A possible explanation for the absence of documentation is not proof of Jesus' existence.

 

I'm not attempting to disprove that Jesus existed. I'm just suggesting that you haven't proven that he did.

 

Now there's something I can believe in. Thank you.

 

Don't need it! There is absolutely no reason the Roman Empire would have recorded the execution of Yeshua of Nazareth beyond some abstract statistics (37 Jews, 1 Greek, 2 Egyptians crucified the third week of Aprilis, 798)

But, as I said above, there's no primary evidence for Pontius Pilate either. And that would have been recorded.

 

Agreed.


So stop preaching it then.

 

For events happening that long ago one cannot expect proof, but evidence. Biblical archaeology frequently reveals contemporary accounts of what is mentioned in the Bible. For example, according to the gospels of Matthew and John Caiaphas was the Jewish high priest who interrogated Jesus after he was arrested. Recently a ossuary with his name has been found. It has long been known from extra biblical records that Pontious Pilate lived.

 

THIS is the only thing that should come into play when discussing actual history. It's not about whose opinion you read or what your opinion is, and it's sure as shit not about preaching; it's about historical fact.

 

Thank you.

 

Pontius Pilate was written about by Josephus and Hillel, both of whom lived during the first century AD.

------

"The first physical evidence relating to Pilate was discovered in 1961, when a block of limestone was found in the Roman theatre at Caesarea Maritima, the capital of the province of Iudaea, bearing a damaged dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum.[14] This dedication states that he was [...]ECTVS IUDA[...] (usually read as praefectus iudaeae), that is, prefect/governor of Iudaea. The early governors of Iudaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in 44 AD.
This inscription was discovered in Caesarea (Israel) by a group led by Antonio Frova and has been dated to 26-37 AD. Currently the inscription is housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.[15]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

 

Thanks ZRO. This is a great example to highlight the difference between actual historical evidence and the Gospels.

While Callisthenes may not exist anymore; Ptolemy, Arrian, Plutarch, Diodorus, Curtius Rufus all cite his work so consistently that we are able to logically reconstruct large swatches of the primary source. This is historical evidence.

http://www.interesting.com/stories/alexander/

There are also physical coins and arrowheads and concrete primary evidence to support Alexander's conquests and our secondary reconstructions of primary writings. Alexander renamed 70 cities in Asia, because - I have to believe - he thought people would doubt that he actually conquered the known world in a decade. There's a city in India named after his freakin' horse!!! Alexander literally wrote his name on the wall wherever he went.

 

He'd have loved facebook then!

 

One rock with a partial inscription without a cognomen "discovered" in 1961 that Wiki asserts was dated to 30 CE without citation and a rank that contradicts the Gospels and wouldn't merit a multi-legion border province is the only "evidence" of one of the most infamous men in history. You also ignored my above post debunking said rock and Josephus.

What offices did Pilate hold before he became Prefect? Why is Pilate's name omitted from Senate rolls? What legions did Pilate lead? What lands did Pilate conquer? Where are the milestones from the roads he built? Where are the inscriptions from his aqueduct?

 

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Pontius Pilate's title was traditionally thought to have been procurator, since Tacitus speaks of him as such. However, an inscription on a limestone block known as the Pilate Stone — apparently a dedication to Tiberius Caesar Augustus — that was discovered in 1961 in the ruins of an amphitheater at Caesarea Maritima refers to Pilate as "Prefect of Judaea".

Reference:

The first physical evidence relating to Pilate was discovered in 1961, when a block of limestone was found in the Roman theatre at Caesarea Maritima, the capital of the province of Iudaea, bearing a damaged dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum.[14] This dedication states that he was [...]ECTVS IUDA[...] (usually read as praefectus iudaeae), that is, prefect/governor of Iudaea. The early governors of Iudaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in 44 AD.
This inscription was discovered in Caesarea (Israel) by a group led by Antonio Frova and has been dated to 26-37 AD. Currently the inscription is housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.[15]

Also, there is a Bronze prutah minted by Pontius Pilate
with the Greek letters TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC (Tiberius Emperor) and date LIS (year 16 = 29/30 A.D)

Reference:

1. A Dictionary of Roman Coins' by Seth William Stevenson, FSA, C.Roach Smith, FSA, and Frederic W Madden, MRSA Published by George Bell & Sons, New York and Covent Garden (1889) pg 749

THE BEST PROOF THAT JESUS EXISTED.

