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You have already brought up this Pascal's Wager. And I don't lose. I think I gave very valid and logical answers to all of the faults that you pointed out regarding the wager. I have already posted this on the first page of the thread but I will post it again for you. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POINT OUT ANYTHING YOU FEEL TO BE ILLOGICAL OR NOT VALID.


1. I guess I chose Christianity because it is of my culture and as I read the bible I related to Jesus and his beliefs on hypocrisy, corruption, and greed by an authority in power. Most religions share the same basic principle of do on to brother as you would have done to you. The christian God is shared by three major religions. He is essentially the God of Abraham which is shared by the Islamic, Jewish and Christian religions. I guess the Christian version was just much more accessible where I live.

2. Doesn't really apply to my beliefs as i do not believe in organized religion and do not waste my time or money on it. The time that I do spend focused and thinking of God is enjoyable and makes up part of my meditation.

3. I personally disagree to this idea that belief is something that is impulsive. I think that an impulsive belief is basically the same as ignorance. The more you learn the more you know. My personally opinions and beliefs change constantly as I learn new things about a situation.

As for my religious belief when I started to think of how much we actually scientifically about things such as infinity of space and such. I realized that we are lost. Like a blind man in a gymnasium, we are lost and clueless until we can at least touch a wall. In other words, although science has made leaps and bounds in discovering the world around us. We really dont even know where we are! Science continually contradicts itself as well. Generation after generation, century after century.

As I clearly do not believe that science has any sign of understanding things at the level of "God" or the universe. I personally chose to believe in god. If science does disprove god with out doubt. I will change my belief. There for beliefs, in my case anyway, are able to change based on circumstance.

4. I think Christian belief is more than just a feeling that you have. It is more of the way that you live your life. Therefore you would not have to "trick" god like you would a police officer. It is in your actions and the was you live your life and treat others.

 

You again make a mistake about science, there is no target of "that's it we know all", with every breakthrough there are dozens of questions asked, so the learned ladies and gentlemen probe, test prove and disprove, throw up theories and watch them get torn down to be replaced with the nest one, we look and continue to find things because we move forward.
We are not lost, we know exactly where we are, which is right here and now, so how can we be lost, when slowly we unravel every mystery, every question that is asked.

What happens to you when every tenet of your belief is torn down, you apparently think you can say "Oh well you were right I was wrong", but that goes against faith, which is the base tenet of religion.

 

My question, Do you believe that an atheist, that leads a positive, morally good life, will go to heaven despite not believing in God or Jesus Christ?

 

No Rich, like I said SO MANY times before. I do not take the bible literally. There is no "cherry picking". It is more like the idea of understanding the big picture. The underlining theme of the teachings of Christ. Can you comprehend that?

I see it as a spiritual guide. I relate the stories of the bible to things in my own life. The time spent reading these pleasant little stories of kindness and advice is relaxing and enjoyable. It gives me a chance to reflect on the things that are going on in my own life. I see the teachings of Christ as general theme. A big picture. A way of treating people really. No rituals, rules, etc. This is the true and purest form of Jesus' teachings.

It is irrelevant whether the stories are 100% true or not!

 

Okay. So.

One: Pascal's Wager doesn't work, because it makes the supposition that belief in a deity is a choice. It's not. Either your brain is wired to believe at time x, or it's not. End of story. Using it as a justification to believe anything is ridiculous.

Secondly: Brazi, you have indicated through your words that you consider belief in a deity logical. It has been pointed out (by Heyesey, who has a brain far better than mine) that this is incorrect, and the reason is as follows: logic retains a very specific set of rules and operations. What defines logic is not what the general population think logic is. Your belief in a deity is, in fact, illogical, because it supposes the existence of a being that cannot be described by any known logical system without running into either absurdity or paradox, and all in the face of an overwhelming lack of evidence. Such actions are illogical. To put it simply: believing in the existence of something for which there is neither proof nor proved necessity is illogical.

Third: You appear to have a skewed view of science. If you can find me a scientist who claims to 'know it all' then I will eat my foot, bones and all.

 

Yet you cannot tell me what the teachings of christ are, as you have no honest reference. And yes you are cherrypicking the bible, you are taking the bits you like and then stating the rest are allegorical.

So if it doesn't matter if the stories are true or not then you have no care if you base your belief system on lies.

