I am an American, but I am without nationalism, and I think the United States can learn much from Europe.

 

The gross domestic product of Communist China is $8,789,000,000,000.

The gross domestic product of the United States is $14,260,000,000,000. This is not twice that of Communist China.

The gross domestic product of the European Union exceeds that of the United States, and is $14,510,000,000,000.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...States&countryCode=us&regionCode=na&rank=2#us

I have read that the Euro is likely to surpass the dollar as the international currency, if the Communist Chinese Renminbi does not do it first.

 

Right, but you didn't think George W. Bush was "destroying the country", even when he started wars on false pretenses, okayed the use of torture, illegally wiretapped American citizens, and brought about the worst economic meltdown since the Great Depression. You didn't think Ronald Reagan was "destroying the country" when he claimed that you could lower taxes, increase defense spending, and still reduce the deficit...policies that led, at the time, to the biggest deficits in the nation's history.

Give me a break.

 

Like most of your persuasion you do not seem to have forgotten anything since the end of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, you do not seem to have learned anything either. European social democracy compares well with the American free enterprise system in providing a decent standard of living for most citizens.

I have already discussed the economy of Communist China, which is gaining on our own.

Even the economy of the Soviet Union made impressive achievements, when we consider what it had to work with. In two generations the Soviet government carried Russia from semi feudalism to the space age, while doing most of the fighting to defeat Nazi Germany. It did this beginning with the devastation of World War I, and it recovered from the greater devastation of World War II.

 

The general policies that you so decry are still in effect, why is that? We are currently posturing for war(s) in both Iran and N. Korea, if (and I do mean "if") they should come to pass, what will you be saying?

We are continuing to see the political factions blame the President, while Congress goes on it's merry way digging a deeper and deeper hole for the next several generations to get out of.

 

I didn't read your discussion of China, but I submit that China is communist in name only, just as the U.S. is capitalist in name only. There's no black and white out there, only shades of grey.

 

One can attribute the successes of the Communist Chinese economy to a kind of capitalism, but not to anything that deserves to be called "freedom." What matters is that what they are doing gets positive results. Americans point fingers at each other while the U.S. economy continues an economic decline that really began with the first Bush II recession of 2001.

The Communist Chinese have a more productive economy. European Social Democracy provides the Europeans with a better quality of life. Our bloated military cannot defeat poorly armed and poorly lead guerrillas in Afghanistan and Iraq. The American way of doing things is no longer the best.

 

I didn't know we were discussing Bush, but just for the record, I am no fan of his either.

 

And also to the shitty wages they pay their workers, if their sweat shops were unionized and they paid their workers a reasonable wage then there'd be no way there mogul bosses would be as affluent as they are.

 

Of course I agree with you, but I have read that wages in China are going up as the unemployment rate goes down. That hasn't happened in the United States since Bill Clinton was president.

 

Going up....lol, from shitty to crappy


People's Republic of China:-

Main article: Economy of the People's Republic of China
The Ministry of Labor and Social Security set China's first minimum wage law on 1 March 2004. The Regulations on Enterprises Minimum Wage was made to "ensure the basic needs of the worker and his family, to help improve workers' performance and to promote fair competition between enterprises." One monthly minimum wage was set for full-time workers, and one hourly minimum wage for part-time workers. Provinces, municipalities, and autonomous regions are allowed to legislate for their own minimum wage separate from the national one.
In February 2010, officials in Jiangsu province increased the minimum wage to 960 RMB (about US$140.62) per month, the same as Shanghai. China's highest minimum wage is in Shenzhen (1000 RMB per month).
Guangdong Province increased its minimum wage on 1 September 2006 and was split into five categories. The highest is ¥780 per month or ¥4.66 (~US$0.68 an hour (in Guangzhou city). The lowest is ¥450 per month or ¥2.69 (~US$0.39) an hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law

 

your really are a fucking nut case! at your age you would think you would know better, the government is not going to creat shit, all the government is going to do is continue to waste money and tax those of us who who create the real jobs the small business man. one day probably when it is too late you all will realize that the road the fucking asshole is putting us on is socialism, and there is no country where it has ever worked. fucking idiot.

 

i dont like obama!

 

He's a fuckin moron!!! He will go down as one of the worst we ever had!!!!!!

 

Well one measure is President Obama is too intelligent to stand there telling a bunch of obvious and unsupportable lies like you're doing here. Allow me to demonstrate.,

President Obama did not give us a 10% unemployment rate. We lost 8 million jobs before he took office. The direct result of a financial collapse caused by the lack or regulation, oversight, and corrupt practices of the private sector.

