It probably goes without saying that I would back 99% of your arguments here. I would say the role drugs play in the persons life is more important than its simple presence in their system. Other than that pretty spot on.

 

Do you have David Duke on speed dial?

 

What I find interesting is if people like Shake had Forced Sterilization in force before he was concieved, he would not have been born. The fact that he has made something of himself shoots a realy big hole in his own idea.

 

No it doesn't. It can happen, but I don't see that the ends justify the means. For everyone of me, there are perhaps hundreds who don't make it out.

-S-

 

I hope so because I think this is one of the most ignorant positions I've ever seen you take and I'd really like to wear you out over it.

Then it won't really work will it?

First there is no guarantee that people who meet your criteria will make good parents. Second, your criteria smacks of your prejudices. We're talking drug addicts right? I don't see you mentioning alcoholics in there. What kind of test do you have to know in advance to determine if the parents will be able to love their child?And we're talking about the same state and/or government that you just said is understaffed and overwhelmed keeping up with what they've got now. Your also talking about bureaucrats making decisions, about who is fit.

And how do we determine what it means to be financially able to care for a child. Do you have a minimum amount of income in mind? Would two people working for minimum wage be able to afford a child? Can they afford two on minimum wage or does the state step in and sterilize them again when the dip below some economic threshold.

How about moral Character? Shouldn't that count also? I mean what if someone isn't a drug addict, has a pretty good job, and no criminal record, but is also a liar and a cheat, and manipulative and verbally abusive. Do they get to have kids anyway.

And let's not forget those atheists that some people feel are dangerous to Children. Sterilizing atheists and perhaps homosexuals, and I'm sure you can support sterlizing Muslims would be a good idea in some people's eyes.

Now I can hear you saying that's not the criteria you set out but I think you have to admit that once the threshold is crossed it won't be just you who gets to decide the criteria.

I did it really didn't answer my concerns. You foster a very simple criteria that you believe would cure a lot of problems but you neglect the complexities involved with this idea. As I stated above it only addresses what you see as "unfit" to have and raise children, when there are a lot more factors to consider before we turn reproduction over to the state.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbler
It makes sense only to you and your take away the things I fear mindset. We lose a lot more money on corporate welfare, white collar crime and unjust wars than we do on welfare. How about eliminating those loses and helping raise kids instead of eliminating them. That would go a long ways further to reducing poverty than forcing people to be sterilized

Actually I see this as not solving problems but creating them and very dangerous ones at that. This puts the government in charge of life itself and I can't believe that someone who likes to think of himself as a libertarian who does not the government interfering in anything else can advocate for putting that same government in charge of human reproduction.

You completely miss my point here. What I am saying is that many people, myself included were fuck ups until they had children. That's what straightened them out and made them and their children productive members of society. And while you say that just because you have a dick you should not be able to fuck up an innocent life you are also saying it's ok to fuck up an innocent life if you are financially able, not using illegal drugs, and not getting caught committing criminal acts. See you're still crossing your fingers hoping for the best.

Yes destroying the lives of children does happen over and over again. But it also happens in those situations you claim are fit parents because they have a job don't do drugs and haven't been convicted of a crime. Let's take the new danger to children. Internet pedophiles. Who are these people? Drug addicted, unemployed career criminals? Not my a long shot. The majority are professional people including doctors, FBI agents, stock brokers, teachers and people who fit quite well within your criteria of this fit to have children.

Those are not emotional in the slightest. Those are real problems ShakeZula and again I point out to you that in almost all other instances the government cannot be trusted with doing anything right. You even said the social welfare system we have now is incapable of taking care of kids and putting them in foster care. But suddenly this same government and its bureaucrats are capable of establishing a criteria of what is a fit potential parent. And you would contend that this will be applied fairly to rich and poor alike. Can you show me one real world instance where that actually happens.

I don't even see how you can come up with that out of reading A Brave New World and can guarentee you that is not the accepted literary analysis of it. Don't you remember Soma (as actual drug my mommy used to give to me)? Remember the fear of being the slightest bit different from anyone else in your class? Remember the mind control from birth and the death houses where anyone old and dieing was kept out of sight? Yeah that sounds like Utopia to me.

