"Information collection is a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intel that can be used against them. In this technique a light and positive environment of a ‘show you mine now show me yours’ posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your ‘favourite weapon’ and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. From this some members can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly tracking."

Carry on :excited:

 

You might want to take a look at this thread. I don't see how you could have missed it on a search. Its the exact same title as your thread except on this thread Guns is capitalized.

But if you're looking for a thread for gun enthusiasts this is it.

https://forum.xnxx.com/showthread.php?t=171577&highlight=guns

 

I understand what you are getting at, of course in a "war" civilians would not stand a chance, that is not even a debate. In my opinion it is more about principles that anything else. In order to try and give you an actual reason behind it, I would say that in an unarmed society, the armed government only needs to make their demand and of course noone will argue because their government has arms and the population does not. The government in this scenario can make make their demands knowing that its population has no choice but to follow, and using their own military on their own population would never happen. If however the population has the right to arms, the government will have to face opening fire on their own population or bend to the will of the people. A single man with a deer rifle can change history. It has happened before. The population cannot win a war, but they can put their government in check. I believe that if a large developed nation started opening fire on its own population the rest of the world might have something to say about it. Bad PR and all.

I don't claim to be wise, knowledgable, or any more intelligent than anyone else, I am just another guy with an opinion. This is just my personal opinion on the right to bear arms, and why it was written into our constitution(refer to Thomas Jefferson quote). I could be bass ackwards, but I will stick to my guns on this subject(no pun intended), as I feel very strongly about it.

 

First let me complement you on your excellent arguments and reasoned response. Very refreshing, especially when it comes to something as emotional as "guns.

Then let me confess I also thought and firmly believed when I first came on this forum that the "greatest safeguard to democracy is a well armed populace." But I came to see that as first fool hardy, and more importantly not really supported by our modern reality. Which is a case of extremes. We've got Switzerland where a gun in the home is nearly required, places like the UK where gun ownership is strictly regulated, and places like Japan where you can't even talk about guns let alone own one. I don't think anyone would argue those are not successful democracies and two of the three don't have many guns or rights to own them.

Also on the other side there are many examples of very well armed people and groups getting slaughtered by our government so opening fire on citizens (even unarmed college students) has not been a deterrent even with all our guns.

 

Thank you, and I return the compliment, It is a refreshing change to gain insight as oppose to senseless cursing, and name-calling to no benefit or conclusion.

I am curious about the examples of of our government firing on civilians, was it military or police? and what was the reasoning for opening fire? I would like to hope that if the majority of the populace of a nation took up arms, the government would decide killing the majority of their population would be a mistake. I am aware that it happens, and their are recent examples of that, but in a developed country? On my part it is hopeful thinking for the "worst case scenario", that keeps me supporting the right to bear arms. I believe(read, hope) in the United States, that on a national level the population would come out on top.

Whether you are liberal or conservative, pro-gun, or anti-gun, I think we can all agree that we hope for the best outcome. We all just have different opinions on how best to achieve and maintain our freedom. I respect that other peoples opinions differ from my own, its part of life.

 

The examples I'm thinking about was the Philadelphia riots and Kent State as two examples.

And I certainly don't have a problem with our second amendment rights or the supreme court interpretation of them. I was born and raised with guns and have kept and used them all my life. My objection is that as it stands now we've got a lot more gun rights than we have gun sense and yet most people don't even want to talk about the simplest and most pragmatic solutions. Even things like safety training are unacceptable.

 

I agree with you 100%, there are far more guns than gun sense. I grew up with guns, and as far back as I can remember I have been shooting, meaning I was young enough the first time I shot a gun i can't recall that event. As a result I learned from an early age, gun sense. Mandatory firearms safety education won't make anything better, I agree with you on that as well. Firearms education is most effective when it starts at home. My friends that have kids take them out shooting and train them from an early age, and even at very young ages their kids have more respect, and understanding of guns than your average American adult.

