*shrug* If they commit fraud, they should be prosecuted. Have I ever said otherwise?

 

But in case you missed it, there's a difference between saying there is some degree of fraud in a program, and saying the program itself should be abolished. You betray where YOU'RE coming from with that "socialist" label. The fact that there's fraud provides you with a convenient excuse, but you wouldn't support the program even if all the fraud were eliminated.

 

It certainly would have saved the US a lot of pain... Dubya is the poster child for allowing retroactive abortion!

 

It's my great pleasure to tell you you're wrong.

I don't talk about myself much because it doesn't really matter, the past, but in this case I'm delighted to show you just how wrong you really are.

My mother, a high school drop out, met my father, also a high school drop out, at a party. She was 23, he was 19. He had been on drugs since he was about 7 years old. He was a test case for the drug now known as Ritalin and he was subjected to all manner of drugs while growing up while they ironed out the kinks. My grandmother (father's mother) suffered a mental break down when my father was in his teens and him and my uncle would take great pleasure in stealing her anti-psychotic drugs while she walked around the house thinking she was a fish.

My mother, that I know of, was a recreational drug user, but never a hard core addict. My grandfather, strict roman catholic, hated my father so much that he tried to force my mother to get an abortion. She backed at at the last minute, and I do mean last. She was in the chair with her feet in the stirrups. She instead ran off to a catholic half-way house sort of place that took care of single mothers who didn't have any money.

The first time my father saw me was in the visiting room of a prison. My childhood was filled with long drives to different prisons through-out the state of Missouri. She, having no real education past the 8th grade (to this day she can't spell worth a damn) spent most of her time waitressing. At one point, when I was about 2 or 3, my mother decided she couldn't take the pressure, and ran off somewhere, dumping me with relatives of my father. My first sister, she was conceived while my father was out on parole, went with some other relatives. A few years later, they tried to have my mother declared unfit so my aunt (mother's sister) could adopt my sister. I was to go with my father, paroled again, still drinking and using, and living in a trailer in a small country town outside of St. Louis called Fenton, with his new alcoholic, drug addict girlfriend and her small kid, Daniel. There I was awoken many a nights as they fought in alcoholic rages. One time, when I was about 6 or 7, I awoke to the flickering red and blue lights as one of the neighbors had called the police and my father was led away in handcuffs.

Shortly after that I was brought to my aunt's house, where I stayed for a time before finally moving back in with my mother and her new husband, an abusive, controlling black man named Willi. Willi, probably more uneducated than my mother, had a fondness for beating his new kids. Once, when I was about 10, I was beaten 47 times with a leather strap. I had blisters on my ass so bad that they had filled with blood. A few years later, he got drunk and molested my sister.

One thanksgiving, we ate our dinner (which wasn't really ours, it was things that we had taken home from the family dinner) by candle light because our electric was out. Willi would often volunteer to do work around the apartment because we couldn't afford to pay rent, which at the time was probably around 300 to 350 a month. In that particular home, there were 5 and sometimes 7 of us living in a two bedroom, one bathroom apartment. And yes, there were roaches. Most of the places I've lived growing up had roaches.

Christmas presents were usually things that were edible because you could buy them with food stamps. Lots of summer sausage and huge tins filled with popcorn; orange, caramel and butter flavored.

Most of my clothes all through my childhood were either the cheapest that Venture or Target had to offer, or were goodwill, salvation army or hand-me-downs from my cousins. We were on welfare pretty much most of my life. One of the things we'd do to try and get real money was take a one dollar food stamp (they used to come in booklets that looked like monopoly money) and buy some nickel or dime candy and pocket the change. I've been in food panties lots of times. We always had some sort of government product in our house. You could always tell the government food from regular food because it wasn't labeled. It was white all over with plain black lettering telling you what it was. Cheese. Cereal. Bread. Corn. etc.

One time, in the fifth grade, our school, Horace Mann Elementary School in South St. Louis, went on a field trip to Eckardt's Apple Orchard. The cost was two dollars. My teacher, Mrs. Kimble, had to give me the two dollars and I was collecting apples for her.

Another time, a friend of mine was having a birthday party and they were going ice skating at Stienberg Ice Skating Rink and the cost was about 9 bucks to get in. I had to wait until I was at his house and explain that I had forgotten my money that morning, could he loan it to me.

I was in band in school but we couldn't afford to actually buy an instrument so the school gave me a loaner, a trombone that was at least 30 years old, if it was a day. I played that until my Junior year when my dad bought me a new one. Whenever we went on school trips, I usually had to bring my lunch because I couldn't afford to buy lunch where ever we were going.

