I'm with you there is something scary about this that I'm not sure I understand but I think at least part of my fear is that they may be right. Like you I can't imagine myself following someone like Jones. But my fear is neither did some of the people who did follow him.

First thank you for noting the similarities to the Manson Family. I can see those but that is a better description I think of how I felt about the killings at the airport. They were over killed sort of like the Manson murders.

But I want to go a little further. We can look at the people in Jonestown and the Manson Family but at the same time the Moonies were flourishing and did so for decades afterward. That makes me thing there is more to this than what we might think because so many people and different kinds of people seem to get entraped.

Like I just told Kimiko I didn't realize it until she said it but that is what I meant by the kind of killing the People's Temple Members inflicted at the airport.

See here again Jones managed to take in people who are intelligent and strong willed. Maybe not into his fold but at least enough for them to think he was OK instead of a madman.

This is what I think I'm getting at Fluffy. My fear is that perhaps we are all much more susceptable to this kind of thing then we might think. Its much easier to see in such an incredible tragedy like Jonestown or Waco, but is it something we all do to a certain extent, like with celebraties, politicians, heros, even here.

I agree with this. I think it might be a huge mistake to think only weak minded or sheep like people are vulnerable to something like this. It bothers me more than just a little to actually look at this because I have always been of the mind that something like this could never happen to me.

Now I wonder if we not only underestimate how vunerable all of us might be but perhaps more importantly underestimate the power of chrasmatic leaders.

No offense Incubus but I think this is a misconception and perhaps a dangerous one at that. There is every indication that some highly intelligent people also end up in these cults. So I don't think believeing sympathatic excuses are the problem. Instead I think there is a lot about this sort of thing that we don't really understand yet. But I strongly suspect that even though I've always thought like you that these things happen to the weak and stupid, there is a lot more to it then that and we may not yet know the real answers.

 

I'm afraid I have to take exception to this Baller. This forum is anything but weak minded or a bunch of followers. There's just no evidence of that and lots of evidence to the contrary when we look at the number of debates and fights we have around here. As an example it is very common on this forum for several members to be in strong disagreement on one thread and total agreement on another thread sometimes even at the same time. That just does not happen in a group of followers. It only happens with people who are independent and strong minded and strong willed.

I just think we should note that and give credit where credit is due.

 

What I was saying, is that just like in society, any person on here who preaches bullshit emphatically enough, or is good enough at manipulating people and playing to them, can have a lot of "followers" thinking said person is intelligent and everything they say is fact.

My definition of being weak-minded is not thinking for yourself, and even a lot of the people who contest things so emphatically are weak-minded, and the people who believe their bullshit without question are even more weak-minded.

There are only a handful of individuals on this site that try to participate in discussion, and only maybe a quarter of the people on this site are individuals, if even. You could probably name them all and not take up more than a few lines in a post, if even.

 

I really don't want to argue with you about this but I see a connection to what we have been discussing about leaders and followers and cults. And so I think we could explore it.

I really don't see people getting away with preaching bullshit. In fact I have never been in a place where there is more demand for sources and documentation of facts and ideas.

So can you name any such leader(s) on this forum?

I don't dispute either you definition of weak minded or that people contest things emphatically even though they are obviously wrong. But I do disagree that is a characteristic of this forum. My observation is the opposite. People who are emphatically wrong get called on it and often pulverized.

But I've also admitted on this thread that perhaps we really don't see some things so could you give me some examples.

I just don't see this and guess I would challenge you to name them. As an example there are 15 or 16 people on this thread alone. They all seem to be independent thinkers to me and no one seems to be just going along with what other people said.

We can't even agree among ourselves if its weak minded people that fall into cults, or the charisma of the leaders, both or all of those plus other things we don't even understand. We can't even agree if we would be susceptible to it ourselves.

And this is just one thread. There are many other members and many other threads that would have these same characteristics.