The bailouts of the banks, the automotive Industry, and the rest of the financial sector was started by the Bush Administration not the Obama Administration. Only a fool would not know and admit that.

A doubling of the national debt is another lie. President Obama inherited an $11 TRILLION national debt from President Bush who added $6 Trillion in new debt with his lie and spend policies.

Now lets see you prove any of that wrong.

Absolutely not and here's why. First President Obama is the first president since Jimmy Carter that understands our future depends on moving away from oil and has implemented programs and incentives to do just that.

And not just because it is the environmentally sound thing to do but because there are millions of new jobs that can be created and we can keep about a billion dollars a day right here in the US by producing our own fuels.

President Obama also sees and understands our health care system and the way we pay for it is also going to sink our economy and has taken steps to prevent that while a the same time making health care more available to all citizens.

His intelligence in this was readily apparent when the opponents of health care thought it was dead but once President Obama entered the debate he carried the day. And not only carried the reform, those health care reforms are now increasing in support now that the President has explained the truth instead of the lies and scare tactics put out by the right.

Not at all and I'm not the one who has to resort to empty rhetoric instead of actually looking at what has happened since President Obama was elected.

No, I mean when it comes to solving problems and not just any problems the worst problems facing the US in more than a generation.

Here's just a partial list of what President has accomplished in a little over a year and a half.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2...s-that-hopey,-changey-thing-workin-out-for-ya

No I don't think you can question my objectivity. Here, once again this is only a partial list.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2...s-that-hopey,-changey-thing-workin-out-for-ya

Since then financial form will get passed and President Obama is moving onto immigration reform. All the really tough problems totally ignored by the Bush administration are being solved by the Obama administration with progress on new fronts especially new sources of energy.

Actually the only thing revealed here is your tendency to talk in incoherent circles with nothing more than snide rhetoric with absolutely nothing to back it up.

I always like it when I get to a place like this because deep down inside we all know that as soon as someone has to resort to name calling and personal attacks with nothing else to back it up that person has not only lost their argument they have discredited themselves.

I can back up what I'm saying with sources which I have done. I can give examples that will stand up. Instead of giving examples or President Bush's failures and mistakes and trying to falsely claim they are President Obama's.

The definition of ideologically blind would be someone who tries to blame the failure of the lie that conservatism on a President who is solving the problems that were created by eight years of obviously failed leadership.

How is that a frightening phrase? I'm simply saying that by my own observations and analysis there is no question in my mind that President Obama is the most intelligent, effective and hard working president I've seen in my lifetime.

And up until just recently there was some question in my mind. Dwight D Eisenhower was the first president I remember, and while I was too little to appreciate him at the time, through the years I've really come to admire Eisenhower's intelligence and leadership. And would also contend that in many ways Eisenhower was actually more liberal than Obama. But he also got us involved in Viet Nam and was willing to sponsor the Bay of Pigs Invasion. He was far too willing to give the CIA a free hand which actually resulted in most the terrorist problems we are facing today as well as the justified resentments of many in South America.

I also believe John F. Kennedy was another intelligent president. But certainly not fool proof and perhaps pron to rashness that actually could have resulted in a nuclear war. In retro spec I also think it was a bad idea to make his brother Bobby Attorney General. And of course there's the working with the Mafia to assassinate Castro fiasco.

So after observing President Obama for the past two years there's no doubt in my mind at least that he's the most intelligent, effective, and hard working president I've seen in my lifetime.

Nothing dangerous about a person making up their own mind after observation, analysis and is there
DanteAlighieri?

Ok fair enough. Then if I supply the evidence that conclusion is based on you will of course retract what you've said here? Because if you don't aren't you actually doing what you are falsely accusing me of?

As evidence of Barack Obama's intelligence:

Exhibit 1:
A virtually unknown black one term Senator from Illinois creates and conducts a national campaign for President of the United States that is successful despite all odds being against that.

Exhibit 2:
The first efforts of the new president are to reach out to everyone asking for unity and bipartisanship at solving the most urgent problems facing the nation in more than a generation.

Exhibit 3:
Despite their previous employment in the Bush Administration, President Obama retains both Robert Gates as Secretary of Defense and General David Petraeus and precedes to do exactly what he said he would do during the campaign which is increase the pressure to control Afghanistan and begin withdrawing from Iraq.

