[h=1]Ukraine says pro-Russian rebels abandon positions on Donetsk outskirts[/h]
KIEV, July 23 (Reuters) - Pro-Russian rebels are leaving their positions on the outskirts of the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk and retreating towards its centre, Ukrainian military officials said on Wednesday.


Residents said the rebels, who want independence from Kiev for Ukraine's Donbass region, had dug trenches in downtown Donetsk outside the main university, where they have been living in student dormitories.


Ukrainian forces have forced the rebels back to their two main strongholds of Donetsk and Luhansk, taking villages and suburbs around them to try to squeeze them out.


"In Donetsk, rebels abandoned their positions en masse and went towards the central part of the city," the headquarters of what Kiev calls its "anti-terrorist operation" said in a statement.


"It cannot be ruled out that the appearance of such movements could suggest the spread of panic and attempts to leave the place of warfare."

Residents said they had heard shelling during the night and a shell struck a chemical plant in the city, causing a fire.

Fighting was also reported in Luhansk overnight, officials in Kiev said.

 

Yep, no surprise the pussy ass Obama administration is too much of a coward to confront Russia. No one said Putin shot it down himself. However, evidence showing Russian involvement is overwhelming.

Obama's foreign policy is as much of a disaster as his domestic policies.

The man has shown nothing but incompetence in everything he does......

 

[h=1]2 Ukrainian military fighter jets shot down[/h]





KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Two Ukrainian military fighter jets have been shot down in the east, according to the country's Defense Ministry.
The Sukhoi-25 fighters were shot down 1:30 p.m. local time Wednesday over an area called Savur Mogila.


Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky says the planes may have been carrying up to two crew members each.

 

[h=1]Ukraine says EU reverse gas flows lower after Gazprom's 'threats'[/h] W (Reuters) - Ukrainian Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said on Wednesday reverse gas flows from the European Union to Ukraine had fallen because of threats by Russian gas producer Gazprom.

"Reverse gas supplies are reduced at present. This is linked to certain actions by Gazprom," Prodan told reporters, adding Ukraine first saw the decrease two weeks ago.
"You heard the threats Gazprom made to European energy companies that this reverse is illegal."


He said reverse supplies stood at 7 million cubic meters daily on Wednesday versus a possible 18 million.

 

I'm wondering who the hell trained these pilots. Two fighters one should have made it out.
I dislike this but I think Ukraine should give us pemission to fly cover for their aging fighters that lack counter measures.

 

It wasn't our plane that got shot down.
It wasn't our missile that shot it down.
It wasn't our people on the plane.
The plane did not land in our country.

IT ISN'T OUR PROBLEM.

 

It is possible that the planes were supporting ground operations against the rebels and simply ran out of luck.
The Sukhoi-25, if memory serves me right, is primarily the old Russian version of our A-10 Thunderbolt II (in role as ground attack plane)

I wonder if the rebels or Russian forces allied with them have used the newest MANPAD's I have heard references to over the last few years: they are a Russian version of our second-generation STINGER AA missile.

I have to agree here, keep our people out of the mess.
We can supply Ukraine with training and arms and supplies but no direct intervention by our troops.
The mess caused by the flip-flops of Pres Obama and Sec of State Kerry are bad enough.

 

Wouldn't that put us in the same place as we are complaining about Russia?

 

[h=1]Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile[/h]
DONETSK Ukraine (Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had anti-aircraft missiles of the type Washington says were used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.


In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system.


He also indicated that the BUK may have originated in Russia and could have been sent back to remove proof of its presence.


Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.


Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian rebels.


Khodakovsky blamed the Kiev authorities for provoking what may have been the missile strike that destroyed the doomed airliner, saying Kiev had deliberately launched air strikes in the area, knowing the missiles were in place.


"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

View gallery

A man walks past a piece of the crashed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 near the village of Hrabove, eas …



"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.


"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.


"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."


"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."



CIVILIAN FLIGHT


Washington believes that pro-Russian separatists most likely shot down the airliner "by mistake," not realizing it was a civilian passenger flight, U.S. intelligence officials said.


The officials said the "most plausible explanation" for the destruction of the plane was that the separatists fired a Russian-made SA-11 - also known as a BUK - missile at it after mistaking it for another kind of aircraft.

View gallery


A Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet takes part in military exercises near Mykolayiv, on September 22, 2006 …


U.S. President Barack Obama's administration has said it is convinced the airliner was brought down by an SA-11 ground-to-air missile fired from territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists. [ID:nL2N0PX1TW]


Other separatist leaders have said they did not bring the Malaysian plane down. Russia has denied involvement.


