We talk religion here all the time, and no one has gotten banned for that...
We've had miles of threads on that subject!!!

By the way, there isn't a doubt in my mind that there's a God!!!:rose::rose::rose:

 

I have read that Mother Teresa and even Billy Graham have harbored religious doubts. I practice Christianity, and want to believe.

I suggest that you learn about a number of religions, and see if one is right for you.

If I had not been born and raised as a Christian, I would be attracted to Buddhism. Buddhism resembles a school of psychology. It teaches that one should train oneself not to want what one cannot have. It also teaches that Nirvana is an eventual destination after a series of reincarnations. One does not enter Nirvana until one is ready.

If you decide to read the Bible, you should read an introduction, or you are likely to get lost. Isaac Asminov, who was not a Christian, wrote an excellent introduction, entitled, Asimov's Guide to the Bible: A Historical Look at the Old and New Testaments. I have read it, and recommend it.

No less an expert on the English language than H.L. Mencken described the King James Bible as “the best English.” Mencken was also an atheist. However, I recommend a modern translation, and a study Bible. Study Bibles have extensive footnotes, and essays. I recommend The New Revised Standard Version, the Revised English Bible, or the New Jerusalem Bible.

An excellent anthology of the major writings of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism is The Wisdom of China and India, edited by Lin Yutang, and published by The Modern Library. If it is still in print, you can order it through Barns & Noble, or Borders’ Books. Otherwise, you can order it used from Amazon.com.

Asminov's book can be bought new or used from Amazon.com. You can probably order it from Barnes & Noble or Border's Books, also.

 

most people arent atheists. most people are ****ing lazy and the only reason they are atheist is becasue they dont want to wake up sunday mornings and goto church. then they find out about "atheism" and there like omg theirs my excuse "immmmm aaaaaatheisst"(big revelation) and then all their friends think its cool (like emos and their demi-gothness) when really their just lazy ass agnostic fcuks. now real atheists piss me off because they seem to have a bone to pick with christianity, bitches who say islam is militant havent met an atheist. you'll think philsophical arguments with mormons is small talk after an atheist tells you what he thinks of religion.

 

Firstly, I wouldn't say Atheism is an admission of a value-less life. It says there is no intrinsic value set by a 'Creator' , but I don't see that as invalidating our personal values. It just means we actually have to take responsibility for deciding what our morals, and our meaning to life, is, instead of taking the one the priests decide is God. This (figuring out our personal 'meaning of life'), is a far from impossible task. We may not have got it exactly, or even nearly, right, but I don't think we really have any less of a chance than those following religion. I mean, even if God is real, His message has come a long way since it left His lips. The whole Chinese Whispers thing, then personal interpretations, etc. And I believe that we have the capacity, as humans, to judge right and wrong. Just because it isn't a universally applicable constant, doesn't mean its wrong. Disagreeing with others is fine, but respecting, or at least tolerating, their views is pretty fundamental

I also don't think we neccesarily need to think that there's some vast, all important 'goal' to this life, or humannity in general. To me, this seems concieted and willfully ignorant. Is it really better to choose to hide behind lies that you know? (No offence to the religious people, I know you don't think it's a lie )

The lack of a God is in no way a reason to think that chaos will triumph, although I'm not really clear what you're referring to here. Sounding a bit pseudo-scientific, but maybe I just havn't understood fully.

 

Who's him, God or GW?

 

Hmmm.....well......

I guess BOTH would be fun!!

 

I can envisage GW in the dock pointing at God and sniffling..."Don't blame me..He made me do it"

 

Yeah.....and I can envisage george ..... getting hanged.....live.....on the internet.

 

Gitmo would be too soft for GW......As he evaded the draft for Vietnam i'd send him to fight in Afghanistan as a grunt.

 

Every time this subject comes up, I think of a favorite quotation of mine, that seems to convey my feelings on the matter perfectly.

"I believe that man must learn to live without those consolations called religious, which his own intelligence must by now have told him belong to the childhood of the race. Philosophy can really give us nothing permanent to believe either; it is too rich in answers, each canceling out the rest. The quest for Meaning is foredoomed. Human life 'means' nothing. But that is not to say that it is not worth living. What does a Debussy Arabesque 'mean', or a rainbow, or a rose? A man delights in all of these, knowing himself to be no more -- a wisp of music and a haze of dreams dissolving against the sun. Man has only his own two feet to stand on, his own human trinity to see him through: Reason, Courage, and Grace. And the first plus the second equals the third."

 

Life has whatever meaning you assign to it. It comes from your own values, not some external force.

It seems to me you're describing nihilism, not atheism. What ever on earth possessed you to think that atheism means you have to look at life as worthless?

Really. The great majority? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never talked to a great majority of atheists or even a handful. What lies do atheists appeal to? The more you talk, the more I'm convinced that you haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about. You don't even know what it is you're supposedly rejecting.