Exhibit 4:
President Obama appoints Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State and within the first few months on the job Clinton proves herself to be one of the best Secretary of State's in our history. Accomplishing nothing short of forcing the Pakistan Military to seriously engage the Taliban in Pakistan instead of giving them their own territory to operate out of. An incredible accomplishment really.

Exhibit 5: President Obama agrees to continue with the government bailouts of the financial system and automotive industry begun by president Bush and calls for a stimulus package large enough to stop the economic free fall and avoid another Great Depression. He extends unemployment benefits and subsidizes COBRA to help the millions of people who became unemployed when the corrupt practices of the financial sector caused a world wide recession. And the stimulus package not only succeeds it also forces conservative/Republicans to admit they lied when they tried to claim the stimulus did not create one job.

Exhibit 6:
President Obama heeds the warnings that our health care system is not meeting the health care needs of the nation (45,000 people per year dying from lack of health care) and that it is mathematically unsustainable and will sink both the government and private sector without reform.

And after cutting deals with two of the major stake holders for their support (the pharmaceutical industry and the American Medical Association) President Obama calls for health care reform but allows the battle to rage through congress largely on its own merits.

Then when the reforms stall in congress and are believed by conservative/Republicans to be dead, there are calls for president Obama to enter the debate and end the stalemate which he does. First, in the best State of the Union Address I've ever herd and then by taking the debate directly to the Republicans on television no less.

President Obama then did the same thing he's done consistently since becoming president. He took his case to the American people and won.

Health care reform was saved by president Obama and real reforms are now a reality for the first time in more than 100 years of failed attempts. And since the health care reforms have been passed and president Obama has taken time to explain the reforms to the American people support for the reforms are increasing.

Exhibit 7:
One of the other efforts immediately undertaken by president Obama was to try and change the unfavorable world opinion that had resulted from the Bush administration and succeeded. He also reached out to Russia and the Muslim world seeking peaceful resolutions to conflicts and violence.

And to that end the Obama Administration has also stood up to Israel and insisted Israel and the Palestinian peace process go forward and that is also being successfully accomplished as Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's announcement yesterday that the peace process must go forward.


Exhibit 8:
While making progress towards peaceful and productive resolution President Obama has also kept up pressure on terrorists killing and capturing dozens of high ranking Al Qaeda and Taliban members as well as stopping several attempted attacks in the US.


Exhibit 9:
President Obama really fucks up. He makes a stupid and unguarded comment about the arrest his friend Henry Gates and sets off a national controversy.

President Obama admits his mistake and settles the issue by inviting both Gates and the arresting police officer, Sgt. James Crowley, to the White House for a beer.

It worked and the most serious mistake of President Obama's administration is admitted and worked past to a successful conclusion.

Exhibit 10:
President Obama continues to move congress from one contentious issue to another and never quits working on the agenda he said he would if elected.

Those now include creating jobs and small businesses through tax cuts and government incentives to invest in new technology and products especially in the areas of new Alternative Fuels and renewable energy. Those changes and business start ups are occurring right now.

This is the most intelligent approach any US president has ever undertaken for several reasons from environmental, to economic, to national security. There is no disputing that. American currently spend approximately $1 BILLION a day on the importation of oil which is a finite resource and is running out at a time of increased demand. Anyone with the slightest understanding of supply and demand can see that is inescapable.

At the same time the US has at best a 90 day supply of oil which makes the nation vulnerable to any disruptions to our oil supply which now comes from several places many of which are actually unfriendly to the US. This has been a problem since the early 1970's and while there have been constant calls to end our dependence on foreign oil the reality is our dependence has only increased not decreased since the 1970's. President Obama is the first president in 35 years to take that threat seriously and actually take steps to eliminate it.

On the economic front the only thing the US has been a major exporter of since Ronald Reagan is US manufacturing jobs. This has resulted in a constant stream of formerly middle class working families into poverty. It has also turned what used to be the heart of our industries into a rust belt.

There are an estimated three to four million jobs that can be created directly by producing our own alternative fuels and renewable energy. These are jobs that cannot be outsourced to foreign countries and can put the US back in place as both a world manufacturing leader and exporter.

It also represents the kind of money we need to generate to pay off our national debt which you seem so concerned about. One billion dollars a day is a huge chunk of money that once injected back into our domestic economy will generate another seven dollars in support and companion spending. In other words it puts enough money in enough people's pockets to support other manufacturing and thousands of other small businesses.

All this is true even if we don't even consider the improvement to the environment and trying to deal with the fact of human caused global warming.

