The question posed in this tread is... Did Jesus really exist? My answer is yes I believe he really existed. If you are asking whether I believe Joseph Smith existed, I would also answer yes, I do believe that Joseph Smith existed. If you are also asking if I believe his claims about being given a golden book by an angle etc... I'd have to say that I am very sceptical about that but I don't know enough about it to rule it out altogether.

If you are also trying to say (as Kink Nothing says) that if I believe in Jesus' message I must also believe in every other religious leader's message because they are all based on faith... I reject that logic as nonsense... I can choose who to believe and what to believe based on my studies, my analysis of the philosophy and my own intuition. That is what faith is all about.

HD

 

No. First, you're misrepresenting my argument; either, intentionally to create a strawman, or unintentionally which suggests that all the effort I've put into responding to your incessant inane replies has gone unread. Either way pisses me off. Second, your notion of faith is not faith.

My argument is that if your faith proves the historical existence of Christ despite the absence of evidence, then the Hindu's faith must also prove the historical existence of a four-armed Vishnu avatar teaching yoga. Obviously, no one would agree with that statement. Therefore, your faith in Christ does not prove the historical existence of Christ.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

I know God didn't create the Earth in six days, 6000 years ago. I know Roman syncretism merged the various Sun cults of the Empire into Christianity. I know a few dozen old men in dresses voting doesn't confer divine favor. I know dead is dead. I know we're all wormfood.

Faith is belief despite reason. I don't need a history book to validate my faith. Using faith to rewrite history is vulgar and cheapens faith. Faith is strengthened despite reason, not because of it.

 

'very skeptical' ? really? a guy says an angel came to his room and gave him a map to a magical golden book hidden there by the native indians who were given the book by Jesus who miraculously appeared in the American Midwest after rising from the dead in the Middle East to preach the gospel in America.

i don't know who's more fucking bonkers, Joseph Smith or the idiots who believe in this shit.

this isn't even worth arguing about. if I have to convince you that this is bullshit you're way too far gone to be 'saved'

 

A+ Hardrive...well said. :rose:...do you notice how grossly offended members like Incubus, Kimiko and King Nothing get when others simply post their faith?...they sound like 5 year olds who can't have it their way, immaturity at it's finest.

 

You already know Christmas trees and Easter eggs were originally Pagan, and you probably know the seasonal timing of the two holidays is Pagan too. Mildly interesting. Not what you'll find here. What you'll discover at POCM is that ancient cultures around the Mediterranean shared standard ideas about Gods and their powers and place in the universe—and that Christianity simply adopted those ideas and applied them to Jesus. Ancient people knew godmen did miracles. The first Christians thought Jesus was a godman, so they told stories about Jesus doing miracles. They even had Him doing the same miracles as the other godmen.
The core of Christianity—the worship of a miracle working, walking, talking godman who brings salvation—was also the core of other ancient religions that began at least a thousand years before Jesus.
Heaven, hell, prophecy, daemon possession, sacrifice, initiation by baptism, communion with God through a holy meal, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, immortality of the soul, and many other "Christian" ideas all belonged to earlier, older Pagan faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture. Along with miracle working sons of God, born of a mortal woman, they were common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religion. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more.
And they had them generations—centuries— before Jesus was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.
as quoted from via the web

 

it's not immaturity it's frustration. have you ever played hot & cold? you know, when something is hidden from someone and the only way to guide them is by saying hot when they are nearby and cold when they are far from the object.

well it's like we're playing that game with you and we keep screaming COLD!! COLD!!! FREEZING!! HYPOTHERMIA!!! yet you keep going in the same wrong direction over and over again.

That would be annoying wouldn't it? welcome to the world of an atheist!

 

Frustration?...mmm, ok. I think it's more to the fact that you are so uncomfortable in your personal view that the only way you ever feel better or justified is to get others to agree. You can believe whatever you want Incubus, your ramblings bother me none, should they?

 

I'm not arguing with you Incubus but you have to understand that we don't all have the same debating style. I'm not as combative as you and I try to give my views without offering offence. So, I'd rather say that I'm "very skeptical" than say "i don't know who's more fucking bonkers, Joseph Smith or the idiots who believe in this shit."

I'm no idiot.