Khodakovsky is a former head of the "Alpha" anti-terrorism unit of the security service in Donetsk, and one of the few major rebel commanders in Donetsk who actually hails from Ukraine rather than Russia.


There has been friction in the past between him and rebel leaders from outside the region, such as Igor Strelkov, the Muscovite who has declared himself commander of all rebel forces in Donetsk province.


Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed BUKs, but they may have been used by rebels from other units.


"The fact is, this is a theater of military activity occupied by our, let’s say, partners in the rebel movement, with which our cooperation is somewhat conditional," he said.


"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."


Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained BUKs from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.


While he said he could not be certain where the BUK system operating on rebel territory at the time of the air crash had come from, he said it may have come from Russia.


"I’m not going to say Russia gave these things or didn’t give them. Russia could have offered this BUK under some entirely local initiative. I want a BUK, and if someone offered me one, I wouldn’t turn it down. But I wouldn’t use it against something that did not threaten me. I would use it only under circumstances when there was an air attack on my positions, to protect people’s lives."


He added: "I am an interested party. I am a ‘terrorist’, a ‘separatist’, a volunteer ... In any event, I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise, say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."

 

Problem is a MANPAD won't shoot down a fighter jet all the pilot has to do is dump all the extra weight he can and climb fast. Anything above 15,000 feet is off limits to a shoulder launched missile. The SU-25 is a multirole fighter not a ground attack aircraft.

I'm not saying let our troops fight I'm saying if the Ukrainians get locked on to by a missile our fighters can intercept take the heat and either out run it or use flares to trick it. If Russia wants to use their fighters we can play MIG alley again.
If not that we should be giving the Ukrainians F-14s and F-15s.

 

About the MANPAD true enough: could the rebels, who have now 'admitted' (whether due to coercion from Putin or on their own is unclear) to having the missile systems which brought down the airliner. Could a battery of them have done the same to the two fighters, or is operator error/mechanical failure more likely?

Giving planes to the Ukraine would be one good move: also I could see a relevant role in the Ukraine using (if they are not already doing so) armed drones for pinpoint strikes at established rebel positions and strongholds (note - NOT any near civilians).

 

Yeah the BUK with it's SA-11s could lock on to a fighter easily it's built for it. The SA-11 is heat seaking though and I doubt the rebels have the training to lock on to two fighters at once.
So the role of one of the fighters would be to take the hit and the other swing back around to knock out the BUK.

The BUK is mobile once a missile is launched the Ukrainians must pin point the launch point and hit it with a missile before it can move. With the aid of US satalites Ukraine would know where the BUKs are we know the heat signiture of the BUKs we hit them hard when the damn NVA had them in the 60's.

The Civilian part is your problem that's the ideal spot to place a AA battery.

 

Everyone crying because Russia is backing those who shot down the plane but are just wetting their pants for us to be just like them.

 

Why do you think Russia is backing them? Get with the picture the cold war ain't over Putin is testing the West using Ukraine.

 

So if I get the gist of the two-plane attack combo they play a variant of Wild Weasel - one is missile bait and the other strikes the launcher/s before they can beat-feet.

The placement of AA's and SAM's among civilian points is the same matter Israel is having to deal with right now. Doubly so in any insurrection: rebels can disguise themselves as civilians and really muddy the waters.

 

Just as he did with Crimea and Georgia's break-away provinces.

 

Well kinda, ideally they'd hit the battery and call it good. Once a missile is free the idea is just that.

The better pilot would take the heat he has a better chance of out manuvoring the missile the lesser locks on to the launcher as fast as possible and fires. Both jets could be taken out both could survive but either way the BUK is gone.

 

Russia is backing them and we are backing the other side.
It has been that way for as long as Russia and the U.S. have been afraid of each other.
Russia and the U.S. continue to use smaller countries to do their dirty work.
Russia isn't any better or worse than the U.S.
Why don't they both back off?

 

In this case for one main reason:

Putin knows that Obama is a spineless, weak-willed, inconsistent, craven coward and will in the long run cave in before Russia pushing to gain more control and influence across the Ukraine and wherever they wish. Obama is a kind of Chamberlain, but many orders of magnitude worse: he considers the US to be the main world enemy who must be punished, while seeing himself as the savior of the world.

 

It is your opinion all other countries should immediately stop what they are doing just because the people in the U.S. elected a man because of his color instead of his qualifications?