I didn't own a car until I was 18 and I worked 40 hours a week and paid 51 dollars every friday until it was paid off. I didn't have my first computer until I was in college, which I got to through student loans that I still have to pay back. During college I worked 40 hours a week and went to school 20 to 30 hours a week. I went to a grand total of 3 parties in college, mostly because I didn't have money to go out. I was 5 hours from L.A. and never went. I was maybe 4 or 5 hours from the Grand Canyon and never went. I was just 3 hours from Mexico and never went. I worked and studied.

So there you have it. A brief history of my life. It's true, Leila will vouch for me, if you require. You might think I'm a liar, but I can't imagine you have any cause to call her one. But I have been poor and I have been hungry and I have been abandoned.

I don't remember it myself but my mother tells me she used to cry all the time because my sister and I were hungry and she had no food in the house. I have never been a drug addict or an alcoholic but my father is, he just relapsed 3 months ago, almost froze to death by the side of the highway at 3 in the morning. He'd collapsed from the cold and if someone hadn't alerted the police that there was a body lying on the side of the highway, he would have died. He's not in recovery again and about to get 90 days sober. My sister is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, (the one who was molested), my uncle is a recovering addict, my grandfather (father's father) was a drunk and died in a car accident, my uncle (mother's side) is a drug addict and alcoholic...

But I figure that's enough. Would you like to make any more asinine assumptions?

-S-

 

When did I say the system should be abolished??? You are grasping at straws here, Kimi, I have never said that social welfare programs should be eliminated.

In fact I have supported them, my problem is the scope and enforcement of the programs. We do very little to encourage people to get off the public dole, there is little or no incentive. Where there have been incentives, it has worked. We also are very slow to weed fraud from the system, at every level.

Our problems, IMO, is that we actually encourage people not to work, that the penalties for getting off are too severe, it is simply more economicly attractive to stay on the dole.

 

Boy, could I ever see THAT one coming....

I'm sorry, Shake, that you felt compelled to spell all that out.

 

Oh, but they're socialistic, tenguy! Didn't you just say that? And isn't that the worst thing you can imagine?

 

That's quite a comeback Shake... congratulations on making much more of your life than you were given.

I think even Baller will have a hard time telling you that you don't know what a hard life is...

 

No they're not socialistic, they're programs of human compassion. Socialism is when all of the wealth is distruibuted equally among the community, this ain't even close.


Back to your tenet that it must be all or nothing.

 

You said it, not me. See Post #120.

And by the way, your definition of socialism is closer to communisim.

socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

i'm really, really sorry shake. but i know you were trying to prove a point, not look for sympathy.

 

Shakezula I certainly know when I've had me a new one ripped. I apologise for the assumptions made about your background.

However, I do stand firm when I say that drug use, abuse and crime are not restricted to those in society who have little to no money and/or education. Do you suggest then that those who are born with the means to support both their habits AND family receive the same contraceptive pass out as those without?

 

See where it says that we should abolish the whole shebang???? NO, me neither, what I do say is stop the freaking fraud, how is that inconsistant???

The socialistic problems are the structure of scope,the lack of serious effort to eliminate fraud and no apparent intent to break the cycle.

Now what were you saying??? Sorry, I'll be back to talk later, I need to go to a board meeting of our yacht club.

 

Fine...then we have no debate. Welfare programs are a good thing, emblematic of an enlightened and compassionate society, and there should be increased effort to eliminate fraud. And you agree that your definition of socialism is erroneous. Peace out.

 

Answer to first question
If you do not have the means to take care of a child, you should not have the child, it is your natural right to have the child because it is your body, your sperm, or your egg, to do with as you chose. In nature there are enough organisms that don't care for there children, so it is not a natural right to take care of a child, it could go either way, but it is indisputable that having a child is the right of the organism, taking care of the child or not is also a right, sorry to be cold but humans are animals, and even though we are civilized it does not mean that we don't reflect what happens in nature. Raising them or not raising them is the right of the parent, its fucked up but its the truth, and don't i know it.
Second question answer
I wouldn't entrust my child to a lot of people, i wouldn't let a Neo-Nazi care for my child, no matter how many resources he had to draw from, and how well he could raise him. That doesn't mean that the Neo-Nazi doesn't have the right to have his children, because i don't agree with the way he lives.I wouldn't entrust my child with Ozzie Osbourne, no matter what resources he has, and his ability to put food on the table, but i don't have the right to say that he needs to be sterilized.

I can see that you're situation was rough, and i feel for you man i really do, but you have made yourself a new place in this world, so how could you be the one to say that others shouldn't be allowed to? I understand that its because you don't want anybody having to go through what you did, but do you not feel it made you stronger today, and less willing to take things for granted? Might just be my outlook on my situation...

