Bin Laden was our ally in Afghanistan. If "friend" doesn't meet your definition.

Which is what I'm saying is at the base of our terrorist problems. All we have to do to see that is look at Saddam Hussein. We (the CIA/US) helped him rise to dictator and then kept him there for decades.

It does not do much good to hang a dictator for killing his own people after you first sold him the chemicals to do it with.

We may not be aware of it, but those people are never going to forget it or forgive I don't believe.

 

i have worked in the middle east

whatever books you are reading don't match with my real life experience

and Saudi Arabia is in no way a democracy
nor are most of the gulf states

and poverty is rife out there

and Arabs do not love America there leaders do but the people don't
most don't hate America but they resent the wests double standards and hypocrisy

 

Iraq may have been better with Saddam around. SCIRI is no better...

I'm still not convinced Arabs are ready for democracy but that's for another thread...

 

I've talked with dozens of youths from Palestine and Lebanon. One of them is my friend. They love America.

 

NO they want to live in America to escape the poverty of there life

most i have met would love to have the freedoms American supported governments deny them at home

they might want to live in your country they don't love your governments actions

 

And I have contact with many from the Middle East, both Arab and Jewish, the Arabs seem to appreciate us more than the Jews.

One of our close friends is Egyptian, a legal immigrant and a moderate Muslim. His opinion is that all fundamentalist Muslims should be corralled in the desert and nuked.

 

I say if you like the idea of America, you like America.

 

your wrong

they dont any more than the Irish who came to England to escape poverty liked the idea of what england was doing in there country

 

False comparison. The Irish who came to Britain never really "loved" Britain...

 

thats what i said and the Arabia that come to America don't really love what America dose they like living there and thats all

the UK / Ireland and USA /Arabia comparisons are quite valid

 

No, they aren't. The Irish never really admired the idea of Great Britain. Hell, that's why they became republicans...

Arabs love the idea of America and the freedoms associated with it.

 

i never said they did

what i said was Arabs love the freedoms and wealth of America but at the same time resent that America supports governments that deny them those freedoms at home.

 

They may resent our actions, it doesn't mean they hate us...

..and again, we don't deny them freedoms at home. Look at what happened to Mubarak!

For the past 30 years, the US has supported organic democratic uprisings in the Middle East...

 

rubbish

they have the same feelings to you and the USA that Irish Americans have to the UK

and Egypt has no oil so the USA and the West dose not care

see what the the good old democratic US of A dose if a popular democratic uprising threatens to bring democracy to Saudi or Kuwait

and that will be a not so pro American government

live in the real word

their is no democracy in the oil rich states and we support them.

 

What would YOU have us do?

 

If we look at Egypt right now one would have agree you might be right. But I'm not convinced mostly because of who is behind the uprisings and how they are organizing, conducting and spreading them.

Its mostly young (under 35) computer and internet savvy people who have seen how the rest of the world lives and decided that's the way they want to live as well. I think that would be like a speed course in democracy if they can get the henchmen out of the way.

From what I'm reading that's the problem in Egypt. Many people fear its just the same old power structure without Murbarak, which of course sets off a power struggle. But its a lot harder to pull off a power play if the world is watching.

That's why I think they will eventually get it right if given the chance. But if I'm woefully wrong about that it won't be the first time.

 

Man did you ever hit it right on the head with this one. And its just glaring hypocrisy on our part. We will send the whole world of media to cover what's happening in Egypt, Syria, Libya, and a few other places.

But not even Al Jazeera is reporting on what's going on in Saudi Arabia and Behrain and the other places with huge US investments. No not a peep about the detentions, killing and tactics being used to quell protests in those countries.

 

What the general populations of Muslim states knew of America was what in the past was fed to them by mostly state controlled media, contact with and observations of American corporations that are striping wealth through the assistance of the American government and contact with American Military forces.

What these general populations of Arab states know of America now is mostly from new access to the internet than state controlled media and along with that, the blogs and forums which make it clear internally from U.S. citizens themselves speaking of the corruption of U.S. government supported American corporations along with the true reasons for the U.S. invasion of Iraq being oil, support of dictatorial subversive Arabian governments and American foreign policies that dictate protection of American interests at any cost.

Along with us in the west, the Islamic populations fully realize that these American supported corporations and American individuals are becoming rich at their expense and have been for decades.

So, do they love the U.S.? I don't think so. But I believe they do love the thought of the freedoms enjoyed in America and the freedom from fear of their governments which again is enjoyed in America.

The problem is that past history has shown that when America gets involved and boots hit the ground, they seldom leave and again American interest become wealthy at the expense of Islamic general populations.
Until that policy is revised, nothing will change as to the attitudes towards America. Not just from Islamic states, but globally.

 

I was with you on everything except the last part I highlighted and even in that regard all I wanted to say was I don't think past history is going to be a viable guide when it comes to guessing what will come out of the Arab Spring Uprisings.

And that is because I don't think this has ever happened before and the impact of the internet was so terribly underestimated that no one I know of, and I'm talking the best spy networks in the world on all sides, saw it coming.

Its almost humorous to watch some groups like Al Qaeda try to claim they had something to do with it after the fact and it totally discredits them.

While at the same time the uprisings continue and seem to effect every country in the region one way or the other. And while I would never believe our government if they said the spreading of democracy might have a domino effect I actually do believe that would be the case here.

 

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