I NEVER SAID THAT....

we don't no the awnser or I don't no the awnser..meaning you and not me....

 

You think you know the answer, you may actually have the correct answer, but in reality, you don't know squat. Nobody knows the answer to the big question.

 

YOUR RIGHT SORRY ABOUT THAT....

sometimes I think a little backwards like I'm in primary school

 

To me, the greatest question in physics right now is not "Will the Higgs be found?" or "Did the neutrinos travel faster than the speed of light?" It is not "What happens as you approach the singularity?" or "How did life begin?"

For me it is "Why did the universe begin in such an ordered state?"

I don't think science currently has a good/ satisfactory explanation for this. If physicists can work out why it was so ordered to begin with, they could probably work out how it came to be. If the universe were to randomly appear, it would have been many magnitudes more likely to have appeared how it is now with the stars, planets and life, than the manner it actually did. So we can pretty much rule out it came from random chance. There needs to be some sort of event that triggered it, but the laws of causality break down as you approach a fraction of a second after the big bang, to apply the word "triggered" in a world where time does not yet exist is perhaps a bad choice of language.

Either way, you have got to love physics, it has given us so much, yet the more it gives us, the more we realize that there is more to learn.

by the way, if someone comes along and says god did it. Please realize that it is an argument from ignorance again. It holds no weight. You will forever be placed on a personal list of people who lack basic knowledge, and may in future be patronized (that means being treated with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority. :excited: ) by myself in replies to your posts.

 

Thanks. I was thinking km/s

 

There seems to be a lot of proof/non-proof of God's existence based on the history of the universe, mainly the moment of creation in the above discussions. Also the big bang. How many universes are there unable to communicate with each other because they are separate entities? Too complicated for me.

I look around me and find anti-chance all around me. If the files in a file cabinet are arranged alphabetically (completely anti-chance) I say the secretary did it. A consciousness was responsible for ordering the files. So, with my infantile reasoning, I say that since there is anti-chance all around me, a consciousness did it. It doesn't make sense to me that an anti-chance setup came to be purely by chance. Is that anti-chance God? Is it the sum total of all thought arranging things in some kind of order? That would make us parts of God. And your next-door neighborhood cockroach would be a part of God.

I give up. I don't know. But I think anti-chance is the strongest argument for the presence of a God.

 

It's one thing to be ignorant. It's another all together to be cocky and you my friend are unapologetically both.

Let's use your car example.

All the elements needed to make a car already exist in the universe and have existed for billions of years. There is no natural process that nature can perform to take these elements and mold them into a car. because that is a man made process.

We are not talking man made objects you fool. we are talking about stars and planets and elements and life forms. None of these things man can create (with the exception of a few elements)

my argument to you is everything in the natural world can be created WITHOUT the need for a god. They form on their own when acted upon by the NATURAL forces of nature.

Let me see how many cars a man can make if there was no iron that formed in a star. Or silicon or carbon.

 

Your attempt at satire is bored.

You make a fine argument, but then, everyone does when they create their opponent. Had you viewed the discussion in context(a wild and gruesome thing), you would realize that my hypothetical was in response to his demand that, "if you claim that there MUST be creator, because the universe HAD TO HAVE a creator, then you must concede that your creator ALSO had to have a creator."

I merely pointed out to him the perfectly rational response he could expect to receive from an intelligent member of the opposition in response to such a wild demand. A creator would not be required to have a creator because a creator lives outside of our laws and therefore requirements cannot be placed. You are correct that the same could be true for a random event, yet this has nothing to do with my hypothetical, and even less to do with his statement. In fact, it had nothing do with the discussion in general. Beyond you reading a few lines outside of context, quoting a few lines outside of context, and then arguing with a straw man...outside of context.

 

It didn't. sigh. If you guys are gonna debate a topic at least do more research on it.

for billions of years After the big bang the universe was one large cosmic soup of matter and anti matter that were violently annihilating each other. It just so happened that there was slightly more matter than anti matter so matter won the cosmic battle. It took more billions of years for the matter to slowly cool and gather under the forces of gravity. Then the first star ignited and then more and more until you finally get something that resembles the modern universe.

