You know I think even one documented site is a lot better than some fool just sitting there running their mouth. I can find lots more sources documenting how the Christian church burned books for hundreds of years when they were burning Jews at the stake for being witches.

That's a lot better than you trying to spread your own brand of bullshit.

So if you've got sources that claim Christians did burn libraries and books lets see them or admit you are the one making up bullshit.

 

Well, anyone can write a page on the internet saying what they like; the one you've used has no footnotes and cites no sources. This is hardly a 'documented' site - the opposite, in fact.

The simple fact remains: I can find evidence of singular occasions of Christian-led destruction of knowledge, usually against specific persons or treatises, or against specific religious ideologies. What I am consistently failing to find is precisely that which you have asserted: that the Christians set out on a methodical and widespread destruction of the sum total of pre-Christian knowledge.

You'll remember that I said a 'credible source'. One website like that is not a credible source.

 

Most of our knowledge of ancient pagan literature comes from manuscripts copied many centuries after the original manuscripts were written. Many, if not most of these manuscripts were copied by Christian monks in Christian monasteries.

 

I wish I knew more history. I'm constantly having to check everything !

 

Tell you what Orion lets see your "credible sources" because I'm finding lots of confirmation like this but I see you demanding credible when I don't see any sources from anyone else.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm
​

 

I'm sorry, Stumbler. If that were properly credible, every statement you've posted there would have a citation against it. I can see one that is already falsifiable from what I've read - that Theodosius II ordered all non-Christian books to be burnt. He certainly ordered one particular writer's works to be burned, as I illustrated above.

Secondly, that source is not what I'd call lacking in bias. The notes are taken from a book (Summarised from Vlasis Rassias' book "DEMOLISH THEM..", published in Greek, Athens 2000 (2nd edition)) that is used on the webpage of the following organisation: Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes, also known as the YSEE.

Let's have a look at what the YSEE stands for, shall we?

The Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes (Ypato Symboulio Ellinon Ethnikon - YSEE) has the legal entity of a Non Profit Organization (NPO) and was founded in June of 1997 aiming to the morale and physical protection and restoration of the Polytheistic, Ethnic Hellenic religion, tradition and way of life in the "modern" Greek Society from which is oppressed due to its institutalised intolerance and theocracy.​

Let's just say that these aren't people I'd invite to teach University seminars, because I wouldn't be able to guarantee that what they said would put accuracy ahead of bias.

Furthermore, most of the dealings mentioned relate to the destruction of pagan temples and places of worship, not to the systematic destruction of knowledge. I find no (credible) source that confirms Theodosius II ordered all non-Christian books burnt - and even if he did, would that include treatises on, say, mechanics?

And here's the thing you're missed, Stumbler. Nestorius was an Archbishop of Constantinople. This wasn't some pagan writer; this was an Archbishop who's teachings were deemed heretical, and is indeed responsible for what's now known as the Nestorian Schism. Hardly Christian-on-pagan brutality.

Once again, Stumbler, I reiterate: I am not arguing that the Christians persecuted the pagans. I am not even arguing that libraries were not burnt I am arguing that you do not have sufficient evidence to back up your claim that pre-pagan writings were utterly and systematically eradicated - something that can plainly be seen as nonsense, since the scholarly tradition of monastic scribes are the reason we have so many surviving texts today.

I am also arguing, for what it's worth, that you don't know what a credible source is.

 

For what it's worth: the following book: A Greek Roman Empire: Power and Belief Under Theodosius II (408-450) By Fergus Millar, viewable in Google Books, makes absolutely no mention of Theodosius II ordering any writings burnt save the works of Nestorius.

A note on the author:
Sir Fergus Graham Burtholme Millar FBA (born 5 July 1935) is a British historian and Camden Professor of Ancient History Emeritus, Oxford University. He received the Kenyon Medal for Classics from the British Academy in 2005. Millar numbers among the most influential ancient historians of the twentieth century.

Millar was educated at Trinity College (B.A.) and All Souls College, Oxford. At Oxford he studied Philosophy and Ancient History, and received his D. Phil. degree there in 1962.

