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  1. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    Well, if it's passed on directly to consumers, why would it raise the cost of doing business? You can't have it both ways, TT.
     
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  2. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    By the way I should have mentioned that Affirmative Action has been immensely beneficial to society in terms of leveling the playing field, righting past injustices and bringing a balance of opportunity to the body politic, so of course we should acknowledge that certain groups, being less intelligent and having less intrinsic capability to function normally and productively, should receive the easy questions, while the more capable whites should receive the hard questions.

    In short I am in full agreement with the progressive way of thinking here, and everyone else should be, too, it seems to me.
     
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  3. ladygodiva123

    ladygodiva123 Porn Star

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    I think 200% is unrealistic, but when our production here is high enough that we are EXPORTING oil and natural gas, how does that help our energy independence? IT DOESN'T! If they allow the rest of the Keystone XL Pipeline built across environmentally sensitive areas of the US and there isn't even a guarantee that the oil will be sold to the US, how does that lessen our dependence on the Middle East? Running the pipeline down to the gulf coast just makes it easier for TransCanada to export the oil to the highest bidder, probably CHINA.

    Right now, farmers and ranchers in Texas are being forced to allow TransCanada to build the southern section of the Keystone XL pipeline across their land. How? Through eminent domain. A FOREIGN COMPANY has been allowed to take land because a judge said so. Sure the landowners can sue, but they will never be able to fight the legal team from TransCanada and the American companies working with them. A 78 year old woman was arrested for trespassing on her own property for standing in the way of the Keystone Pipeline. Is this how CONSERVATIVE'S do business? Business's have more rights to your property than you do?
     
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  4. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    Tommyturtle is trying to impugn that passing the cost on to consumers will cause inflationary pressure, which will reduce the buying power of the dollar both forcing salaries higher at a cost to corporations and increasing the cost that corporations incur in raw materials and services in order to produce their products.

    Pay him no mind, Kimiko. Don't even bother thinking about it. This fuzzy math has been soundly rebutted a thousand times by Paul Krugman, and there is no point in even pretending that it is worth debating with backward-thinking non-progressives.
     
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  5. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    +1

    Hey, now, I just picked a number. Maybe 200% is too high, maybe not. All I am saying is something has to be done. The forward thinking progressives in Germany didn't just leave it to chance. They incentivized their markets, by having a dearth of natural resources, and it wasn't just accidental. We still have natural resources, but we're damned well going to have to do something to make them less attractive, because those robber baron oil companies are making something like seven cents net on every dollary they spend, and obviously it is seven cents too much, because they have record profits. And if we want all of our manufacturing plants to build solar plants on their roofs, we're just going to have to do something to make the ROI more attractive. Maybe 150% or 175%. All I'm saying is we can't just sit on our hands here. We have to act.

    The other thing I would say is that that fucking pipeline absolutely has to be stopped. President Obama has taken positive steps in that direction and shut down/delayed parts of it, but I think in this regard he could be stronger, especially with his overwhelmingly decisive win last Tuesday. I think all forward thinking patriotic Americans understand that we don't need a single solitary mile of that pipeline, and we shouldn't be building the goddamned thing anywhere when we're 3,000% sunnier than Germany.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2012
    #85
  6. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    In that case, lower taxes, such as we've had over the past ten years or so, would have the opposite effect, decreasing the cost that corporations incur in raw materials and services in order to produce their products, and then they'd sell more product and hire more people and we'd have lots and lots of jobs.

    A funny thing happened during the Bush years. This thesis was proven wrong. Decisively.
     
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  7. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    Yeah, funny. And what did they do? Hoard it instead, and spend it on junkets and private planes. You can't trust corporate America to do the right thing. You just can't! Goddamn it, we have to do something, Kimiko! :mad:
     
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  8. tommyturtle

    tommyturtle Having an Out of Shell Experience

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    It will be one way or the other. Sorry, I left that line out. Which do you prefer?
     
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  9. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    Damn, look what happened when I took the day off!!

    Since I first posted this thread, yesterday early afternoon, there have been dozens of replies, mostly from avowed progressive/liberals.

    Almost all of them declared that the article linked in the OP was a call for the Republicans to hitch up the Tea Party pants and block everything that has been or will be proposed by the evil Democrats.

    No one seems to have actually read the article, no where is the Tea Party mentioned. No where is the Republican Party mentioned. No where is the Democratic Party mentioned. No where is there a call to obstruct the Congress or to thwart the efforts of the President.

    What is mentioned is that the conservative ideals are not lost, that we should not bend to the press of the liberal ideals. We are still quite viable and quite able to press for fiscal responsibility and for realistic social goals.