 

So if you admit that you don't know all. How can you without doubt tell me that I am wrong for believing in a god?

What I mean by lost is that we have no idea what is around us. Not that we have someplace to go. Since we don't have even a notion of a fraction of the "mass" which surrounds this tiny planet. And has been proven to be very REAL. The universe. How can you without doubt tell me that I am wrong for believing in a god?

Yes, Well like I said before. Four years ago. I changed from my life long ignorant atheist beliefs and said that I was wrong.

If science were to prove that god was actually alien civilization or something. I would again say I was wrong and change my beliefs yet again and continue following much of the Christian lifestyle and philosophies. but I dont think that is going any time soon.

 

So there maybe a chance that there is a god, but that chance is so low that you have a better chance of wining the lottery, being crowned King of England and winning the US presidential election all on the same day while having your dick sucked by Marilyn Monroe in Trafalgar Square on a wet Wednesday morning, so forgive me for laughing at your archaic beliefs, and I will forgive you for calling atheists ignorant.

 

I dont know. But it does say in the bible that you must except god... The bible is corrupted for the use of power and control. This specific part it is essential for the power element and the Romans would have had very good reason to add a "clause" like this in to it.

 

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My point is that if you believe people who don't accept Jesus can go to heaven, then faith in Jesus and God is unnecessary, and therefor a worthless religion. If on the other hand you believe that people who don't accept Jesus will not go to heaven, then the basis for heaven is purely geography, location, where you were born etc.

I assume you don't believe in Zeus, Apollo, Allah etc. All atheism is, is taking it one god futher.

Also I have trouble believing you are a former atheist. I get the impression, that you believed in a god of some sort, but just did not follow the teachings. That is a very different thing

 

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That is not true.

I feel sorry for people who are so spiritually retarded that they have absolutely no ability to connect with or recognize the spiritual world. It can be seen in things like dreams, dejavu, telepathy, just having the feeling that something is going to happen, good deeds coming back to us. We all experience it daily. Some just dont recognize it. Fortunately, the spiritually restarted are still a VERY SMALL minority.

The answer is not as simple as yes or no. Especially about something as unknown and difficult to comprehend... like a God. When asked "Do you believe that a God exists?" A very valid, intelligent and common answer could be "I really don't know!" At this point does the person automatically get defaulted to the side of a non believer without thinking more of religion and happily carry on his life as an atheist? Or does he have the opportunity to look at the things and information around him and then come to a conclusion about his beliefs. It is possible. because I have done it. I do truly and honestly believe in god and spirituality. I dont know exactly what it is. But I know it is there. Five or six years ago I would have laughed at it and said all that same old shit that you guys have been saying on this thread.

The truth is that it is much more complex then what science can comprehend at the moment. And I do observe things that happen on what I can only describe as a divine level. Therefore I chose to believe in God.

I was using the word with the meaning in which the general population understands. I followed what information I had.. and didnt have. I came to a conclusion that that makes just as much sense as the opposite view.

Well I said this to you earlier in the thread. You told me that Scientist did know what was out there and that was "Matter" lol

So if you agree that he have absolutely no idea what kind of what exactly those giant masses of matter are or contain. How can you tell me that I am wrong and illogical?

Current logical systems are not even close to being valid in a conversation on this topic.

 

What I'm getting from you is, The universe exists, humans exist. Science can't explain this (it can to a very measurable extent by the way) therefor god must of done it.

And not just any god, a specific one. One with specific views, a god who had a son, so he could be killed to pay for our sins. And the evidence for it being this god, and not some other one, is a 1700 year old book, written by men, with at the very closest, 3rd or 4th hand accounts of jesus. A person for which no historical evidence supports.

Not all that logical by any sense of the word to be honest

 

My spirituality does not include thinking much about heaven and hell. I believe in god and subscribe to a christian lifestyle. Through Jesus' teachings. This is what I am supposed to do.

As I said before, The bible is corrupted. Some thing like the belief in a one and only god could very well "logically" be one of those corruptions used for political reasons. Therefore, in my own opinion "good people" of other religions could very well be considered for heaven. But I don't know. I am christian so I don't worry about that. Most other major religions do not have a "Hell" and teach very similar principals as christian. So I am ok in their eyes too.

Allah is the god of Abraham... the same as my god. Jesus is even mentioned as a profit in the.

