They are; just as the Palestinians are the heartless ones when Israelis die. This conflict will continue forever unless both sides are willing to admit their faults and give some ground.

 

I never once heard that argument appear from anybody on this board, until AFTER someone pointed out that Obama has issued a very low number of them. Why weren't you making a valid argument in the first place?

 

And your point (if you have one, at all)? That the argument isn't valid because I didn't introduce it soon enough to suit YOUR requirements (which I really give not two fucks about since you're just another uber-liberal progressive interloper who feels they have a right to insert themselves into other countries' politics)?

 

I have an idea. Just to make things fair.

Maybe Israel should fight the way Hamas fights. Just rain rockets indiscriminately into Gaza. Don't even attempt to pick targets. Just point the mortar at an angle, and let 'er rip. How about that?

I also have an idea or two about giving ground.

This time, Israel should agree to withdraw its forces from Gaza if, and only if:

1. Hamas acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.
2. Hezbollah acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.
3. The self-proclaimed state of Palestine acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.
4. Lebanon acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.
5. Iran acknowledges the right of Israel to exist.

The anti-Semitic apologists on this forum really make me laugh.

 

Don't be TOO shocked. They're the same type of people who are against the death penalty for people like Charles Manson, because it's "inhumane", but have no problem justifying the crushing of a fetus' skull simply because it hasn't been smacked on the bum by the doctor yet (thus, it's not a human being).

 

I had an epiphany when I was responding to AnotherUser's WWIII thread. He doesn't want the thread going political, so I'm putting my epiphany here.

Israel's Iron Dome is working.

But Israel is invading Gaza anyway. And the invasion is going to get bigger, before it gets smaller.

So many of us have been assuming that Netanyahu is ramping up toward an occupation force. Even though the occupation of Gaza is immensely UN-popular among Israelis. And even though Netanyahu's stated intention is to eradicate the Gaza tunnel systems.

So here's my epiphany:

What if Netanyahu is on the level?

What if he really does have no intention to occupy Gaza?

What if the tunnel systems really are the objective?

There are miles of tunnels. There have been, for years. The tunnels are used for black market trade, for the most part. So why now, all of a sudden, is Netanyahu using the deaths of four kids as a pretext to invade? What's the big deal about those tunnels?

THEORY BY CLARISE: Netanyahu has information that we do not. Via Mossad. Something big. A BIG new threat, that the Iron Dome won't protect against. Perhaps a portable nuclear device. Built by Iran, or supplied via North Korea or some other state.

 

Or perhaps they are looking for Biological or Chemical weapons smuggled out of Syria that are now in the hands of Hamas?

It's no secret that Hamas has been trying to acquire more sophisticated weapons to use against Israel...

 

The solution for your theory is this - Terrorists such as Hamas, and nations such as Iran who sponsor them, will continue to be emboldened by any passive response by Israel.
Netanyahu is handling the international media and political campaign as is needed: controlled escalation with stated goals and an end game.

Terrorists and fanatics who lead them only understand one form of deterrence: the fear of the application of force.

This is summarized as follows: no matter the harm an enemy may cause in a first-strike, the counter-blow will ensure they pay a many-fold heavier price in full.

If there is a nuclear device, or even a dirty-bomb, look for it to have come from Pakistan.

 

Chemical arms are the most likely.

Has there been any mention, other than a single rocket attack, of a terror strike against the Israeli nuclear infrastructure?

 

I am thinking along the lines of a nuke because Iran has spent years on building a device; because it would be primitive; because they do not have the time or means to test ballistic delivery systems and would therefore have to cart it in; because we've pretty much handed Hamas a smuggling corridor through the Sinai by our complicity in destabilizing Egypt, and because Hamas is an Iranian proxy.

Could be chemical weapons.

Or a nuke. Perhaps carted right into Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, if Israel lets its guard down.

Either way, my epiphany is that Netanyahu is not invading over the deaths of three kids. He's already gotten an eye for an eye a few dozen times over. He's after more than that. I think he is attempting to pre-empt a grave threat which, unleashed, would be the trigger to WWIII.

 

In the matter of a nuclear-device, a first-generation Iranian-built one does not necessarily mean "Primitive."

Would they likely be able to deliver it via a ballistic-based SRBM or IRBM system: one-in-seven chance.

Consider these factors which must be taken into account:

Transfers of technologies, manufacturing, planning, and experience between Iran, Pakistan and North Korea.

Remember that a leading nuclear-scientist of Pakistan, Abdul Qadder Khan, is held to have transferred or sold outright nuclear weapon technology and advanced designs to Iran and North Korea. Take the advancements made by N Korean ballistic-missiles, and that of Iranian ballistic-missile programs, and the situation grows more dangerous by at least two-orders of magnitude.

North Korea has already managed to orbit an inert 'satellite' or such payload, and Iran has completed sub-orbital flights of monkeys and such: the real purpose is this, put any object into sub-orbit, or orbit, and you have the basis for a functional ballistic nuclear delivery system.

Even if they have a circle-error-probability of 2km or so, put a Hiroshima-sized nuclear devise in the area, and devastation will occur on a massive scale.