He has held positions in University College, London and Oxford University, where, from 1984 until his retirement in 2002, he was Camden Professor of Ancient History.

Millar has served as editor of the Journal of Roman Studies (1975–1979) and as President of the British Classical Association (1992–1993), and holding various offices in the British Academy, to which he was elected a Fellow in 1976.

Millar is an authority in the field of ancient Roman and Greek history. His accolades include honorary doctorates from Oxford and Helsinki, and elected memberships in foreign academies. His first book, A Study of Cassius Dio (1964), set the tone for his prolific scholarly production. He has continued to produce important works, including The Roman Near East (31 BC – AD 337) (1993), a path breaking, non-Romano-centric treatment of this area. His further work includes The Crowd in the Late Republic (1998*) and The Roman Republic in Political Thought (2002).

He was knighted in the 2010 Queen's Birthday Honours.

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/inquisition/Chapter14.htm

Still not seeing any of your "credible" sources from you that disproves any of this Orion. If you have more 'credible' sources please post them.

 

Who is Fergus Millar? Could he be one of those "Christian apologist" and revisionists I've been reading about this morning?

From his background it does not look like he would be willing to be critical of Christian wrong doing.

Does Millar say no such decree ever existed?

 

As regards Amantius: the only printed source I can find tells me the following:

Emperor Justinian's other hatchet man, the notorious Inquisitor Amantius, goes off to Antioch to find, arrest, torture, and murder the last non-Christians of the city and burns down all the private libraries.​

On the other hand, the book is called The Greatest Story Ever Forged (Curse of the Christ Myth). The author's website is not very encouraging; great prominence is placed on his Ph.D, though it's not mentioned what his Ph.D is actually for.

The book contains a 'sected bibliography'. Sadly, it is not complete in the Google Books source.

The book contains no footnotes. It is impossible align assertion with source, and so the usefulness of the bibliography - even if it were complete - is hugely limited.

 

I beg your pardon? What kind of assertion is that?!

His history makes no mention of his religious leanings; you're grasping at straws. It's impossible to say that he would be likely to deny realities in early Christian history; to make judgements like that, based no 'his background' - which seems entirely secular and scholarly to me - is nothing short of slanderous.

And, for God's sake, why would Miller say it didn't exist if no-one credible was asserting it did? That's like saying, "By the way, flying elephants don't exist. No-one's ever seriously asserted they do but, just in case some idiot in the future looks to me for a pronouncement, then here it is: flying elephants do not exist'.

Scholars do not waste their time refuting assertions for which there is no evidence.

 

http://community-2.webtv.net/tales_of_the_western_world/RLTHEODOSIUS2/

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From your post:

Those aren't Christian themed schools Orion?

 

Orion one decree aside you have yet to show me anything that even indicates that much of the early middle and what is sometimes called the Dark Ages was not caused by the loss of a thousand years of previous knowledge. And that is because the burning of the libraries and books is not in dispute.


The only real dispute is from the Christian apologists side of the argument that maintain instead of Christians burning the books it was the barbarians and the constant invasions. The result either way is the same 1,000 years worth of knowledge was burned and replaced by the Holy Bible after it was invented.

But let's not pretend this discussion has any kind of academic integrity to it because all you're doing is attacking the multiple sources I've posted without one rebuttal source of your own.

 

The destruction of all temples and libraries in Aphrodisias: again, I find no credible source. In fact, the great temple to Aphrodite was certainly not destroyed; it was consecrated as a basilica and the remains still stand today.

Typing "Aphrodisias libraries burnt" into Google rewards me with the choice of a number of less-than-trustworthy sites: the aforementioned YSEE site, freetruth.50webs.org, www.jesusneverexisted.com, and the like. And yet though all of these sites parrot the same phrase - All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross (even the wording is identical!) I can find no scholarly source that makes any mention of such an event.

 

No, you pillock, they're Oxford Colleges.

 

What does Trinity Stand for? How about All Souls. Those are secular schools with really funny names?