I think the best proof that Jesus really existed is the fact that after 2,000 years, his story lives on. What makes his survival of his name so remarkable is that there is no reason why he should be remembered. He was so insignificant that nothing was officially recorded about him. He was just a poor itinerant preacher from Judea, an obscure Roman province, who was teaching a heretical version of a minority religion that the Roman’s considered a supersuspicion. On top of that he only had a 3 year public life which came to an end when he was executed for sedition in a region of the Roman Empire known for its revolutionary zeal. In other words, from a Romen point of view, he was a nobody from nowhere who did nothing worth noting.

After his death, his followers should have all disbanded in fear for their own lives, instead they kept growing in numbers until they became a nuisance and had to be hunted down and killed by both Romans and Jews. Being a Christian in those days was a mortal liability, and yet his following kept growing and continued to flourish until it overtook and surpassed all the other religious beliefs that existed at that time and continued to grow even after the fall of Judea and Rome.

The belief in this man and his teachings has superseded and survived beyond all the other religions and beliefs of that time, so I ask you; is it likely that all this could have happened if Jesus had never existed?

HD

 

How does a book from 1889 date a stone found in 1961? And the references the Wiki cites for the rock are as follows:

Neither of these citations support the claims the Wiki author makes. This Wiki, even by Wiki standards, is horribly absent of accurate citations. There are whole sections of this article that assert one claim after the other without citation. If I didn't despise Wikipedia, I'd log in just to go sentence by sentence through that article to include [citation needed] after every claim it makes.

And, as we've discussed throughout this thread, argument by antiquity is a fallacy. Judaism has survived far longer than Christianity - are they correct about Jesus not being the Messiah? Same for Hinduism - did Vishnu come down and teach Yoga to Arjuna because people still believe it today?

 

The Pilate inscription is generally considered by archaeologists to refer to Pontius Pilate. I have already mentioned that Josephus wrote about Pilate. I was mistaken about Hillel. He died 10 AD.

 

When many believe it existed it must have existed:

1. The Missing Link
2. Jesus
3. Big Bang
4. God
5. Beginning of Time
6. End of Time

Neither has truely conclusive evidence for existing. The verdict: what do you believe.

 

So says the Wiki, with no citations of actual archeologists. The rock is generally considered by people of faith to refer to Pontius Pilate. Archeologists probably consider that the inscription refers to someone with "...IUSPILAT..." in their name - if they consider it authentic.

And Cambridge debunked Josephus, as I showed 2 pages ago and you continue to ignore. Since secondary Christian authors of the second and third century who refer to Josephus' writings never mention the Testimonium Flavianum, modern historians believe that it was added later by someone else.

 

Tsk!! Everyone knows - except Wiki d'oh!! - that this reference to 'pilate' that was found is wrong!! The actual inscription really read

It was at the local community centre, 2 dinari for members, 5 dinari for non-members *rolls eyes*

 

The question here is not did Pilate exist or did Vishnu exist?. The question is did Jesus exist?

King Nothing, in the end there may never be sufficient proof to convince you that Jesus was a real person and that his life and teachings are the foundation of today's Christen faith, However, I would like you to consider this one question.

How likely is it that even against all odds, 1) His lack of money, power or position, 2) His brief public life in an obscure location, 3) his ignominious death, 4) The full and vigorous opposition to his teaching by his own religious leadership, and 5) the Roman Empire's extreme persecution of all those who believed in him,... Considering all the above, how likely is it that hundreds and thousands of the people living in his day would have endure such unrelenting life threatening hostility if they had not actually seen him, heard him and believed in him?

And if Jesus did not exist, who created the myth and to what purpose?

HD

 

We may not know if he existed or not, and if not who created the myth, as to the purpose that is simpler.
All religions are created to control the followers, to make money and create influence over governments.