If Netanyahu is after bigger game, to prevent the unimaginable from happening, then I wish him best of fortune.

 

Each one of those "Iron Dome" missiles costs about $250,000 USD to build. Israel has used more of our anti missile hardware than we have and we foot the bill too.

 

Firstly, let me share this with you...

[YOUTUBE]mTifhm1qDPw[/YOUTUBE]
​

(I guess Owen Jones could be seen as anti-semitic, because I know how that story plays out: you criticize the Israeli government/war machine, you're suddenly parading round in clothes emblazoned with swastikas while goose-stepping to "Hitler; you are the wind beneath my wings, feat Snoop Doggy Dog and Shania Twain')

Or maybe, perhaps, Owen Jones sat on national television and actually dared tell the truth about who started the recent round of bloodshed and the deaths of civilians. Maybe. Perhaps.

As the nation of Israel didn't actually come into being until after world war 2, and since it was decided by powers that be from countries who had no rights deciding, the nation was set up within Palestine. Historically, the Jewish people and the Arabs rubbed along really well and fine together for centuries; but now we see Palestinians getting turfed out of their homes, which are then occupied illegally by Jewish settlers. That's right, I said the Palastinians get turfed out of their homes, although I guess it's not that bad, because they're "allowed" to live in the grounds of the homes they once owned...IN TENTS.

Habitants in the illegal settlements often 'visit' the villages and homes of legally settled Palestinians, where they, in a very friendly manner (I'm sure), threaten and yes, even kill them. And the worst thing about these visits is...this action is condoned by the Israeli government.

Palestinians working in their olive groves or anywhere outside risk their lives being targeted by gun-wielding illegal settlers (and the Israeli army). The illegal settlers contaminate water supplies, or sniper-attack herds of sheep or goats or cows or whatever. And before long, the Palestinians are driven out of their homes and off their lands, which are taken over by - can you guess? That's right, more illegal settlers. Brill.

But wait, surely I'm nothing more or less than a scum-sucking liberal fucktard, who would support Obama's at every turn if he were my overlord, instead of the bigoted twat we have in power at the moment? Well fuck, if the truth makes me a scum-sucking anything, pile up the scum for me to suck, that's what I say.

And while I'm on the subject, let's take a look at what else the Palestinians have to suffer, shall we? Uh...for those of you afraid of the truth, you might want to stop reading here, because if this post hasn't made you vomit already, there's a really big spew heading your way.

Still with me? Okay, don't say you weren't warned.

One of the main incomes of the Palestinians is olive oil. The countryside is, I believe, littered with olive groves, or it was, until the settlers decided to contaminate the water supplies (read previous). There is a finite time between harvesting olives and pressing them, after which, the olives can no longer be used; they're ruined in other words. But...the lorries and wagons and whatever that carry the olives are often stopped at check points and kept there for no reason than the Israeli soldier in charge of the checkpoint on that day has a fucking Hitler complex, which is quite ironic really. They keep the trucks at the checkpoint for hours...in hot sun...until the olives are ruined. Bang goes the income, bang goes a whole year of work and labour. Just fucking bang, and all because of the little Hitler in an Israeli costume.

And things get even more ironic: There's a more definite class system...roads. The luxurious, well maintained roads are for use by Israelis (and probably tourists), while the pot-holed, never maintained, roads are for use by Palestinians (and Israelis if they so choose). Even in emergencies, like say, rushing your child to a hospital because their appendix has ruptured, where time is of the essence and speed is needed to save their life. These lower-class roads have to be navigated successfully, including getting through checkpoints from one part of Palestine to another, once permission has been granted by the little Hitlers in Israeli costume. See, told you it was ironic.

Then there's the wall; which isn't really a wall, in parts anyway, so much as a bloody long chain-link fence, that spans the country. Only it isn't static, it moves every time some perhaps-not-so-little-Hitler-in-an-Israeli-costume decides they want that part of Palestine too. And fuck the Palestinians. Fuck them, if it cuts off a home or three from the rest of the Palestinians. Divide and rule, that's the Hitler way, and we're fucking doing it!

It's true, look at the pretty picture I found:

​

Anyone else notice how bloody small Palestine is, compared to the land agreement in 46? And that blurb on the side, wtf even is that? There's 4.7 MILLION Palestinian refugees? Well, I can't promise that figure is correct, but I can tell you that the Palestinians make up the largest group of refugees in the world.

More truths: as Palestine is segregated and dissolved (while the west rant on about how Israel is under constant attack :neutral: ), villages get divided. Checkpoints spring up, literally overnight and before you know it, Aban, who had been visiting his sick mother on the other side of the village, now has to get permission from soldiers, to return home. And if he's lucky, he'll not only be allowed to return home, where his wife, Basilah, awaits with his three children, all under five, but he might even get permission to stay there and only have to apply for permission to pass through the checkpoint to see his aging mother again; but let's face it, she's old anyway, right? She's had her time, so what does it matter if these wannabe-Hitlers don't give him a pass through to see her again before she dies? Can I get an amirite, here?