    Personally, I will not simply go away, I will continue to work for those people who best extend my conservative ideals.

    Would anyone suggest that I, or any of my fellow conservatives do less?
     
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  10. RandyKnight

    RandyKnight Have Gun, Will Travel

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    No that has got to end...no more fracking so no more gas.....(will make my old gas wells worth much more---I'm gonna love 13 buck mcf gas again)

    NO NO NO...PIPLINE...too many jobs and why would we want to help Canada...who needs jobs when you have food stamps and welfare...
     
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  11. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    There is an old saying, "Don't work hard; work smart."

    Conservatives need to understand why things were moving in their direction during the 1970s, and why they are not now. If they don't they will work hard and they will lose elections.
     
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  12. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    What I would like, and perhaps even vote for, would be a real conservative party in the tradition of Edmund Burke. One that would try to conserve what is best in the status quo, and one that was distrustful of abrupt social and economic changes, and skeptical of untried economic changes.

    The Republican Party is composed of reactionaries who want to repeal the basic economic and environmental legislation of the twentieth century, and right wing radicals who advocate abrupt changes like replacing the income tax with a national sales tax, arguing that it would somehow increase economic growth.

    There are two things we can be sure of with a national sales tax: first it would kill the tourist industry because foreign visitors would be required to pay the same high prices as Americans; second it would encourage Americans near the Canadian and Mexican borders to do as much of their shopping in Canada or Mexico as possible. This of course would be bad for American owned stores. A national sales tax would probably be regressive. There is no reason to believe that it would lead to more economic growth.

    Another example is right wing radicalism is Ronald Reagan's bizarre notion that cutting taxes generated so much economic growth that it lead to more tax revenue. No amount of contrary experience can convince many Republicans that that is a delusion.
     
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  13. ladygodiva123

    ladygodiva123 Porn Star

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    Does a person have a right to know what's in the fracking fluids that are being pumped into THEIR LAND and potentially contaminating THEIR water? I think so. But as it stands right now, the fracking companies can keep some of the ingredients confidential as "trade secrets". BULLSHIT! That's my land, my water you might poison and if you do poison it, I can't live on my land and I won't be able to sell it either.

    What is CONSERVATIVE about taking away an individuals land against their will? Jobs? Building a pipeline will produce temporary jobs at best. And again, Canada is under no obligation to sell us the oil that goes through the Keystone XL Pipeline, endangering the Ogalalla Aquifer that supplies water for 1/3 of America's farmland - ONE THIRD. If that gets contaminated we are fucked! For what? It will not bring down oil prices and it will not reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. TransCanada will be free to sell that oil to the highest bidder, China, India, whoever, and piping it to the gulf just makes it easier to export. It also means big profits for the refineries around the gulf, but again, that doesn't help the US at large.
     
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  14. RandyKnight

    RandyKnight Have Gun, Will Travel

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    Hey I was agreeing I dont want no fucking pipeline.....I said that a long time ago...

    And if we got rid of this new gas my old northeast Louisiana, Ohio and west Arkansas shallow wells would be paying me 13 to 15 bucks a mcf instead of a lousy 2 bucks...

    I dont give a fuck what people have to pay to stay warm in the winter...
    They can go buy a $40,000 solar roof...

    Heck they even have do it yourself kits for 20 thousand...
     
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  15. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    The DOE program is actually pretty good compared to the Small Business Administration.

    What a great expose of the lie of conservatism as it is preached and practiced in this nation. I really like the way you pointed this out.

    But on the other hand the Keystone Pipeline is a done deal. The only thing the Obama Administration did was require new environmental impact studies after the route of the pipeline was changed.

    However, you are right that we in the US won't see any benefits from the pipeline. The only people who are going to benefit is the world oil monopoly which will export more gasoline, diesel fuel, and jet fuel.

    Which was paying for going through the same thing twice because it had already been decisively proven to be a bullshit tale under President Ronald Reagan.

    Well I'll tell you what tenguy just to show that you're not just trying to bullshit your way through this why don't you name those people who best extend your conservative ideals?

    Or prove you're simply preaching the lie of conservatism again.

    And all you have to do is ask the people around Pavilion Wyoming about that. ENCANA didn't just frack that country they blew it up facking with liquid CO2. It polluted their water wells. So now the state of Wyoming has started a program to help them by cisterns to hold water and now they can pay to have their water hauled to them.

    And in the meantime ENCANA grabbed all their profits, sold the field to someone else and cut and ran. Which is what happens just about every time.