HD

 

Bravo King Nothing. We have common ground. I guess the basis of our argument is that you don't see a need for having history validate the existence of Jesus Christ. I agree but I don't see why history can't validate His existence. If Jesus Christ really existed there is probably some proof in history even if we don't have it right now.

My best proof is that it is unlikely that His story could have been created from thin air and that belief in Him could have flourish in an atmosphere of hostility unless He actually existed and his story was true. What confounds me about you is that you believe in Jesus Christ and his divinity and yet persist that His disciples were not the ones who spread belief in him. You keep saying belief in Him was spread through a Roman Cult... I must be missing something.

Like you, I don't believe in all the nonsense propagated by organised Religion. Although I agree that God can do anything He wants, I believe in a logical and purposeful God that works according to his laws and not as a magician. I also believe that our logic is limited and we are in no possition to judge God or criticize His ways.

Since we agree that Jesus Christ existed, there is no point in going on with this argument. I don't like to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Sorry if I was starting to piss you off.

HD

 

What are you, dierdre's sock?

If we went back in a time machine and visited Jerusalem at every Passover from 20-40 CE and there were no legionaries, no crucifixions, no Pilates, no gibbets on Mt. Calvary - I would still have my faith. You would be visiting the nearest Scientology temple. Because my heart believes something does not mean my brain also believes it. I choose to have faith. The more my reason tells me otherwise, the stronger my faith gets.

If you really on reason to justify your faith; either your faith is going to fail, or your reason will be doomed to ignorance. Yours is a childish faith; hawking relics like a medieval nun; screaming that the end is nigh and waiting for the transporter beam to whisk you away from Armageddon; expecting God to flush the poison from your system when your snake bites you; or the little girl who prays for a pony and throws a tantrum when it's not delivered.

 

If a person's particular faith were based on study and analysis, you wouldn't expect so many people to adhere to the faith they were born into.

But what I was trying to say is that every religion has its stories, stories that provide the original basis for the faith. In Christian's case, it's the story about Jesus' life, his teachings, his miracles, his death. In the case of Mormons, it's the story of Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Most people find it easy to believe the mythology of their own religion, and easy to dismiss the mythology of someone else's.

 

!!!!!!!!!

 

Who are you to question my faith or how I arrive at my beliefs?

If you choose to believe whatever you choose and you don't feel that it has to make one bit of sense to you, that is your prerogative... but don't attempt to impose your beliefs on me or belittle my beliefs and methodology because they don't match yours. You do yourself a disservice when you stoop to that level of debate.

I choose to examine my faith because I believe that God gave us a brain to use and the ability to understand Him if we come to Hm with an open mind and not all puffed up and filled with hubris. I know you don't agree with that but who cares. When it comes to matters of faith you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine so please don't attempt to drew me into an argument about your definition of faith. Clearly your intellect is superior to my primitive thoughts and thus your faith is also superior to my child like fantasies and imaginings.

Let's end this debate here before it deteriorates any further and we end up saying things that should best remain unsaid.

HD

 

pardon me...

i believe that the God exhists but not in the way that "they" represet Him to us.Jesus might be a real person but he wasn't the son of God.Otherwise, Vatican could leave historicals and scientists check the facts and give the truth to the people...Everyone knows that there is a conspirancy and everything happends for money and power.
Religions are people's opium.With them they will control humanity.God is something Above them.God is love, is everywhere..!

 

that's yet to be proven :razz:

 

Easter teaches us that Jesus was the first ever Zombie in history. I can imagine the disciples walking in and finding him eating Judas's arm and shouting 'Oh for christ's sake, not again'

George A Romero should make 'The REAL history of Christ'.
Come on, we can handle the truth.

 

If you do some research on how many of Jesus Of Nazareth's contemporary history writers mentioned him (which is exactly nought) he probably didn't exist. Taking into account that in history (prior to Jesus) there's more than 15 figures who fit the profile (born from a virgin, performed miracles, died age 33 on the cross, dead for three days, resurrected and ascended into the heavens) there's a great chance that the figure with those characteristics was used to fool the people into submission to an all powerful god who sent his son to save us from our sins. Which didn't work. Or we wouldn't be here, now would we...

 

Mayhap we should examine the Easter story, a bit, eh?

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/sunday_sacrilege_the_silliest.php

:lol:

-S-

 

-S-

 

Of course he existed. There are still thousands of him all over Mexico. The question is what was he really doing while he was here?