was just something I read..I didn't see the movie so I don't know

Just thought maybe that's where Deidre was going with it when she suggested I should watch the movie, because otherwise the comment made no sense in the context of the discussion..:excited:

 

You illustrate one of the key problems very nicely, bladeway. What we have is a "system" in which the wealthy can afford excellent health care, and the poor cannot. Everyone who can afford health insurance, and those who receive health coverage through their employers, are entirely comfortable with the status quo. The wealthy have no incentive to deal with this problem, and the poor are powerless to bring about change.

That's the way it IS, not the way it SHOULD BE, in my humble opinion. I'm one of those people who has quality health insurance. But it is not in my or the country's best interests to perpetuate the existence of an underclass that does not have access to even basic health care. That is what European countries have recognized for many years, and what the U.S. has so far failed to recognize.

But as Bob Dylan and Stumbler are fond of saying, the times, they are a'changin'. My guess is that the way this will eventually play out is that employers will drop their health insurance programs, because that's the only way they can remain viable, and everyone will be paying for the coverage they get. When that happens, there will be a huge new constituency for nationalized health coverage. We're not far from critical mass now...we were obviously a long way from it when Hillary Clinton was working on the problem in the 1990s.

 

In other news, CNN is reporting that Obama will nominate Tom Daschle to be Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS). Apparently, the plan is that Daschle will also be the administration's point man on moving forward on universal health care.

Good choice.

 

Forgive my ignorance here, I just read Wiki about him and the info there left me wondering why him for Secretary of Health and Human Services. Perhaps you know more of him and would enlighten me.

 

Kimi, I also illustrated my opinion that the federal gov't is incompetant and couldn't piss in a giant bucket using a telescopic scope. I also illustrated my belief that states, not nations are better prepared to handle the health of their citizens.

You should focus your inteligent energies on your state representatives, your editors, talk-show hosts, and local forums to bring about change. Do you realize California is larger than most all european states, and could probably do a better jon of providing health care for all it's citizens than anyone?

Yet you and all liberals seem to always inflate the effectiveness of our federal gov't. Your approach is wrong, national health care would be wasteful and just as ineffective as the health care our veterans get. Is that the kind of health care you want for americans?

Who knows if we are reaching a critical mass, or if things are changing for the better or worse. Certainly a larger percentage of people have health insurance now than they did just after WWII.

I do know that putting the federal gov't and Tom Daschle in charge of everyone's health is a very stupid idea.

Are you certain the federal gov't can handle this? I would like you to tell me one thing it has administered that has worked and worked well. Please build your case that the federal gov't is the tool to use for this, and is a better tool than the states. I firmly believe each of the fifty states is much better prepared to take care of its citizens than thieves we regularly elect to represent us in D.C.

 

Well, if you won't give one inch to socialism, then I highly suggest you never say the Pledge of Allegiance again, since it was written by a Christian Socialist. And if you or any of your family or your friends have corporate health insurance through your work, I demand you stop it and pay for your own health insurance. Because really, when you get down to it, health insurance through work is just a redistribution of wealth. You're taking the fact that you have a large number of people who all buy from the same provider so that you can receive discounts, and everyone pays in a little which then goes towards covering everyone in the company. Even if you don't have any major medical expenses, someone in the company will and your contributions back into the system help pay for that. So really since you are so against socialism, you should just go directly to the insurance companies and buy your insurance completely on your own, with no subsidies from your company or other people. That's the Capitalist, Free Market Way!

Deidre, you are truly one of the most ignorant, clueless, brain-washed, and completely assholish people I have ever had the bad luck to encounter. Your brain is filled with ignorance based sound-bites and hatred. You are so stupid that you don't even know how much you don't know and worse still, you are content with that and don't even care to learn. You know nothing of economics, foreign relations, politics, etc., other that what you've digested from other ignorant asswipes like yourself and then you come on here and have the gall to act all high and mighty like you actually know what you're talking about. It's completely stupid people like you that has caused nearly the entire rest of the world to ridicule and hate Americans. I'm thankful that it finally appears that retards like you are loosing their stranglehold on the country and finally allowing it to move forward again.

