Actually, since we're all expressing opinions here, it's impossible for Lucifer Sam to prove anyone wrong. That being the case, he quickly resorts to name-calling.

The idea that human life is sacred is rooted in religious belief, which is entirely subjective. Death is pretty much the most common thing in the universe. All living things die, many of them prematurely. All human beings die, many of them at the hands of other human beings, or because of the studied neglect of other human beings.

I just find it fascinating that those who are opposed to abortion on the grounds of the sanctity of human life can remain stonily indifferent to the death of a half-million innocent Iraqis.

 

When you said that not all life is precious you specifically meant human life. Don't insult my intelligence. We butcher cows for meat and use cows for dairy for our own survival. Cows are not worth anything more than that. However they do serve a purpose and they live until it is time they serve their purpose. Human life is worth much more than that. As far as name calling I say what I feel and I feel that you are very ignorant.

 

Lucifer Sam, I feel like I've given you sufficient rope with which to hang yourself, and you've certainly been obliging about that.

I think it's time for me to move on to more fruitful, or at least less tedious pursuits. Have fun!

 

Sounds great! You certainly have alot of issues to work on and you do not need me breathing down your neck.

 

This is how I view it, and I think it's why I tend to make people mad sometimes.

 

Give me a reason, a logical reason, why all human lives are precious. In fact, give me a reason why you think any human lives are precious.

 

That's a hard one. And value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I may be worth everything to somebody, but not worth a damn to somebody else. It's all opinion based.

 

1) I think the point Kimiko was making was that she couldn't see why life was "sacred", not "Precious". There is undoubtedly a difference. Please don't ask me to define it, because I'm not that clever, but you don't have precious relics in a church. You have SACRED relics.

2) You are right that the value of a life is a subjective, not an objective, view. Who's to say that the Secret Service agent who takes the bullet for the Pres doesn't deserve to live more than Bush? When China has a population the size it does, and loses thousands to famine every year do you think their government should be pushing workplace health and safety or letting natural wastage take it's course? I, personally, have not recently (as in since I thought this issue through a few years back) seen a single good reason for taking the life of another human being, other than as an absolute last resort in self defence, and even then I don't know whether I could do it. I hope I never have to find out.

3) Do I think abortion is "morally wrong"? No. I think that to bring a life into the world in a situation where it will not be loved, nurtured, provided for, given a chance to grow and learn and become a valued (yeah it's an opinion!) member of society is morally wrong. If you make a decision to become a parent you are making a big commitment to the child and to society. If you, by whatever circumstances, find yourself pregnant but unable to make that commitment, then adoption is another option, but how many kids grow up in care without much hope of a decent life? So you have a choice.

4) Should the government be involved? To the extent that medical procedures are regulated by law then yes, but beyond that, no. It's pretty hypocritical for a guy who was happy to fry adult criminals to say that abortion is wrong because taking a human life is a sin (I suspect that was the point Kimiko was making but she got shot down mid-flow and decided to get out the way. I wish some of you could keep these debates civilized. We're all entitled to our opinions, different though they might be, and we're all entitled to argue them to the best of our abilities. It doesn't need to get personal, Lucifer Sam).

 

My point about the sanctity of human life was basically that the idea has its roots in religious belief, specifically the notion that human beings were made in the image of God.

I don't believe that, and it seems totally inconsistent with evolutionary theory. We're just another species that evolved the way all the others did. It just so happens that we find ourselves the dominant specie on the planet, so we make-a da rules.

So, my conclusion from all of that is that there's nothing "sacred" about human life.

As to whether human life is "precious", if we think that, we've got a wierd way of showing it. But I see no reason to think that it's any more precious than any other form of life. Members of all species die all the time. It's the nature of things.

That doesn't mean I would take a human life. I wouldn't. I also wouldn't shoot a deer.

 

Ashley, you seem to have missed my point. I have never taken a human life, and I don't ever intend to. I don't have the right to take another life, and I don't want it being done in my name. I therefore don't support my government taking human life, so I'm opposed to the death penalty and to pre-emptive war.

But I do eat, and that means that lives are lost, both animal and vegetable. That is the nature of things. I see no evidence in the world that life is not "sacred", though, be it human or otherwise.

By the way, welcome back.

 

Sorry, I meant that I see no evidence that life IS sacred. I can't get the edit function to work.

 

Well, since you put it that way, Ashley/Katie, I hope it doesn't either. Anyway, it was nice of you to take time out of your busy schedule to come back and insult people one last time.

But tell me...is a human life worth the same today as the life of the ape-like creature we evolved from? At what point did our ancestors become imbued with this divine ability to "distinguish thoughts and feelings"? Was it at the same point in time that we developed the ability to kill each other for no reason?

 

I really have no strong feelings on abortion, I just think the woman should do what she wants.

 

Thank you. You have wisdom beyond your years.

 

I just don't get it when someone goes you can do what you want, except for this and this.

 

In response to the original three questions:

1) No
2) No
3) No

Quick, simple, to the point.

 

Well, I think that Kimi and Ashley should challenge each other to a mud-wresting match, and then we could all watch! :twisted::twisted::twisted:

Make a change from mud-slinging!

(Fuck.....I know, I just know I'm gonna get flamed for this...:???: )

 

If only everyone thought like you...

 

'Importance' is a human construct, it's a judgement.
Look around at nature, nothing is more 'important' 'valuable' or 'sacred' than anything else.

So, we all have our judgements, and in many ways it's judgement that defeats us, that causes all the trouble, hatred, wars and discontent in our fragile little web that we call 'higher consciousness.'

Try a little experiment...see if you can go a whole day without making a judgement about anything....I guarantee you won't last ten minutes.

If you really examine all your judgments and opinions, you will discover that none of them are original. They are all a collage of fragments of ideas, religion, experience, opinions of people you respect and like and a thousand other influences that you blend together and call your own!

Totally unique!

...........and that's why we all speak a different language, that's why we argue.

So, life is precious, priceless, worthless and valueless all at the same time..........because we judge it to be so.

 

no. no. no. the voting thing said i had already voted and i have not. i have found the same thing at other polls. hope they fix that little problem.