This process took a long long time. time scales that are way beyond human comprehension. Our version of time is limited to the time we experience from within earth's gravitational influences. We think in hundreds of years the universe has been around for more than 14 BILLION years.

So to answer your question the universe did not start of in an ordered state at all.

The only reason you think it's orderly now is because earth happens to be in a rather quiet section of a rather normal & old galaxy. (the Milky Way is one of the oldest galaxies in the universe)

and life was not 'placed' in this section it evolved there because that location is suitable and stable enough for life to exist within.

Think of it like having a plant seed in a pot. if you keep the pot in the shade it will never germinate. If you move it into the sun/rain it will. It's the same concept with life on earth.

Life was not placed in the goldilock zone. The earth just happened to be in the right spot at the right time with the right conditions.

it's like tossing dice into the air and predicting exactly which numbers they will land on. toss the dice enough times and you must be right at one point.

We are the products of billions of years of dice tossing.

Sorry Einstein, your god may not play dice, but the universe does.

 

this is pure speculation. you have absolutely not foundation to base this on besides your own conviction. As such, such wild claims cannot be scrutinized and therefore cannot be brought forward as a viable theory.

 

Fair enough, my sincerest of apologies. You are quite knew to the forum, and I like your posts. Over the years there have been many people arguing that the existence of the universe itself is proof of a creator. An argument that I have grew tiresome of. It usually gets a pretty general response from me which I reword from time to time. However this time around I didn't take the time out to read all the posts in my thread, for that I apologise.

 

fixed an annoying typo.

 

Sorry Incubus, this time you are wrong. The universe now, as it exists with galaxies, stars, black holes, and even life, is almost infinitesimally less ordered than the moment after the big bang.

The universe in its early stages was highly ordered. I think what you have done here, is misread my point, and confused it with a common argument for a creator, which is in fact the reverse argument. Creationists often say the universe as it is now with life life, planets etc violates the second law of thermodynamics, incorrectly stating that the universe as it exists today is more ordered than when it began. When really it couldn't be further from the truth, the problem lies with the creationists quoting physics laws when they don't know any physics.

The weird thing is, if they actually looked at their argument in reverse, and saw that the universe in its beginning was highly ordered, that may prove to be a better argument for a creator than one who claims the reverse.

 

*facepalm*

dude. the big bang itself was the single most powerful explosion in the history of the universe. how could that time period possibly be more ordered than current time?

back then there were no stars or galaxies or planets or solar systems just what could best be described as a giant cloud of gases.

i assumed by 'order' you meant recognizable features that we know of today.

order, is relative to your location in the universe anyway. if you were too close to a Neutron star order would be the last thing on your doomed mind.:razz:

 

I think you are confusing as a human what you perceive as order based on your every day experiences with what physics describes as ordered.

Entropy always increases. It explains why time runs in the direction that it does.


Also, the big bang was not an explosion, it was and is an expansion. It happened everywhere, including where you and I are, and it happened billions of light years away, which at that time was all the same location, not just the matter, but the location in space itself.

 

Maybe it would be a more convincing point if a famous scientist was making it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgllA3717pY#t=63m28s

 

Incubus, put on your thinking cap.

Natural laws mean what? They mean that things operate according to a pattern. Think of ANYTHING human beings do that comes in a pattern. Baseball players swinging at pitches. They don't just swing at anything. They wait for a pitch, decide if they will let it go by, and swing at it if they won't. 100 percent guarantee. Guys with some manners getting that feeling in their butt. They go to the bathroom and poop in the toilet. They don't just sit there and let the poop come whenever. Or a guy doesn't want the neighbor kids on his lawn. He puts up a fence. These are all patterns. Every one of them happened as a result of conscious thinking.

A pattern is created by a consciousness. It results in things happening one way and not another. The entire universe seems to run in patterns. You can call it natural laws. What does that tell me? A consciousness seems to be at work throughout the universe. How can the universe NOT have a God?

Think about it for a minute. What you say seems to show we don't need a God for explanations, natural laws, seems to be needing a God to explain how they came about, because natural laws are patterns and patterns are created by consciousness.

 

:wall:

there is so much fail here...

not even worth my time

 

the essence of what you are arguing is inconsequential.

 

Ah, well... Here is the deal. Honestly, there is no disputing this one - I tell you!:rose: