That is not a relevant fact, the population density of Canada is very similar to the US density within 100 miles of the mutual border. If you consider that the population density of the US Mid-west is as low as the Canadian agricultural areas, your argument loses traction rapidly.

The truly relevant fact is that Canada spends less per capita on health care than the US, the article is one of many explanations of why that is.

 

Well, folks, just when you thought the arguments from conservatives against health care reform in the U.S. couldn't get any crazier, now comes Gun Owners of America President Larry Pratt, arguing that health care reform is going to make it more difficult for us to....wait for it.....BUY GUNS!!

Vote “NO” on Anti-gun ObamaCare!

November 19, 2009

Dear Senator:

On behalf of over 300,000 law-abiding American gun owners, I am writing to ask you to vote against cloture on the motion to proceed to health care.

As a result of the mandates in the legislation, this bill will most likely dump Americans’ gun-related health data into a government database that was created in section 13001 of the stimulus bill. This includes any firearms-related information your doctor has gleaned . . . or any determination of PTSD, or something similar, that can preclude you from owning firearms.

Moreover, the special “wellness and prevention” programs (inserted by Section 1001 of the bill as part of a new Section 2717 in the Public Health Services Act) would allow the government to offer lower premiums to employers who bribe their employees to live healthier lifestyles -- and nothing within the bill would prohibit rabidly anti-gun HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius from decreeing that “no guns” is somehow healthier.

Again, I urge you to vote NO on the anti-gun ObamaCare. GOA will score a vote for cloture and for final passage as anti-gun actions.

Sincerely,

Larry Pratt
Executive Director

http://www.hillbillyreport.org/diar...-shoot-down-health-care-reform-ready-aim-fire

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

Guns are definitely a health related issue. People who defend themselves against crime live longer, folks who hunt for game have healthier lifestyles.

Liberals hate guns, liberals love socialized medicine, seems like logical extension.

 

There is a difference between praise and an ambivalent appreciation.

 

How will owning or not owning a gun improve your health?

 

And you really believe health care reform is all part of a nefarious plot to take away your guns?

You guys' paranoia knows no bounds. Get help.

 

Well, not owning guns might save them from shooting their dicks off....

 

Not at all logical. What is the cost to your present health system of gun related injuries?

Well yes it might, I understand the arguement that if you are suffering from serious depression having a gun around might make it easier to kill yourself, but using that analogy you can argue to ban tall buildings, cars, rope and so on.


I posted my thoughts and experiences of why you need health care reform so I will now try to refrain from putting anything else in this thread. Both sides seem to be entrenched in their ideals and no amount of evidence is going to sway them, but I still support Kimi's arguement and not Tenguy's.

 

Your statement implies that you think the Obama Administration really IS trying to take away people's guns via health care reform.

Is there anything gun owners won't believe, if guys like Larry Pratt tell them so?

 

I wasn't arguing for or against gun ownership as it doesn't effect me, I was trying to say if you are depressed a gun isn't good to have around, but neither is a tall building. There will be always ways to kill yourself therefore taking the gun away doesn't lessen the risk.

 

Fuck, fuck, fuck broke my promise twice now, ok now I will exercise restraint.

 

The cost of firearm deaths in the United States: reduced life expectancies

By Lemaire, Jean Publication: Journal of Risk and Insurance
Date: Thursday, September 1 2005

The United States remains far behind most other affluent countries in terms of life expectancy. One of the possible causes of this life expectancy gap is the widespread availability of firearms and the resulting high number of U.S. firearm fatalities: 10,801 homicides in 2000.

The European Union experienced 1,260 homicides, Japan only 22. Using multiple decrement techniques, I show that firearm violence shortens the life of an average American by 104 days (151 days for white males, 362 days for black males)...

Several factors have been proposed to account for the relatively low U.S. life expectancy compared to peer countries, including higher infant mortality, income inequality, and lack of a strong primary care system (Starfield, 2000)...

The World Health Organization...mentions high levels of violence, especially homicides, in comparison with other industrialized countries...the majority of violent deaths in the United States is firearm-related...

In 2000, 28,663 people in the United States died from firearm injury: 16,586 from suicide, 10,801 from homicide, 776 unintentional, 270 from legal intervention, 230 undetermined (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2003)...

These figures suggest that the widespread availability of guns in the United States increases the number of homicides and suicides due to firearms. Cook (1981) estimates that every 10,000 guns sold are involved in about 3,000 robberies and 100 homicides...

The average American loses 103.6 days of life due to firearm deaths, including 45.9 days lost to homicides and 52.3 days to suicides...

In countries where guns are not readily available, is there a substitution process, where individuals commit suicide and kill each other with other weapons?

In the case of homicides, several international comparisons demonstrate that the substitution effect is minimal or nonexistent...

Sloan et al. (1988) compare the crime rates in Seattle and Vancouver, two similar cities in terms of population, climate, income per household, poverty, and unemployment rates...an estimated 41 percent of Seattle inhabitants own a gun compared to only 12 percent of Vancouver inhabitants.

The authors find that the two cities essentially experience the same rates of burglary, robbery, homicides, and assaults without a gun. However, in Seattle the rate of assault with a firearm is 7 times higher than in Vancouver, and the rate of homicide with a handgun is 4.8 times higher. The authors conclude that the availability of handguns in Seattle increases the assault and homicide rates with a gun, but does not decrease the crime rates without guns, and that restrictive handgun laws reduce the homicide rate in a community...

My findings suggest that the U.S. life expectancy would improve significantly with effective interventions to reduce firearm deaths.

http://www.allbusiness.com/finance-insurance/insurance-carriers-related-activities/523667-1.html

 

Be serious Kimi, it isn't the point that the health care bill will take away gun rights.

It is the point that we are having our rights eroded, whether it is choice of health care or the right to carry a legally registered firearm, we are losing our choices.

The remarks that I made above were meant to be facetious, however the underlying questions are real.

 

You would be dead in the water without "clip and paste", do you not have any opinions of your own?

 

I have plenty of my own opinions, but I like to substantiate them. You just blow hot air.

 

There was not one word of your opinion in the post I replied to. This is the case of almost every post you make. You do not say what you think, you only post what others think.

This is the mark of a Communist, let others do your thinking for you, it is easier than having to think for yourself.

 

More name calling I see. You seem to suffering a melt down. You said guns extend lives. I pointed out that it is not true. The American love affair with guns is nearly as lethal as the American love affair with gasoline.

 

What really begs here is rational and logical thinking. One more time: How would changing the way we pay for health care automatically mean we would suddenly lose our technological, and professional advantages?

That's irrational tenguy. A strawman that has no basis in reality.

*running up, grabbing tenguy by the collar, slapping him once on each side of the face*

My God get a hold of yourself, man, you're hysterical!

Tenguy, here's the problem with following your logical extension. You can not extend logic that springs from false cherished notions, brainwashing, faulty dogma, and/or prejudice.

It doesn't matter how hard you try to logically extend bullshit, its still just that, bullshit.