 

Stumbler, after only taking an English 101 course, a HS/Psychology 101 course, Sociology 101 course, a History 101 course, etc, and paired with my own common sense, logic, intellect, and things I've learned over the years, I can safely say that a lot of what is claimed here is infact bullshit, and as far as the English 101 goes, that is where I learned about fallacies, and the people I'm referring to throw around fallacies like nobody's business. Anybody who has taken any college course could come into this forum and see these dudes are full of shit. Nothing they say would hold up anywhere other than this forum. What I'm saying is, if somebody who hasn't even had that much higher education(I mean seriously, community college isn't exactly the same as a college course) can see this, then anybody who has been through more college than me, has learned more than me, etc can definitely see this. These people represent everything that is wrong with the world, because everything they do is for show and for "image", and because of that, we can't ever intelligently discuss anything.

You want examples? aight, I'll give you a few: Shake, Incubus, SuperMurk, SilverLycan, pimpurmom, just to name a few who every argument they make is a textbook example of a fallacy. At times, they can make sense and aren't full of shit, but it's very rare. They never present an argument, they just argue. They either twist your words and point fingers, do and say things and twist it around and say you did and said them, mock and insult anybody who has different views than them, or every statment they make, they have to try to come off looking or sounding intelligent or right or whatever. Quite simply, they throw hissy fits enough that eventually everybody believes they are right. They act very similarly to cult leaders.

And the individuals? Trumpet, Old Tool, and a bunch of others, most of them part of the "old guard" from when we actually used to intelligently discuss things here. There are a bunch who are objective a lot of times(yourself included) but then other times can be just as bad. Trumpet, Old Tool, and the others whose names I seem to be forgetting right now however, I have never once seen them not be objective.

 

Seriously now, I was a cult leader for like, a week. Then we got bored and played on my neighbors Genesis.

 

That's an interesting viewpoint, Inky. It suggests that anyone who is drawn in by a cult, or a charismatic leader, is somehow stupid. You're missing the point, however. The people who do this, are subtle. They speak to your feelings about things. They mirror your beliefs, empathise with your view of the world, and offer support and friendship in a group who's worldview reflects your own, which is all the more tempting, if no-one else agrees with, or accepts your view of the world.

Currently, I've observed that your world view on here of late has become increasingly anti-social and bitter. Your thread count has dropped considerably. You joke around considerably less. Instead you make cold, cutting comments, that reflect a lack of empathy/anger with people around here at the moment.

So here's an interesting thought; based on this, you'd be an ideal candidate for a terrorist organisation revolving around a anarchist/nihilist viewpoint. Such people would reflect your contempt for the weak, your desire to remove that - vague - guideline of the stupid, the sheep, the unthinking. They'd feed your contempt of others, your lack of empathy, and slowly mould your worldview. How far would you get ensnared in such an organisation? Maybe you wouldn't. But be honest, wouldn't it just be so tempting to kill a few of those mindless sheep you so despise? So easy... and it's not like anyone would care, really. Least of all you, right? Hell, the world would be a better place for a few less of them... more resources. Less pollution. Less idiots to deal with.

That's not my opinion, but it is the siren song lure for every crime against humanity committed, from vigiliantism, to World War II. There's a good reason, for doing what we do. Based on how you interact here, you already have views that tend toward the extreme, currently.

And it's a short leap, from extreme... to extremist.

Bye for now - Fluffy McNoo.

 

Right on the money Fluffy.

I think a big problem is the fact that people only think of cults in a certain way, that they are all like Jim Jones, Heavens Gate, etc, and don't realize that there are many different versions of a cult and of brainwashing, manipulation, and mind control. It's so easy to think of everything as being exactly alike and putting things in boxes, and cult leader types thrive on this.

 

I'm mildly surprised no one has brought up scientology in this thread yet, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

That or christian abortion clinic bombers, or muslim extremist suicide bombers, or the like.

Intelligence is no defense against your beliefs, and if someone believes they are in the right by blowing someone up or drinking poison or whatever then that's what they're going to do.

There's a saying:

The Believer is happy, the doubter is wise.

and something else about how people who believe in something get things done in that direction while people who doubt take a little longer to interpret the correct course of action.

I of course butchered that last phrase, but I imagine you get the idea.

 

Let me point out your fallacies here Baller and there are several (and no I don't have to name them they will be obvious as soon as I point them out.

