I think so...but it's hard to judge them harshly for seeking a more rewarding or fulfilling life. I just hate to see people so completely subvert their own critical thinking skills, if they had any to begin with.

 

Isolate a bunch of people in a enclave with a charismatic leader promising eternal life and almost anything can happen.

It's happened with entire countries, in prewar Germany, Japan and Italy (to a smaller degree), masses were convinced that their way, was the way of the world and that they would triumph as the chosen people.

More recently it happened here in the US, without open forums and the light of truth, where would we be??

Mass hypnosis? Mass fear? Mass hysteria? All have roots in unfullfilled beliefs.

 

I saw something on that on ESPN one day a few years back, about Jones's son who had traveled out of Jonestown to play ball with their official team against some college, think it was UNC but I can't remember, and his family was still in Jonestown and all died while he was playing ball.

I also saw a movie on it. That was fucked up, and that's really all I can say about it, it was just fucked up.


Oh, and if you want proof that some people will believe any bullshit somebody speaks if they do it the right way, look at all of the people eating out of the palms of the bullshitters' hands here on the forum, even when most of, if not all of what they say is pure bullshit.

 

they were all fools. if you want to be a mindless sheep by all means be one. but don't expect pity from the likes of me.

Gullible = Stupid

 

I read a very long book about Jim Jones and People's Temple..It was over a year ago so I don't remember a lot (including the book's exact title!:excited but one thing I took away from it was that Jones was a master manipulator..

Still, I always find it mystifying trying to understand what makes a person become a member of a cult in the first place..I just can't see how they reconcile themselves with what they're giving up (a normal life, job, money, some measure of free will) based on what they get in return..in this case, a life filled with hard labor in a shitty compound in a third-world dirthole! and eventually a sordid death by mass suicide..

And it's hard for me to imagine anyone being so naive as not to be able to see the double standard between the way they themselves are being made to live as opposed to the way the typical cult leader lives..

The only conclusion I can draw is that these were broken, damaged people who because of whatever problems they had in their own lives were particularly ripe for manipulation..It makes me angry too to think of anyone being so victimized by another person..It's one of the beefs I have against religion because although cults are not representative of mainstream religion, still they always adopt a base line of pseudo-religious dogma...

I didn't watch this particular program but I've seen others on the topic..

 

a religion is a socially accepted cult

 

Jones fit all the stereotypes. He was an evangelist even as a child (along with studying Marx, Lenin, Stalin, et al). But he was also able to ingratiate himself with the creme de la creme of mainstream Bay Area politics, including the likes of Willie Brown, George Moscone, Harvey Milk, Mervyn Dymally...he understood that if you scratch their backs, they'll be obliged to scratch yours.

 

What's not been mentioned here, is the psychological aspects of cults and leaders in general, be they religious, or political (Hitler for example).

In the case of cults, people often forget that the individual is slowly recruited, by other people saying what they want to hear - sympathising and empathising with their viewpoint. Once an emotional bond is forged with the group, the brainwashing techniques can be applied. The person is mentally and emotionally "broken down" and then slowly built back up again with "love and support" from the group. During this time, they are isolated from family and friends, so they become reliant on the group instead. By being part of the group, their sense of normality and familiarity becomes attached to this instead, however odd it might seem to someone outside of it.

(These techniques, interestingly, are also used in the Military to break down new "individually minded" recruits, and then rebuild them as soldiers).

In terms of leaders we are all taught to conform to higher authorities from a young age, "because they know best." Parents, teachers, the police, church leaders, royalty, politicians and so on. When a charismatic leader speaks to what you feel, and believe, and plays on your sympathies and emotions, he or she can swiftly manipulate for good or evil intent, many people of a like mind... or even persuade people to be of a like mind, through social conformity. That's how Hitler was able to murder millions, and how Martin Luther King was able to unite the black community in the 60's.

And it's interesting to watch social conformity at work. If a popular person dislikes someone lower down the ladder, other people will join in, in disliking them. The person will be attacked, ostracised, punished, and the re-inforcement of "leader=conform" continues. At school. In a street gang. In a cult. On a message board. Social conformity... it affects us all. (Yes, even you, Inky )

Really interesting topic Stumbly, by the way!

Bye for now - Fluffy McNoo.

 

but you have to admit that the weak minded are caught in the snare so much easier

 

Afraid of being seen as an emotional person Incubus?

 

Very well said Fluffy.

Remember, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

 

I can see your point, those people who act with a sheeplike nature and follow blindly, certainly are vulnerable, to anything the world throws at them, from prostitution rings, to being a streetgang member. But there's "weak minded" and there's "weak minded" though, Inky. If you've just been through an incredibly emotionally traumatic experience (loss of a close family member say), or perhaps lived with a family who used and abused you, that may make you more vulnerable to emotional manipulation by a "caring group", but it certainly doesn't make you weak minded under normal circumstances. They simply play on vulnerabilities and empathies we all have - including you.

Everyone, at some level, has a desire to be liked, admired, and paid attention to. Even trolls do, they just enjoy the attention paid to them, in a negative way, and even the most hated troll, usually has a friend or two quietly talking to them in PM. That desire to be liked, to "fit in" is simply skilfully manipulated by a carefully constructed system of rewards and punishments, that parallel a lifetime of social experience. It can be done so subtly, and over such a period of time, that people often aren't even aware it's happening to them... until it's too late.

Read up on brainwashing and subliminal manipulation, sometime, if you haven't already Inky. It's an interesting subject.

Bye for now - Fluffy McNoo.

 

me? Afraid? :lol:

Kimiko's thread....the triumph of intellect comes to mind.

why is intelligence so easily disregarded? too many excuses are made on the behalf of stupidity. so you've lost a loved one. its ok to be distraught, its not ok to let your grief overcome your common sense and judgment. I have always liked the saying 'mind over matter' it is such a prolific proverb. the human mind is a marvel of evolution and is capable of so much if utilized correctly. both Jim Jones and his supporters were born with equal capacity to learn. he simply figured out a way to out smart them and there by manipulate them to his will. he used his brain, they didn't. in the wild they are prey. the weak ones are eaten. we need to weed out stupidity and stop making sympathetic excuses for it.

 

Newsflash: The majority of society is weak-minded, yourself included. This forum is a pretty damn good example of that.

I try to not say anything to anybody who's just full of shit or bullshitting or talking out of their ass so that I don't burst their bubble, but seriously, it's getting old.

 

very true...and having gotten himself in good with those same mainstream Bay Area politicians served to forestall a great deal of negative publicity which might otherwise have been a major issue for Jones in the time just before the big Guyana exodus..The truth was, a lot of members had already had enough and were beginning to form a core group of defectors, but mainstream media hesitated to come out in a "big guns" kind of way against someone who still had the support (on paper at least) of such influential people..

Jones was clever all right...

 

Actually I agree with you, but sometimes I hold back against stating it so strongly because people that are on the fence will tend to disregard what you're actually saying when you put it so bluntly like that..

 

what the hell are you talking about? you seem to think you are the authority on people's character around here, like you are some kinda FBI profiler. i've told you before, what you think of me doesn't matter so save your typing finger the stress....Mmmkay?

putting it bluntly is what i'm good at. there is almost no difference between a cult and a religion except the number of followers.

 

It's ignorant dumbasses like you spewing this bullshit that creates so much fucking hate in the world. and don't steal my mmmmmkay....mmmkay?

When every single argument you or any of the other bullshitters here makes is a textbook example of a fallacy, every single one, it's pretty obvious that either you're full of shit, or you never show that you're not.

 

i just farted

 

See, then that means Inky couldn't be full of shit.