I think where our opinions differ, is that I do not believe that legislation will change anything. My view on gun control laws is the same as my view on locks. Locks only keep honest people honest. Gun control laws only acknowledge honest people will continue to be honest. The ease with which an individual can buy a "black market" gun is such that the law will never catch up. Is not having laws the solution? I don't think so, but further restrictions won't have any effect on the number of guns in irresponsible hands. I don't know what the solution is, and honestly I just can believe that more laws will have an effect on gun violence. I can't believe it because in the United States there is no example that I am aware of, where gun control laws reduced gun violence. All comes down to opinions in the end though..

 

if you think about it that does not sum up anything

 

You don't have any locks on your doors? Or you don't lock your doors?

 

I do have locks, but they don't keep the bad guys out. A home security system would be a deterrent to burglars and such, but I don't have that. Locks eliminate any possible temptation to people who are not real criminals. The real criminals are not dissuaded by a locked door or window. That is my best explanation for, "locks only keep honest people honest."

 

Then I don't think your analogy holds up.

But let me ask you another question. How come we require people to have a drivers license, and liability insurance on their vehicles but we don't do that with guns.

Because if you read this thread you'd also know that one of my biggest complaints is loaded guns falling out of elementary kids pockets at school. Is that OK?

 

To your first question, I would guess it comes down to money, It would cost the government, and gun owners a lot of money to put into effect, and continuously enforce those kinds of laws on guns in a country with 300 million people. That is only speculation though. playing devils advocate again, is it not true that people drive cars without licenses and insurance? My point is, is that even with those laws in place, there is a certain percentage of people who will simply not comply. Hence my theory that the cost of enforcement of such laws prevents them from being written.

My answer to your second question will i'm sure light some fires, but again, this is just my personal theory. I do not think it is ok at all for elementary school(or any school children) to be packing loaded guns ANYWHERE! I would speculate that most of those guns come from a kids parents(an 8 year old isn't likely to be buying guns from the local gangbanger?). The parents should be held accountable for these cases, they are obviously not responsible enough to own guns if their kids are able to get their hands on them and bring them to school. I would suggest legislation for these kinds of incidents. the parents should have the right to bear arms revoked, and should be subject to random inspections to be sure they have no arms in their homes. If people don't like it they need to spend the time with their kids(shock and awe) and educate them in the home on responsible handling of firearms, put them through firearms safety classes, and finally keep all firearms out of reach of their kids, whether in a place where a child simply can't reach them, or locked up so there is no access. If you won't take responsibility and educate your kids, then you are not responsible enough to own guns at all.

 

I grew up in a gunless society but started using them at the age of 16 when I enlisted, before we even touched a rifle we were given safety lectures, all very simple stuff, never pick up a gun without checking if it is loaded or not, do not point a gun at someone in jest, and so on.

I respect guns and know how to use them safely so that only the enemy is in any danger from me.

The problem in the US is that people can and do get guns without any safety training, idiotic parents leave them laying around for kiddies to pick up and shoot each other, having a gun for safety while you sleep is the hardest thing to control the gun needs to be loaded and ready to shoot but also needs to be kept safe from kids in the house.

The worst case of stupidity I read was of a father allowing his 10 year old sun to fire a machine pistol on his birthday (a Mac 10 I think), the kid pulled the trigger and lost control of the recoil and shot himself in the head. Very sad and very preventable.

 

Sad firearms accidents do happen, and yes buying a gun in the states does not require any training. What I have been trying to get at though, is that even if you require training, it won't fix the problem. It is incredibly easy to buy guns in the states on the "black market". that particular market won't require its customers to receive proper training before selling a firearm.

You can't fix stupid, no matter how many laws are put in place, people will continue to be stupid by any means necessary. In the states there are so many guns that are available outside of gun stores that they cannot be tracked, and therefore cannot be controlled.

Education is the answer for sure, but how do you educate everyone who will pick up a gun? I am obviously pro-gun, but I am well aware that there are many problems that need to be addressed, I just can't comprehend how making laws will fix the problems, with the exception of possibly people who get their rights revoked being subject to random inspections. Even that would be difficult to enforce well enough to be effective, but that is the only possible scenario I can think of where laws might make a difference. legislation restricting the purchase of arms or the type of arms is futile, that battle cannot be won.