 

Then find me a credible source by your own standards that says none of this happened. If what you are contending is true that shouldn't be much of a problem should it?

I'm arguing in good faith about things I learned in college and have read about often. And I've never seen any historical point that hasn't been disputed by someone somewhere but the preponderance of evidence usually turns out to be right.

And if anything I'm saying is not true there is surely lots of evidence to prove that isn't there?

 

Firstly, this is the internet my friend, and one can find evidence for quite literally anything if one searches hard enough. It is the validity of sources which becomes important in such instances, NOT the fact that you have sources.

For example: my discovery of "www littlegreentruths.50press.pbp.peanut.com" which claims, quite matter-of-factly, that aliens exist in our socks. Is not what one might call a "credible" source. And I should probably refrain from stating the thing as fact and linking the site as a source, until I find a more credible supporting source, don't you think? And so it is a slight silliness on your part to claim you are somehow doing everyone a service by "at least including one source." What you are actually doing is muddying the waters with so-called "evidence of fact" which is plainly nonsense. That is a good way to get a good amount of people believing a good amount of nonsense, and I hope that was not your intention.

As for my source, well I believe X Orion has given you more than a few sources, more credible than a conspiracy theorist, and none of which support your claim of "all non-christian books" being burned. But if you insist, I will add another:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_book_burning_incidents# Nestorius.27_books_.28by_Theodosius_II.29 Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't see anything about all the books in the world anywhere on that list.

Lastly, if I might add, you should have a bit more time and a bit more respect for common sense. The quickest way to keep from making the mistake you made and using as a "source" the garbage you used, is to do a bit of thinking. If a single man had set the western world back thousands of years by destroying all ancient knowledge and science. Do you not think that is something you would have heard about? You don't think the discussion of such a monumental event might take place a little more often than the current rate of never? Think in between those lectures on the Salem Witch Trials and The Spanish Inquisition that your church adoring professor might have added "and then they burned all the books and set us back thousands of years." That is quite a story, and the next time you here a story as ridiculous as that, you may want to see if it passes the smell test. Because a simple thought of, "I think I would have heard of such an earth-shattering event," should be all that is necessary to discredit it. You shouldn't need to go around finding opposing sources every time you hear that there is in alien in your sock. You should simply know better.

 

Idiot. I have posted sources where they can be found; I am pointing out time and time again until I'm blue in the fucking face that your sources are neither scholarly nor credible!

A source is not simply, "someone on the internet who's saying it." Can you get that through your head? You post such things here; you post them on political threads; you post them everywhere. You don't get the importance of citations, of footnotes. Your sources never include them; they're usually blogs or from the websites of clearly biased parties. There's no academic integrity to your choices.

You say "1000 years of knowledge". Is that the case? And yet we have the writings of Plato, of Socrates, countless writings on politics and philosophy, countless histories, countless documents on mechanics and mathematics.

I assert, once again, that there was not a systematic campaign to eradicate all pre-Christian writings. I will certainly and without hesitation agree that books were burned but the only evidence - solid evidence - that I can find is that heretical works from within the Christian faith were burnt. I still find no evidence of mass book-burning by Christians on a wide and systemic scale.

Furthermore: the multiple sources you appeal to quote this:

"armed with clubs or stones and swords they ran to the temples, some without these weapons only with their bare hands and feet"
-- (Libanios "Pro temples" 389 AD).​

What's particularly interesting is the name: it's wrong. It's Libanius, with a 'u'. Isn't it interesting that this misspelling turns up on all these sites that all parrot statements that use the exact seme terminology, and yet none of them contains a source anywhere?

And what's more, from actually reading the document that's cited (which can be seen here, because I highly doubt you've read it) we find that Libanius is indeed decrying the actions of the monks who go from temple to temple, desecrating them as they go - but he's also writing to Theodosius, of whom he is a trusted advisor as far as I can tell; he writes "Having already, O Emperor, often offered advice which has been approved by you, even when others have advised contrary things..." He points out, indeed, that what these monks are doing is against the Emperor's law.