Exhibit 11:
President Obama is forging ahead with efforts to assist both the creation and survival of small businesses, rightly noting they are perhaps our only hope for pulling ourselves up the economic ladder.

That assistance includes tax breaks, incentives for new alternative energy and energy projects, start up money, and expertise. The most important assistance comes in the form of health care reform that will help small businesses compete with their foreign competitors and giant corporations alike, giving them alternatives and tax credits they did not have before.

And while the rest of the nation seems to be fixated on the Gulf Oil Blow Out, president Obama is once more out there taking his case to the American Public building support for both his jobs and business bills as well as the conversion to alternative energy.

Exhibit 12:
President Obama moves congress from successfully passing health care reform to tackling financial reforms which appears will be passed within the next two weeks. And with financial reform barely achieved President Obama is now trying to force congress to tackle the illegal immigration issue instead of just using it for a wedge and fear tactic issue as it has been for the past decade.

Exhibit 13:
President Obama after congress refuses to do so, creates his own deficit reduction commission and appoints a truly bi-partisan panel which includes the likes of former Wyoming Senator Alan K. Simpson. A true and ferocious conservative.

The commission is already making waves by discussing the real problems with social security and other entitlement programs discussing the realities and possible solutions that scare congress to death.

Exhibit 14:
President Obama takes full responsibility for any failures connected to the Gulf Blow Out and Oil Spill, vows to correct those mistakes, and turns around and appoints Admiral Thad Allen as the incident coordinator when the politically popular thing to do would have been to fire him.

Allen has proven to be the right man for the Job.

In addition President bypassed Congress, BP, and the oil industry by calling for BP to set up a $20 Billion fund for the clean up and compensation, thus insuring BP will in fact pay for it instead of saying they will and then refusing to actually pay while they stall for decades in US courts only to have the damages reduced.

Exhibit 15:
Despite the negative effects it has on his popularity President Obama continues to tell the American people the truth even if that is very unpopular with them. This is the mark of a true leader. He tells us what we need to know not what we want to here.

The latest example of this is repeating again that regardless of the blow out and environmental disaster in the Gulf we are still going to have to have offshore drilling for oil and gas.

OK look I'm kind of tired of coming up with examples but I can probably come up with another 15 or 30 if you want. And in the meantime I'm betting you cannot disprove a single thing I've said but I invite you to present your arguments and sources.

You're now either going to disprove what I said or retract this statement and apologize aren't you. I mean it is obviously an unfounded accusation.

And don't you worry. I wanted to get this much at least in right now. But I'll get to the rest of your alleged arguments very soon.

 

"What matters is that what they are doing gets positive results."

What a frightening statement. No, their positive results do not matter in the least. It is easy to have a strong economy when you have slave labor, and to pretend that what takes place in China is anything other than slave labor is to deny reality. To applaud them for it is to deny morality.

The U.S. remains on top of China, yet we do it while paying fair wages and providing a comfortable lifestyle. Now you tell me again, who has it right? Apparently you're rooting for the slave wage country? You seem like a nice person but you really need to think your statements through more thoroughly.

European quality of life is a disaster that has already unfolded in Greece. It turns out that you cannot stay afloat if your citizens retire at the age of 50 and continue to get full pay for it. Their system is crumbling, Greece was the first domino, and if you knew anything of socialism, you'd know it's great until the money runs out. And under socialism, the money always runs out because they promise too much to too many people. You may want to look back at the U.S.S.R and see how easily they went from super power on par with the U.S. to people dying in the streets and standing in soup lines.

As for your army line, I answered that already in another thread. It is such a simplistic approach and I honestly hope you are joking. We are not fighting a war in those places, we are skirmishing with terrorists dressed like civilians. If you want to see the full might of the U.S. military than you'll have to wait until an actual war breaks out (let's hope one doesn't). Things tend to change when you're allowed to shoot first, drop bombs, and actually use your arsenal. But I'm sure you knew that.

 

Damn stumbler...did you ever think about writing a book?....

 

He has written many revised history texts.

 

Maybe you should too. Chinese wage growth has been very rapid over the past several years, and it's GDP growth is on a pace to exceed that of the U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/02/china-wage-growth-markets-econ-cx_jc_0702markets1.html

http://129.3.20.41/eps/dev/papers/0512/0512002.pdf

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CNY

 

Kimi, did you actually read that article?

A few high points, the average workers wage in China is still only $2,756/year, while the average left out the 800 million farmers who earn an average of $1,338/year.

Taking inflation into account the increase in wages was less than 12% per year. Still pretty damn high, but then 2 times nothing is still nothing.