You're making a very large leap from a god that is, essentially, an uncaused cause, the spark of the Big Bang, if you will, to one that has to do with righteousness. Those are two very different ideas. You're going from Deism to Theism but still trying to maintain it's a deistic stance.

Lies again. What lies are you referring to? And again you begin with the basis that one needs a god to have meaning, even though you can't even figure out what god is or what it's supposed to be. You don't know all that, but you say it gives you meaning. And you repeatedly accuse atheists of appealing to lies... Interesting.

Now, as to my own thoughts. First off, you are both atheist AND agnostic. You have to be. It's the simple definition of the words. An atheist believes there is no god like I'm assuming you believe there is no santa clause. But, do we know, with 100% certainty that there isn't a Santa? Nope. It's hard to say we know anything at all with 100% certainty. But that's not what atheist means. IT only deals with belief. Agnostic deals with what we know. And, when dealing with god, the only honest answer you can give is 'I don't know'. So you are already an atheist but you're also an agnostic. Or, as I phrase it, agnostic atheist.

Now, you've said some very insulting and absurd things and I'm biting my tongue so as not to be as biting in my reply as I feel compelled to be, in the off chance that you are going to clarify some of these statements or at least have a very good reason for saying them. So we'll see what you can come up with. I hope you didn't just shoot your load in your OP, though because otherwise... well, let's just say I'm not optimistic about the quality of you're future posts, if you have.

-S-

 

What always strikes me as odd about these arguments are that they seem to all be variations on a single theme: we either WANT or NEED to believe in God, therefore God must exist. No matter whether or not we have any evidence to support our belief.

The corollary is that we need God to live a good life. I daresay that most people who say this sort of thing have never tried to live a good life without God. If they did, they might find out that it's entirely possible.

 

I'm sorry I didn't elaborate on the point of chaos. Although I am interested in most subjects related to philosophy and science, my main field of study is physics because it goes to the heart of the matter. There are many ways in which chaos (or you could say entropy) dominates over time, mainly due to the law of thermodynamics that says order always decreases over time. It can also be stated by saying that a cause is always greater than the effect, or one can't get more out of a system than is put in. With this it is immediately apparent that everything related to life is temporary.

For almost as long as I can remember I have been unable to ignore the pointlessness of just about every action in life, as so many others can. In general, an endeavor taken for whatever reason often results in having just about the same magnitude of negative results as positive or the negative exceeds the positive. I think that many people don't realize this because the process is so complex, and I envy those that can ignore it. Most of those that don't see this are probably better off not knowing it, so I won't go into details or give any examples. From this point of view, there can be nothing of real value without the existence of a God to maintain order and institute justice.

I appreciate the many comments (except for a bit of trolling and unnecessary confrontation); many are very insightful and interesting. There were many more than I expected over night, and unfortunately I don't have time to read all of them right now. I would like to mention that I would prefer that this be a forum for thought and learning instead of just attacking other opinions. I look forward to an ongoing discussion on the nature of reallity.

 

I've no quarrel with you on that score.

 

Nice words Kimi.......

but unfortunately......men...and maybe women too.....have feet of clay.

There's no changing that.

 

I would be happy to discuss faith in a one on one with anyone who possess a reasonable and open mind. What you choose to believe or not believe is completely up to you, and what a person believes or comes to believe does not particularly change that person but discussion in open forum is just asking for people who have closed their minds to jump on anyone around.

 

So the lack of a God would mean that there is no devil. So there is no "greater than" in this situation. We are in charge of our own lives. Our fate is determined not by destiny, but by our actions as (mostly) humans. Bringing religion into something, and attempting to wish away fear by determining that an all powerful and all knowing being that built the entire world (let's just assume this is true for the sake of long-windedness ok?) needs a few things from us:

Blind faith
An entire day devoted to him
No competition
AND
our money

That just doesn't sound logical to me.

I DO believe that at one point in time, something greater than us could have put life on this planet. Whether it was a nutrient rich meteor. Or some other worldly being that could decimate our planet with a flick of the wrist. There is something more than just us at play, but it isn't some guy from Jerusalem that needs our full and undivided worship. And there is no devil that will burn us in an eternal hellfire. That is just pure absurdity.

 

I enjoy being God.

Except on Sundays.
​

 

Your argument has no relevance to my position. I find the ignorant christian to be just as worthless as the smug atheist, and I think that much organized religion comes about from misunderstanding and greed. It is possible that the idea of the God of Abraham could have originated from some truth, but, if so, that truth has probably been degraded beyond recognition by fools to the point of absurdity.

That being said, I would like to point out that your argument is exagerated and coincides with only a select subgroup of religion, and is therefore basicly worthless.

 

In response to Shake, by lies I was referring to necessity for self-deceit in order to find happiness in an existence where one can achieve nothing. If I am mistaken about this, please do prove it to me. If you think I am wrong but cannot show it, then we obviously have nothing more to discuss.

In my experience, atheism and nihilism are basically indistinguishable because both have the same consequences, including an egoistic form of ethics. A non-nihilistic atheism would have to make assumptions that could easily be refuted by experience.