in your making of a rational argument here.

Not that it would change my mind but I am curios what you are calling fact and logic of personhood. I would say rather that no amount of fact or logic will get in the way of dogma and the Alter of Self Righteousness.

At what lengths did the child suffer? Is it any more than the collective suffering to the child, the family, and society if it were born? I have a hard time believing that child suffered anymore than rats exterminated from someone’s basement. After all at least the rat has a fully developed nervous system.

It is a bit strange, but I, and likely the lawmakers, can think of no better punishment for the non-consenting destroying of a fetus. Surely there should be some retribution for the family. I may be able to throw away my bike, but I’ll be damned if someone steals it from my house.

Because it is the religious mind that cares about absolutes instead of rational consequences.

I am a bit confused. I take it this is three kids and not abortions, but since that ridiculous rhythm method has worked so well for the last ten years does that mean you had three before you were 18?

But it’s a matter of numbers. There are an excess of kids sitting in shelters that no one is wanting, theoretically by adding another in there you are subjecting another to life without a family. There is also the case of those who wouldn’t have kept them that end up raising them, when they have no business breeding in the first place.

 

Is that why people are going over sea's to try for kid''s i,m just asking

 

Scientifically life begins at conception.

I would much rather be "self-righteous" than be a murderer (or an accomplice to it). On the good/evil scale the former isn't nearly as bad as the later.

 

Because they want a specific type, the type being aborted is generally not it.

 

The U.S. has very stringent adoption policies. Almost unreasonably so. It's much easier overseas. People usually want to adopt infants. Orphans have a very short shelf-life and once they're past a certain age, their chances of getting adopted and not spending their life until 18 in the system drop dramatically.

-S-

 

Really? That is amazing becouse I was under the impression that scientifically both sperm and ovum are living cells. Murderer of what? Some cells that share common replicating features with us? Is it murder to amputate a limb? Those were replicating cells with "human" DNA.