The state can take a child away for abuse and negligence because those are acts directly on the child, and the child needs to be out of the situation because it is harming the child. At the point of conception and until the baby is birthed, according to how the country must act according to church and state, it is still a part of the parents body, and nothing more then that. The country does not have any way legally to control what people do to there bodies, and don't have the ability to regulate what they do to themselves unless it would cause themselves or others harm, and if you know a case in which the country can make a decision on what a person can do with there own bodies, please i'd like to see it.
Anyways, thats just what i'm thinkin, feel free to tell me if you think i'm going wrong.

 

No it doesn't ShakeZula. You think everyone deemed fit and financially able will stay that way. Bullshit. Poverty does not cause poverty. Greed does, and winners and losers. You claim all this manner of abuse and suffering but that's not the way everybody does. I've known lots of kids that were born into poor and even neglectful families. I don't know a one of them that wishes they were not here and alive.

From my own personal experience and observations I don't see this as being true. We've got a system that is stacked to keep people in poverty while the rich get richer, but I've seen lots of people climb there way out. Now they might not meet your standards but they damn sure are surviving and so are their kids.

On the other hand I've seen lots of pretty well off people that were more fucked up than most drug addicts and raised kids the same way. But under your plan that would be just fine as long as poor people don't breed.

Did you see anywhere in the story where it said this kid needs to be adopted. That the kid is not loved or not being taken care of. You're willing to take someone kids away with out even knowing the situation.

It makes sense only to you and your take away the things I fear mindset. We lose a lot more money on corporate welfare, white collar crime and unjust wars than we do on welfare. How about eliminating those loses and helping raise kids instead of eliminating them. That would go a long ways further to reducing poverty than forcing people to be sterilized.

I tell you why because people also have the right to make mistakes in their lives. If they have to pay the point fine but what you're advocating through your own prejudices as highlighted in the term crack whore. Here's another reason. God only knows where I would be at right now and what I would have done to other people if I had not had kids and the kids changed and my life.

Get real they are not allowed to destroy the lives of children. We 've got plenty of laws against that. What you are advocating is preventing the lives of children by your own arbitrary standards.

Oh bullshit ShakeZula I can read this thread too you know and you've been presented with lots of logical answers. You just refuse to acknowledge them. Let me recap for you.

One it eliminates the individuals right to choose their own course. Two, you are alwful fuzzy on this yourself. Forced sterilization for all teenagers but then we'll sterilize adults too that you deem unfit. Who decides and by what criteria? Damn sure whether you admit it or not most of the "qualified parents are going to be white under the conditions of our current society and your plan would make sure it stayed that way. Three financial status and substance abuse does not make a parent unfit anymore than having money and not having a criminal background makes a person fit to be a parent. Four once we start where will it stop?

Yes they did. But are they really better off now. There are a couple things we over look, like continuing human rights violations, a million people killed for protesting, people executed and their internal organs sold to rich westerners. Not to mention not only the problems caused by the male/female ratio but also the population which is now becoming elderly, unable to work with not enough younger people to meet the growing demands.

Ok this explains a lot to me ShakeZula. There was no Utopian society in Brave New World. There were people controlled like zombies and pacified by taking drugs and barely functioning. They still had the sadness but no hope of happiness and everything was fake and phony.

Shit no wonder you come up with shit like this.

Thank you very much Smcaaphd every bit of this needed to be said and you saved me the time.

OK, ShakeZula, Smcaaphd was wrong about you not knowing about being poor but right about everything else.

Now I can match hard luck stories with you any day. In fact it is surprising how many things we share in common.

But here's what makes me want to flame you. You survived. You are productive. You have found love, and a family. You will contribute greatly. But all of a sudden you want to deprive everyone else that reminds you of your family of the same chance.

I've asked you this before. I don't care how tough you think you had it. Is the world better off with or without. Would you give back the life you have right now, to avoid the pain you went through.

 

Yes, they ARE better off, since similar problems existed then, too, if not worse ones. I don't overlook those things...but I also realize that change comes gradually. You can criticize China until you're blue in the face, but by almost any measure, they have come a long way in a positive direction in a fairly short time, and your criticisms probably won't hasten that process very much.

 

Yes but the thing with china is, there is NO middle class, you are either rich, or you are dirt poor, i have several friends, two from northern provinces and one from beijing and there is a huge difference between the rich and the poor.

 

https://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/E...165401~piPK:64165026~theSitePK:469382,00.html

http://www.gwu.edu/~econ270/Taejoon.html

 

Well Ok then. I didn't mean to fire you up. Alright, I probably did. Anyway I was thinking back on the Good Earth Days and Last Emperor and probably a lot of other stuff I didn't know to begin with.

Somewhere I here I also should have said I'm all for population control. But by the means you already stated; eduction and incentives and voluntary birth control. But not some crack pot scheme of forced sterilization at the hands of the Government I sure don't trust and didn't think ShakeZula did either.