If that is the case then the war in Iraq is deffinetly illegal and should be ended immediately.

 

I'm fairly sure that I've seen the first part of this film when I logged into a radical Moslem site last year.
I do agree with you Stumbler that nothing should be censored if it contains truth and helps you to fairly establish a balanced view of what's going on.

If this was anything like the first part, then I can honestly say to you that it would not help your understanding.

It was nothing more than a series of telephoto shots of US soldiers being killed by sniper fire, amidst a great deal of hatred and anti-West propaganda, intended to inflame Moslem passions and demoralize the West.

It was a celebration of killing - and nothing more. It didn't educate me, it sickened me!

 

I cannot condone censorship in any form because it means I can be censored for the same reasons, because it takes away my right to view and read whatever I want, and because it puts me in agreement with the same people who want to censor or outlaw poronography.

 

as chunky says:
It was nothing more than a series of telephoto shots of US soldiers being killed by sniper fire, amidst a great deal of hatred and anti-West propaganda, intended to inflame Moslem passions and demoralize the West.

I've read your posts. You seem intelligent to me. And if you did watch it and did NOT scream: Bully for you. I saw it and I did. I think your complaint is you want the same right.

I can agree with that. BUT a guy with your brains can understand IF you have loved ones in Iraq, and you didn't even know what this was a link too ( what it was) , downloaded it, saw young US guys getting shot in the head, being dropped in the street like chickens etc. while some guy spouts the Koran, Its going to be VERY upsetting when they come here mainly for entertainment.

BUT yes. As to YOUR rights:

I believe you are saying you feel awful, yet tolerate MY perversion, so yes, by all means track down those vids. You have big shoulders after all, I even feel slightly sorry you missed it, still, I promise to keep writing smut. That's about all I can do for you to make up for helping get those hateful links pulled I think.

 

I think you are acting like a hypocritical fool Fanfiction. The issue is not the unpleasant realities of war or weither or not I want to watch it. Your flare for the emotional does nothing to change the fact that I cannot have free speech and neither can you unless we are willing to allow it. The issue is there are only two choices. We either oppose censorship or we support it. We cannot oppose censorship when it is something we feel comfortable with and then support it when it is something that upsets us. If you support it in this instance because it was upsetting to you than you support the concept of censorship and agree in principle at least with those who find your fetish upsetting, or the millions who find all ponography upsetting or believe it to be harmful and dangerous.
I refuse to be a hypoctire by word, deed or silence.

 

I think you are acting like a hypocritical fool Fanfiction. The issue is not the unpleasant realities of war or weither or not I want to watch it. Your flare for the emotional does nothing to change the fact that I cannot have free speech and neither can you unless we are willing to allow it.

I'm gratified you said "acting" because you are wise to believe I am not.

I believe I have agreed with you on the point about free speech already. Also I said I felt you were upset that you didn't get the choice. Not that you WANTED to watch it.

However, I stick by MY belief that on THIS site, an UNMARKED post of THIS nature is not appropriate. In fact, I was NOT told I would see young US guys getting shot in the head before viewing it. If I had been, as you are on my stories as regards content, I could have chosen to ignore those links as I would have.

Also although I agree MY outrage may have helped persuade the mods to pull the links, I never demanded them to be pulled.

And to all that feel cheated by their lose, I encourage you to go and track them down. They are a particularly good way to get up your hatred towards your fellow man, keep you wanting to kill by being taunted by a religious zealot etc, all good for you if you like things like: some ones poor young son shot while doing his duty, dead so fast that he hits the pavement like a chicken with its wings clipped back, or like a murdered child, frozen in a reach towards his mother's far-off love, and which he'll never know again.


The issue is there are only two choices. We either oppose censorship or we support it. We cannot oppose censorship when it is something we feel comfortable with and then support it when it is something that upsets us. If you support it in this instance because it was upsetting to you than you support the concept of censorship and agree in principle at least with those who find your fetish upsetting, or the millions who find all ponography upsetting or believe it to be harmful and dangerous.
I refuse to be a hypoctire by word, deed or silence.

Labeling is NOT censorship, as long as there aren't limits on what can be labeled.

I know something of the porn industry. Snuff films are banned because they have victims, child porn is banned because it has victims, bestiality is banned in SOME but not all places because some gov's have agreed there is a victim in it. I think you are taking a very high stand on this issue, but these films had VICTIMS! You wont win me over with your effort to persuade me that if I disagree with ALL censorship, I agree to get rid of bestiality or young TEXT etc. for these reasons! But I respect your right to say it etc.

 

ok, I take the stance that this was spam because he did not have 10 legitimate posts before posting links.
If he had been an interesting individual that actuailly posted his opinions on other places on this forum, it would have been different.

 

Perhaps.. and also, freedom of speech is only ONE (important) right.

In these films there are VICTIMS, not paid actors even, they have rights, and what of the rights of their families? I understand these questions are difficult even for adults, and I'd be happy enough with labeled content.

BUT I would totally vote for the right of a parent to suppress the publication AND distribution of such vile and incendiary material, wrought by people whom obviously wish to spread fear, hate and loathing through the tragic deaths of young men that don't get a SAY in that role either..(now THAT is censorship at its worst!)

 

I agree with you totally on this FF..As a mother I would be horrified to see such a video with my child's head getting shot off..Also, I wouldn't won't anyone else to be able to view it. These victims have rights and so do their families. I applaud you for this stand on this particular issue and stand behind you totally..