And you still did not answer two really simple questions I asked you. Despite your childhood is the world better off with you than without you. And as of today would you be willing to give your life back rather than go through the suffering you did.

Now don't give me any crap about you mother not being fit to have children. From everything I've read so far, not just on this thread but ever since I've been on the forum your mother is no prize but I can guarantee you she has the edge on my mother.

I'm talking about you and your life. Would you rather have not been born at all?

 

This kid's adjustment problems will have to do more with the emotional immaturity/baggage of his sperm and egg donor than with being of mixed race.

 

We can play what if. What if the one that makes it, cures cancer or AIDS or what ever. Isn't the 99 that don't make it worth the risk?

 

Actually, I can vouch for that one. Everything Shake said about his mom is true, and that's not the half of it.

 

I hope you didn't think I was serious when I posted that.

 

Or, as Faulkner said, "men don't seduce women, women elect men".

 

I was musing about what Shake said earlier, and was thinking that it must make him very happy that he has the opportunity to give his children a better life than he had growing up.

 

I doubt it. The definition I posted was from Merriam-Webster online. There's nothing in it about the equal distribution of wealth.

 

I'm part of everyone and I didn't say anything like that. Neither did everyone else besides me. Just the people like you who read some story and make a snap judgement on what was actually an argument between a wife and husband.

If this is not a judgemental statement I have never seen one.

Oh I see you deserve to have kids but people who use drugs or belong to gangs don't. Did it say anywhere in the story that these parents are drug addicts or even gang members. It looks more like a cultural argument to me. But you're the judge I guess.

Where does it say these parents can't raise their child. It doesn't say they were drug addicts. At least the mother was employed and I can assume the father was also if you can assume they are drug addicted gang members.

And yes it was an opinion and a very judgmental one at that. You just automatically know that your are better then them don't you?

I love naked women and pictures of naked women and don't see a single thing wrong with that. But you know there are many people who think Pornography should be illegal and that people who look at it let alone participate in it are unfit to be parents.

I was just asking you how you felt about those people being willing to adopt your son because they think you are an unfit mother simply because you are a member of a porn forum and post sexy pictures of yourself. There are people that do believe that you know, just like there are people like you who think anyone who has anything to do with a gang or drugs is an unfit parent. I just wanted to know how you felt about that.

I think its fine all of us are here and that we are doing nothing wrong. But there are a lot of judgmental people who would disagree and think we are unfit parents and should be in jail.

PS And while you don't post naked pictures of yourself according to what I've read you do PM naked pictures of yourself and that still counts.

 

Leila I don't doubt the things ShakeZula has said about his mother being unfit for motherhood. I was just saying I think my mother was a little more unfit than his and still is. That's not the point. The point is if Shake's idea was actually put in place, I would not be here. And no matter how bad my mother was or how much hell she put me and my bother and sister through growing up today I'm real glad I'm here. And so are my kids who wouldn't be here either if ShakeZula's idea was a fact. And no matter how bad my mother was, my kids think I'm a great father and you know 20 years down the road I'll bet Little Shake feels exactly the same way about his father.

See its just not as simple as deciding if someone looks and acts like they are unfit to bring life into the world.

 

You can PM naked pictures?

 

Yes. Do you want me to send you some?

 

No, I want Lisa to send me some.

 

Its a good thing I was only bluffing otherwise I would be crushed. But while we're on the subject. Do you have any of you and will you send me some?

 

Are you conveniently forgetting that everyone took 'Soma'?

Wasn't that the universal happy drug?

 

I believe in what shake is saying, the whole overpopulation thing and world hunger play right into this. And why shouldnt we stop unfit people from rerpoducing and cuasing a the government to pick up where they left off down the road, where it not only becomes the governemnts problem but the taxpayers problems. In a country such as the US where the economy is already hurting and people dont have enough money as it is to do everyday things, why should people be forced to pay more becuase some prostitute or whore decided to have some children she cant handle and drops it off on the governments doormat making it everyone else problems. Why not take care o the issuse before the kids are born, and after reading through the posts i must say to TIGHT that it is not taking a life if the child has not even been a thought to cross through the parents mind. Forced sterilization is something i say could help with many issues accross the world, i also believe that it should be a mandatiory vacination for school.
SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT FIT TO REPRODUCE, PERIOD!