Many if not most of the people on this forum are already college educated, hold degrees and disagree with you on this. So the only way this could be true is for you to have learned more in just one semester of college then they did in years and that you would have to have much more common sense and intelligence then they do which is something you surely have not demonstrated. So this is simply not true Baller and when you contend it is you become what you criticized in the first place; an emphatic bullshitter.

You are actually doing right now exactly what you accuse and condemn. You do not present an argument here, nor any facts, nor any thinking logic. You simply make as unsupported series of statements.

You do the exact same thing here. You accuse others of what you are actually doing and worse try and contend they (and not you) is what's wrong with the world.

The fallacy here is that this really has nothing to do with naming what amounts a cult leader with followers on this forum. It is only your own personal perception but is not and cannot be supported with evidence or facts. They're just guys you're pissed off at.

Your fallacy in this statement is you make several accusations that have nothing to do with the questions you were asked and then try to tie in a false statement at the end to pretend that you are addressing the question. This is quite senseless.

And your final fallacy is this statement proves my point not yours which was this forum has a lot of weakminded people who follow cult like leaders. I think what you really need to take is a critical thinking class Baller because you are really not very good at it at this point in your life.

PS For another example of you actually doing what you falsely accuse others of doing just go look at the Whats the hurry thread where you are arguing against several members out of complete ignorance versus documented historical facts.

PPSS If there was ever any single member who I thought developed a following for awhile it would have been you, but as I pointed out in the beginning of this discussion this forum has too many strong and independent thinking people for that to grow or even last.

 

Now that you mention it I am really surprised no one has mentioned Scientology and am very glad you did. We lack the obvious charismatic leader in Scientology but there was one at one time and all the other cult like beliefs and behaviors to apply.

So again we appear to be looking at something perhaps all of us could be susceptible to if we encountered it in the right circumstances.

 

Scientology seems a bit different, considering they don't murder people in the streets or commit mass suicides.

 

But... But they worship a piglizard from space.

 

I know some people would disagree, and contend some of their beliefs concerning medicine and surgery amounted to murder. But all the elements are there and perhaps the only reason they haven't killed or committed mass suicide is because their leader has not told them to. Yet.

Well that's at least a step ahead of the Atheist God. The Flying Spagetti Monster. (just sort of an inside forum battle joke).

 

You didn't point out any fallacies stumbler. You just talked shit.

These people I named are like cult leaders because they expect everybody to take everything that they say at face value without question, and if somebody questions them, they can't handle it, because it's all about image and power for them.


Anybody who used to belong here, left, and came back, has and would still say the same thing. I know people who have left because they were tired of dealing with those immature overgrown children's bullshit, and I know people who have said privately to me that I'm right and they agree with me about these people.


Now go look up the list of fallacies(I'm sure you can google it), and then show me where mine are, because I could go through every single post of those I named and infact a lot more people, and point out every single fallacy, and infact did(remember that thread? where you all got that word you love using so much from?). I could also point out how The Group Dynamic(Sociology 101 type shit) is in full effect around here. I could also probably analyze almost everybody here to a T, and infact have done these things a lot, but it just isn't fucking worth it anymore.


Lastly, I don't fucking want followers. I want people to think for themselves. THAT is the difference between people like me, and people like them.

 

I'm done with you here Baller. This is just empty, mindless, blow hard rhetoric that is senseless to continue. I have more than proven my point that you falsely accuse this forum of having cult like leaders and sheep like followers and that's good enough for me.

 

OH SHIT there goes baller with that word again, FALLACY the only word he learned in his JR college semester,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he went on a tirade awhile back with that word.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

You can say something as many times as you want, but that doesn't make it true.

I really don't give a shit if you're "done with me". I feel no need to argue over "who won the argument", because while I explained myself and gave you the examples you asked for, you did nothing but talk shit.

Such is the way we argue points nowadays apparently

 

​

 

I was going to say....not yet. Fortunately for the long-term well-being of scientologists, L. Ron Hubbard is dead....but if the cult were seriously threatened, I wouldn't put it past their current leadership to pull off a mass suicide, and I definitely don't think they'd be shy about murdering someone. They have a vindictive streak that has been thoroughly documented.