 

I'll be back on moday, Stumbler, I appreciate your intelligent conversation on the subject. Will look forward to hearing more of your opinions, and rebuttals to my statements. Its a refreshing change to actually be given a reason why I should change my position. Thanks for that

 

I'm going to jump in here just for a second.

As some of you know, i'm a "card carrying conservative". I own several weapons. I live in Arizona. I carry sometimes.

That being said, I don't ALWAYS go along with some of the laws on the books regarding gun ownership. Right now in my state, I do NOT have a waiting period. I do NOT have to register my handguns. I CAN carry concealed without any permit. I CAN have as large a magazine capacity as desired.

When you go to a gun store, you fill out a Federal form, they fax it to the FBI, and they get an instant go-no go response back in 10 minutes. You are out the door with or without your gun. Go to any swapmeet and there are people selling guns. No background check,nothing. This is where I disagree. I am all for a national database that mental health professionals MUST enter patient names into so as to delay, or exclude persons from being approved for buying any gun or rifle. Also, I feel that ANYONE selling a firearm HAS to be licensed, with access to the NICS database before they can transfer a weapon.

 

Very sensible ideas.

I cannot understand how people are allowed to purchase guns with no transfer of ownership certificate. The gun can be registered to you and the guy you sell it to could commit a few crimes with it and it is traced back to you, lazy policing could lead to a long time in a cell.

I do like guns, I like to feel the recoil of a good shot and see the target drop, but I would not like to live in a country where anyone can get a weapon by legal or illegal means. Far to many idiots with guns ruin the fun for everyone else.

 

Perhaps a better idea would be to enforce the laws on the books right now.

It would also help if our own government wasn't involved in illegal gun running operations.

 

What defeats this argument here is the experience we've already had on our highways. 50 years ago there were vitrually no insurance requirements and hardly any drunk driving laws. But as more and more people got cars, and more and more people caused accidents, and more and more people got killed and maimed, then the more and more cries for justice and revenge went up. And not surprising in the US they tackled the money problem first; pass laws to make people carry liability insurance, and then eventually getting serious about drunk driving.

Now when we compare our current statistics I'm afraid its time to rein in our gun carnage.

Opps Ok lets stop right there for a second on the not responsible enough own guns. What do you propose we should do about that? Because some of those guns end up shooting other students in the head by accident.

First I thought you were against "legislation" of gun rights. But I'm all ears. What kind of legislation would you propose?

Ok now we are talking about the government going into someone's home to register and monitor their guns? That's going to be supported by the NRA?

But if we've got loaded guns falling our of Kindergarteners pockets that they picked up at home we don't have that do we?

This is a much better way of thinking. And since I have often referenced her on this forum it was none other than my dear old hysterical Grandmother who first taught me how to shoot a gun. But the first thing she taught was how to be safe with guns. All the time. Everytime. Because it takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger but you can never take that shot back.

PS I've got a couple of them now but handguns where not allowed in our house. And that was not grandma's rule. That was Grandpa's rule from when he and a bunch of friends were playing with one and the kid that accidentally got shot between the eyes landed in his lap.

I would have never expected this out of you. But between you and me I think you've got enough sense to own a gun.

But as much as I respect and admire the second amendment I've had enough of these stupid fuckers that don't respect guns. God Damn you got to know what they really are and what they really do and not confuse them with our dick.

 

Okay. Here's what you don't understand. A gun is so ingrained into my life, that not-having a firearm is an alien concept to me. I mean. Simply put: What are you going to do if somone breaks in ? You're gonna want a weapon, right ? I mean. Maybe you can beat them in a pysical fight, but.... maybe you cant ? See my point ?

I've always had a gun. It's like a part of who I am. That 1911 is always going to shoot when I want it to, and hit what I want it to. I got this gun, because I realize that there are people out there are are bigger, and meaner, and tougher than me. That if they broke in and I had to trade blows with these guys, my ass would get killed and my fiance would probably get raped and killed too. That's just how the world works.

Calling me a coward for using a gun, is like calling a lion a coward for using it's claws. My claws just make a lot more noise.