Atheism is not just talking it one step further. It is the belief in no god. I still be leave in a god.

5-6 years ago I would have been saying the same thing as you guys. I was ignorant to what was actually the the depth of possibility and the vast and unknown reality that we make part of. The universe. I became aware of the spiritual world and through my observations I found that God was very much real. And Christianity was a good, kind way of life. Unlike the imagery and violent and repressive history that I had confused for Christianity.

 

I barely know where to begin with this, mate...!

Dreams are neurologically explainable. Deja vu is not well understood, but there is nothing whatsoever to indicate that it is not scientifically explainable. Telepathy is complete nonsense; never proven under reasonable experimental conditions, so it is logical to presume it does not exist. Again, show me where it has been proved under reasonable experimental conditions, and the offer to eat my foot still stands. The feeling that 'something is going to happen' is a result of the subconscious, coupled with the curiously human ability to forget the negatives and remember the positives. Remember all those times that you walked to the store late at night, and a guy came out the store when you were twenty yards away, walked towards you - and your adrenaline pumped and you were ready to fight and then he got in his car and you laughed at yourself? No, you don't - because we're not wired to. But you remember the time you woke up, drove to work, and thought, "I bet Nick gets pulled up by the boss today, I just have that feeling.." However, the negatives happen far less than the positives, and what's actually happened is that, subconsciously, you've processed the cues that went on over the previous days and weeks and predicted, quite outwith your conscious knowledge, that something might happen. Recent research indicates that our subconscious mind makes decisions several milliseconds in advance of our conscious mind, and we then rationalise it with our conscious mind.

Good deeds coming back to us, or 'karma' as it's often known, is nonsense, and another example of our subconscious mind rationalising what happens to us in reference to what we've done. You've forgotten all the times you were good to people and nothing good or out of the ordinary happened to you, for obvious reasons.

I would also love to know what these things are that you observe that are not scientifically explainable. There is a difference, remember, between 'not scientifically explainable' and 'not scientifically explainable at this current time' or, perhaps more to the point, 'I am not aware of a scientific explanation through the inevitable limitations of my own knowledge'.

Your conclusion that God exists is significantly less rational and makes significantly less 'real' sense than the alternative - God does not exist. You are believing in an entity for which there is no evidence whatsoever, regardless of what you might choose to believe. The proof simply isn't there. There is no pudding, to paraphrase. I honestly do not understand how you can look at the world around you and believe that it is more logical to believe in an entity for which there is neither proof nor necessity.

What is 'out there' is matter. Atoms, protons, quarks, perhaps even superstrings. The minutiae are not completely or perfectly understood, but we know more about the universe around us than ever before, and our knowledge continues to grow. The same cannot be said of your knowledge of God, or anyone else's knowledge. Science strives to know; belief in a God circumvents that by giving flat, two-dimensional answers.

I absolutely do not agree that the scientist can have no idea of what the giant masses of matter are or contain. All he has to do is point a radio-telescope at a star or dust cloud, investigate the absorption and emission spectra, and bingo! He can tell you almost exactly what percentage of elements make up the star or dust-cloud. What more do you want? A piece of it to hold in your hand? He can tell you the size of the star, predict its lifespan, tell you if there are planets around it and probably how many, tell you if it's a binary star, tell you how far away the planets orbit, predict the likely elemental make-up of the planets and if there is likely to be water... the list goes on.

You are illogical because you argue against science without having any apparent knowledge of what science can do.

 

No not ..."Therefore god must have done it". Do you never experience spiritual (supernatural) feelings or events. Have you never sworn that you were in a situation before?? Have you never picked up the telephone to call a friend and he was already on the other line?? etc...

I have said so many times that I as many Christians, do not take the bible literally. Nor does it say that it should be taken word for word. It does not matter what it exactly says. The spirit of Jesus is easy to see for any one who has read the bible. Christian or atheist. Do well to your brother when you have the opportunity. And forgive those who wrong you and you will be forgiven for your wrongs.

 

If you continue to keep moving the goal posts, then a discussion is a waste of time.

The description I gave of christianity is a fair one for any christian. Basically it is just an aknowledgement of Jesus christ, and that he died for our sins.

If you don't believe in those claims, then I am really confused as to why you call yourself a christian

 

I completely agree.