 

There are limits to all things. Even free speech. I don't support blueprints for nuclear bombs being on the internet. I don't support The Anarchist's Cookbook being in high school libraries. That information should be available doesn't mean that it needs to be available _here_. There's a difference between saying, "You can't say that" and "You can't say that here."

Besides free speech I also believe in the right to privacy, proprietary information, copyright, and common politeness. I do believe that the original post breaks the (possibly unspoken or unwritten) rules of this forum and that it was correct to delete the link and ban the poster.

 

Well I said at the beginning of my post that I knew I was going to be in the minority on this issue and take some heat for it but I stand by my original post which included the statement that if it was banned for being spam I would not argue about that, but could not agree and still don’t if it is being banned simply because of it’s content and that is the basis of the banning I am seeing.

First here’s Nympho’s comment
You're links aren't welcome here
Followed by this statement: We don't need that kind of propaganda here.

I think that indicates that at least part of her motivation was banning it because she did not agree with it’s content.

Then we have the very dramatic and emotional posts by Fanfiction which included some very hateful and derogatory statements referring to the Muslim religion. These appear to me to be outside the stated or implied “rules” of this forum

He follows this with more overly emotional hyperbole and then in my opinion some utter bullshit:

However, I stick by MY belief that on THIS site, an UNMARKED post of THIS nature is not appropriate. In fact, I was NOT told I would see young US guys getting shot in the head before viewing it. If I had been, as you are on my stories as regards content, I could have chosen to ignore those links as I would have.

I think these two statements that were included in the first post makes it pretty clear what the content is:

Here is the second episode of Baghdad Sniper Filmography (Juba 2 ) which reveals the tragedy of U.S infantry in Baghdad - the well controlled territory by Americans

This footage presents just a small part of the sniping operations occurred in this year, since the last Juba's documentary release
Juba killed 668 U.S soldiers with his [Dragunov] Sniper Rifle, none of those operations were declared by the media of U.S army or T.V channels, although there strong presence during invasion of Iraq and Baghdad fall

Now, where I also see a lot of hypocrisy in this issue is that I would point out that TWO different people posted pictures of Saddam’s hanging and I don’t recall a single protest that the content of those videos were not appropriate for this forum.

And finally what I am speaking out against is what I see as an increasing trend to ban forum members for posting things that we don’t like or agree with. To me that is censorship and as I’ve already said I will oppose censorship because it means I can be censored for the same reasons, because it takes away my right to view and read whatever I want, and because it puts me in agreement with the same people who want to censor or outlaw pornography.

We might not agree but I will stand by my statements and beliefs on this issue. But I will also look with suspicion and perhaps even point it out the next time some of the people on this forum say something the equivalent of “I may disagree with what you are saying but will defend to the death your right to say it. I might just have to call a bullshit on that one.

PS As an American I am bombarded constantly with the images of dead and dieing Iraqis on a daily basis. But we call that the news. How about their mothers and loved ones? I don't hear or see anyone crying for their peace of mind.

 

I hope you will continue to point out the things you see as hypocritical and bullshit, particularly on this forum. I won't always agree with you, as I don't on this issue, but I would hate to lose your voice.

 

I was going to say I have to agree with Stumbler, but as I was writing it I realised I am fortunate that I live in a country where I don't have to agree with anyone. But I do agree with Stumbler and Voltaire on this point.

 

Well J.A.W. since I've never even been able to make myself shutup I doubt there is much danger of that.

 

To quote Voltaire "Your book is dedicated by the soundest reason. You had better get out of France as quickly as you can."

One of the opening quotes from Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do by Peter McWilliams.

 

A witty saying proves nothing, Voltaire

 

Ok, so this thread is now about freedom of speech.
If so I have to say that the internet is the last and only place where it is allowed to thrive. I hate the thing that the KKK says and prints but it is there freedom to permiate their beliefs and views even though I don't agree with them. But I understand the frustration and anger after being decieved, when you are told one thing and it turns out to be somethings else, especially if its something that you don't approve of. Freedom of speech is one thing and delibrate and willful deception is something else. So maybe we don't feed the trolls on this one either. But hey that's just my opinion.

 

I'm quite certain of this!

However, twisting my words, and ignoring my main points doesn't make me agree with you.

However, for those that feel cheated and outraged and demand to know what has been STOLEN from them:

You only need do a search at goggle.com on:

Juba's documentary

You will soon find the original video files if you WANT to see extreme, illegal violence the equal or WORSE than any child porn, which although it shows young American VICTIMS, killed like pigs and their images used without their permissions by men that WANT you to hate and spread that hate, at least Stumbler will feel much better, since justice as HE sees it is being served. So remember that gift of hate and revolution is partially from Stumbler to you.

I wash my hands of it!

Want to cry out in pain? I understand, especially those that have children there, or lovers, brothers etc.

But tell Stumbler how you feel please, not me, after all HE is:

The King of Free Speech!

 

I can accept Stumblers points about censorship but I think Fanfictions thoughts go deeper than this. The video's are of some crawling little shit who is too afraid to come out and be visible. The fact that it is US troops he is shooting is in some ways not relevant (no disrespect to the victims). If the film was of a US sniper shooting Iraqi's or a Russian sniper shooting Chetyens I'm guessing FF would be saying the same thing.
Yes it happens, yes there are shits on all sides, but scumbag films of this nature do nothing to resolve the situation they only pour petrol on the flames.

 

Am I the only one that sees this as a totally different issues?
Suddam was charged, and executed by will of the prosecutors. His hanging was a statement that was known, and he died for the crimes he committed. It wasn't glorifying senseless killing.