The simple fact is, the Israeli's were given land and they then proceeded to grab more. They have effectively blocked goods being brought into Palestine (can we turn our minds back to the freedom flotilla's of a couple of years ago? How many got through the illegal (or the usually illegal as long as it doesn't apply to Israeli's) blockade? And knowing that goods can't get to the Palestinians by sea, you're now reaching and claiming the tunnels are being used as a means to ferry wmd? Just how fucking brittle is that straw you're grabbing at? Yes, the tunnels are used for blackmarket goods; like flour and clean water, medical supplies, building equipment, food. Yes, I know you can probably build a bomb from a pound of sugar and antiseptic (provided you add a few more ingredients to it, anyway), but nuclear arms? Is this what the majority of brain-deads are believing these days? Why, because this is what you've been told to believe?

Sure, the Israeli's want to spin that story to the empty-heads who believe anything that paints Arabs in a bad light; because now the Israeli's have the backing of the fucking brain-dead fuckers like those on this thread (oo insulting...did I mean you? If the answer's yes, then I'm not apologising), and they're going to go in, kill however many civilians they fucking well want to and destroy as much of the tunnel system as they possibly can, thus cutting off the Palestinians even more than they already are. Well done empty headed fuckers.

And most of you empty headed fuckers cry the loudest when immigrants try to bring their culture into your country..."THEY SHOULD RESPECT THE WAY WEEEEE LIVE", I've seen the posts, I've heard the cries, echoing eerily all through the internet. "THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO COOK THEIR SMELLY FOOD, OR PRAY TO THEIR GODS, OR...OR...OR..." and yet, when land grabs as successful and systemic are going on by people who don't really have any legal right to be living in a country they now live in, we, and by 'we' I mean 'you, you empty-headed, brain-dead moron', support the fuck out of this so much, you'd rather a civilisation was annihilated than tell the Israeli's to stop - and probably because they're so fucking good at playing the martyr because they've had longer than half a century to get it just right!!!!!

How very fucking hitler of you, moron.

This post, and myself, in no way condones violence, segregation, any holocaust (yes, I did see that post and can't believe the person who supports it can actually reador write, but accept the fact that they either did, or they have some kind of genius chimpanzee who takes dictation). I don't believe in all this an eye for an eye, I don't believe the death of any civilian should be shed, and am frankly, ashamed that there is anyone who would celebrate any death, no matter what colour of skin a person wears, what gods they worship or what part of the world they come from.

 

Iron Dome only thwarts atmospherics. It is not an SDI (Star Wars) system.

So in theory could Iran deliver a nuclear payload with sub-orbital ballistics?

Not likely.

The problem is trajectory. Iran is too close to Israel.

Iran would have to put a missile all the way into low orbit for a full circumnavigation of the planet. The whole world would know about it, and the United States and the UK would have plenty of time to take potshots at the thing.

That is why I am thinking that if Iran does manage to build a U235 device, they will attempt to hand-deliver it.

 

In reality if there is a country that does not have the ability to build a nuclear weapon by now they should give up.

 

The Palestinian people are getting it in the neck. No question.

 

Oh, I take issue with DL's assertion that Iron Dome is our gift to the Jews.

The Israelis helped. In a big way.

We support Israel for more than just the fact that they are the Middle East's only pro-Western democracy.

Israel has more physicists and engineers per square mile than any other comparable land mass on earth. Israeli know-how designs most of the VLSIs in the world's computer hardware.

It is doubtful that we could have built an Iron Dome that works, without the Jews.

We certainly can't built iPads without them.

Or iPhones.

Or Crays.

And so on.

 

Bush doesn't deserve credit either, we have given $3B to Israel for decades. If it weren't for that FREE money, they wouldn't exist. But of course we'd actually be able to use that money to help finance our own country... But nope, gotta defend Israel.

 

In the matter of trajectory I have to differ a bit with you.



Here we can see that the Short Range Ballistic Missile called the "Sahab-3" is well within striking range of Israel.
The missile has an estimated delivery capacity of 1000kg, which means the probability of a nuclear-device being carried has to be considered.



The 'Ghadr-1' and the 'Sejil' either have or will have the range, along with the necessary delivery capacity, to deliver a nuclear-device to Israel.

Now, for maximum shock and surprise yes, a nuclear device/s could be delivered 'by hand', or more likely by boat, or small cargo plane.
More likely if Iran is going to go nuclear on Israel, the most probable attack will involve multiple strikes with conventional, chemical, and one-to-three nuclear devices.
Such an attack would seek to overwhelm the Iron Dome system and even the limited ABM capabilities of the Patriot system.

The only matter holding Iran in check when, and not if, they obtain enough nuclear devices will be the fear of counter-attack in kind.

 

Most countries seeking a viable nuclear-device or arsenal will not do so for one reason: the political influence on the world stage such brings.
Look to North Korea, India and Pakistan to see how other nations treated them before and then after they test-detonated their first nuclear arms.

Remember that deterrence among nations takes into account not only the literal strength of armed forces, economics, society, and the like, but also the perceptions of 'what can they do to us if we do this or that to them?'

On the world-level of events, perceptions often carry more relevance than reality.