    Also that's just the tip of the natural gas pollution ice berg. Because when you look at a gas field there are hundreds if not thousands of gas wells being produced there. All of them have tanks to catch water and other petroleum products. And all of them release methane as well as other really hazardous petro/chemicals into the atmosphere. But none of them fall under the regulation of EPA air quality standards because each of those wells (thousands of them) are considered individual units too small to regulate.

    That's why in the winter time around Pinedale Wyoming the state Department of Environmental Quality (what an ironic fraud that is) has to issue Ozone warnings because Ozone gas reaches levels that could be extremely hazardous to young children, the elderly, and people who already have breathing problems.

    And most all of that is the result of having the oilfield CEO (Dick Cheney) and Chairman of the Board (George Bush) in office for eight years when gasoline and oil prices broke all previously existing records.
     
    #95
  16. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    Here's the thing, Tenguy...the "conservative ideals" you're talking about must be different from the "conservative ideals" today's GOP is running on. Because if they continue to pursue the path they're on, they will continue to lose. Today's GOP is racist, anti-science, anti-minority, anti-woman, and has positioned it as the great defender of the top 1%, to the exclusion of everyone else. Is that what you want to double down on?
     
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  17. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    They should be glad to pay twenty.

    In the other thread I said fracking's dangerous and it's got to go. Maybe it screws the well water and maybe it doesn't, but why take the chance on crap that warms the planet and should stay in the earth, right? Look, I'm not saying outlaw it. I'm saying the EPA should issue a few Directives. You want to start a fracking operation. Good for you. But you're gonna go bankrupt. That's all.
     
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  18. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    Man RandyKnight you've gone from bullshitting up a storm to bullshitting up a Sandy today.

    http://www.earthtechproducts.com/solar-generators---solar-backup-generators.html
     
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  19. stumbler

    stumbler Porn Star

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    I already called tenguy on this. If he can actually name a "conservative" that reflects his "ideals" I'll be surprised. Because he's never done it yet. All he's ever done is try to claim that any "conservative" that fucked up isn't a "real conservative." And that's been his dodge since the first time he came on this forum
     
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  20. clarise

    clarise Precious princess Banned!

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    +1

    These are concepts that persons such as TenGuy simply cannot comprehend, Kimiko. I understand your frustration. We can't change their minds, but we can certainly try.

    Here are the concepts that the GOP and the conservative/teabaggers fail to understand, to their peril:

    Defender of the 1%: Absolutely, this is the lowest and most dangerous plank of the GOP. To hold that there is value in production, or that personal initiative deserves compensation, or that the desire for profit is anything but the base motivation of a primitive savage, is backward non-progressive thinking. The conservative/teabagger/republicans cling to this notion of toil, profit, and reward like vultures at a carcass, and they utterly fail to see their labor as a social obligation. The GOP will not be taken seriously as long as they merely pretend, by their cynical seven figure charitable gestures, to care about people. We see right through their cynical hypocrisy. The GOP and the 1% must embrace and believe in their social and moral responsibilities.

    Racism: As DL has explained, the GOP and the teabaggers fail to understand that some classes of people, due to intrinsic genetically determined challenges that are no fault of their own, need a leg up and a leveling of the playing field. The GOP denies that these certain classes need a fair shot, such as easier questions in tests and more opportunities. While other classes, such as the genetically superior whites, need harder questions, and fewer opportunities. For balance.

    Anti-Science: As Whitey and others have explained, the GOP and the teabaggers cannot be trusted to have opinions about the warming of the earth or the non-existence of God or the dangers of fracking or the dangers of nuclear power, because they do not understand science and have no desire to understand science.


    Anti-Minority: This is completely different from Racism (above), because it transcends incomprehension and crosses the line to exploitation. What the conservative/teabagger/republicans have to understand is that certain classes do not exist to be chained and to be paid substandard wages. These classes need to be treated compassionately and respectfully, as though they are really people, and the filthy hateful racist teabaggers absolutely refuse to do this. The GOP absolutely will not progress until it disavows its shameful record of exploitation and grants to all classes the appearance of progress.


    Anti-Women: The GOP and the conservative/teabagger/republicans talk a good game on this one but we see right through them. No thinking person will believe a shred of their lying hypocrisy until the GOP acknowledges, in writing on its platform, that a mother has the moral right to smash with forceps and a mace the skull of the trash that she chooses to expel from her own body, as long as the umbilical cord is still attached.


    In Conclusion:


    Kimiko, Stumbler, Umpire2, DL: I don't know about you, but I despair of the GOP embracing these essential forward-thinking realities anytime soon. That is why, if society is to progress, the Republican/conservative/teabaggers absolutely must stand down and get the hell out of the way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2012