 

Hello! pffawg9999, you must be a piece of **** too! Thought so. Who the **** are you to preach to me on anything? I understand how corporate corruption works and how the insurance companies play their little games. Cry all you want. I care for America, not Venezuela??? Where is this little playground of a world where everyone gets along and all your needs are taken care of? Yeah Obama is going to fix all that? Zoo tickets anyone? Palin would of but you mindless scum are like rats following your little pied piper, run! Don't make me laugh you silly little boy, or man? which is it? I know nothing but I know one thing, I surely know more than YOU. Few on this site have any clues of an education. Thank You again for your compliments, their are a number of assholes in the Sunshine State, you pffawg9999 being one of them. Good Day Sir. Dkr

 

there are a number of assholes in the Sunshine State, you pffawg9999 being one of them. Good Day Sir. Dkr

:excited:

 

Yes, I am a piece of cool, but you're not one too.

Me? Oh I'm just a person with a brain who knows how to use it, which makes me more of an expert on virtually anything and allows me to tell you how incredibly stupid and ignorant you are.

Right. Because you've shown such an incredible depth of understanding in all your previous conversations. Sure.

I have yet to see one single one of your posts that displays that you have the faintest idea of what you're talking about. And most people will certainly back me up on that statement. And you're so damn ignorant that you don't even understand how ignorant you are. You're too dumb to know you're so dumb, in other words.

I'm not crying. And I care for America too. Why are you bringing up Venezuela? Anyway, in addition to caring for America, unlike the selfish little short sided bitch you are, I also care for humanity, because we're all on this planet and in this life together. So while I have no problem with America defending herself and using force when needed, the best option would be to avoid the situation that caused it to begin with, and that usually comes about by trying to work with other countries.

I don't think a single person here actually thinks that Obama is going to fix everything. What I do know is that he's going to try to fix as much as he can, and that it will be difficult, and that he has more of a chance of succeeding than McCain would have.

Um, that statement right there displays that you are certifiably insane and a danger to yourself and others. Palin is a retard and the only way she would have fixed everything is by causing WWIII in which we are all destroyed by nukes and left the planet in the charge of the roaches.

What, too stupid to read my profile?

Truer words were never spoken.

Then you know nothing at all because you have shown repeatedly that you barely have a grasp on reality and I have shown plenty of times that I know quite a lot about a variety of subjects which you are unable to even comprehend. If you want to try to have a battle of intellect with me to show me that you know more than me, then bring it, bitch. I'll decimate you.

And you have no clues whatsoever.

Yes, there are a bunch of assholes in the Sunshine State, and luckily the intelligent ones still were able to get Obama elected in spite of those assholes. And that bunch of assholes in the Sunshine State is one of the reasons I've just moved away from there.

 

I can understand how you might view the federal government as incompetent after witnessing the past eight years. But the past eight years are not representative. Conservatives hold as an article of faith that government doesn't work, and when they're in power, they do their best to prove it, evidently.

But the fact is that health care IS best delivered at the national level. Health care doesn't stop at state lines. And there are, of course, economies of scale involved -- the larger the pool, the less the burden falls on any one individual.

You can certainly criticize the VA and Medicare if you like, and they merit at least some criticism inevitably...but the main complaint I have about them is simply that they're both underfunded, which is not the fault of the way the programs are managed.

Having said all that, I have very little difficulty with individual states enacting their own universal health care systems, and I have actively worked on such a proposal here in California.

 

Yes, there are a bunch of assholes in the Sunshine State, and luckily the intelligent ones still were able to get Obama elected in spite of those assholes. And that bunch of assholes in the Sunshine State is one of the reasons I've just moved away from there.[/quote]

What a sorry ass you are!, i really mean it you silly little man.:excited: Keep believing what you believe and i will do the same, how about that ok? :excited: Dkr... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCAdPnisc6E&feature=related

 

I view the incoming government as largely subversive and dangerous to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Clinton did such a fine job after eight years, didn't he? Health care is not best delivered at the national level as some bureaucrats on this forum think. More government is always better? whatever. Which is it? national or state? You can't have it both ways? Will you excuse me I have to go spin some straw into gold. :excited: Dkr

 

Then you know nothing at all because you have shown repeatedly that you barely have a grasp on reality and I have shown plenty of times that I know quite a lot about a variety of subjects which you are unable to even comprehend. If you want to try to have a battle of intellect with me to show me that you know more than me, then bring it, bitch. I'll decimate you.

This gets my vote for post of the hour, yeah, sorry I forgot you were so smart and superior. I will stay out of your way. Dkr...

 

The difference between what pffawg9999 believes and what you believe is he can back up his beliefs with facts while all you can do is spout dogmatic, reactionary, racist bullshit.

Right, George Bush turns the US into a fascist police state for the wealtht and you're worried Barack Obama will injure out pursuit of life liberty and pursuit of happiness. What a joke Deidre because you already seem like such a HAPPY person.

And funny you should mention the job Clinton did. Because yes we had a budget surplus. Our national debt was half of what it is now and wall street and businesses were booming and unemployment was at its lowest level in decades. You're such a mindless twit you walk right into facts like this and don't even know it.

As usual you last statements don't even make sense in the context of the discussion but that's ok we're quite used to your inability to think ratioinally.

No you won't Deidre dear because part of your rather unique stupidity is your compulsiveness that makes it impossible for you to shut up and not make a fool of yourself.

 

I thought Kimiko started a good thread. It has become nothing but a bunch of people insulting each other and spouting off about everything else. Why the fuck don't you get back on track ? ? ?

I am Canadian, and over 65, so I get a lot of benifits from our health plan. Example: After I pay about $120.00 per year for Rx, everything else is $6.11 per Rx. [Which are for a 3 month supply of medication.] It costs about $275.00 per month to keep me alive. Do the math ! ! I have also had a quad bypass at no charge.

Because my income is below a certain level I pay no premiums. My spouse pays for OHIP [ONTARIO HOSPITAL INSURANCE PLAN] However her costs are minimal. Nobody pays the kind of premiums you do or your employers do. Yes taxes would go up, but you wouldn't notice it because you would save a ton of money on health premiums.

Everybody gets the same care. Unfortunately wait times are long if it is not an emergency. Hospitals are short of MRI machines. Doctors are in short supply, and do not make the kind of bucks your's do but they seem to be happy. True, some of our doctors have moved south for the bigger bucks. Here our doctors decide who gets what care, not profit driven Insurance companies.

If you nationalized your insurance companies, adopted the Canadian plan with no separate plans, and worked the bugs out later everyone would be covered. Yes it would take years to tweak it to a better system, but it would be running. Let's face it if you left it up to your politicians to come up with a plan everybody on this forum would be gone and maybe their children too.
Twenty years from now they would still be debating what to call it.

Politicians couldn't organize a gang fuck on a Russian fishing trawler.

I now await the deep thinkers [that is a compliment] like Stumbler or Kimiko to get all over my case. And before, Deidre, you decide to attack "Fuck off, bitch"

 

Thanks for trying to re-rail this discussion (good luck with that, we tend to be an unruly bunch). But more importantly thanks for your comments on Canada's health care system. It tends to be demonized down here in the states and its good to hear from someone who actually uses it.

There are serious problems with our health care system, and especially as has already been pointed out on this thread (buried between the insults somewhere) its unfair and far more expensive then it needs to be due to that unfairness.

 

Show me these facts???, Stumbler again you are nothing but hot air. I am happy with my life, what don't you understand Stumbler? That I don't see the world like you or Kimiko or pffawg999? That I have beliefs and morals. I believe in life. Such a bad thing, isn't it? Get over it already, I will never change my convictions. Racist? you show me Stumbler! That is all you got? "change we can believe in". BS just like you. Dkr....

 

FU 2 :excited::rose:

 

Yes, let's talk about Clinton you little boy Blue. The only reason everyone was celebrating and having a good time during the great reign of William Jefferson Clinton was because everyone on Wall Street and the banking community were cooking their books. Making wall street numbers every quarter was all the rage regardless of the corruption. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Do you get it, good. Did you grow up in a glass bubble? Sounds like it. When the terrorists attacked the twin towers the first time and then attacked our embassy in Sudan, what did Clinton do?...nothing. He lied on national television about Monica Lewinsky. Please Stumbler, you are the one with no argument, only name calling. The pied piper is calling you, better go run to him. Dkr

 

HMMMM , why do i believe this , but i wont hold the blowjobs against him