Is abortion morally wrong? I guess that depends on the individual's morals, but I think that has to be an individual's personal choice in a free society.
Should Abortion be controlled by Government? No not in a free society where the individual is entrusted to make their own moral decisions.
Should Abortion be such a big political issue? No it should have been settled and stayed that way when the Supreme Court ruled on Row vs Wade.
Now let's see about some other issues raised. My wife and I planned to have two children. We ended up with four. The third child's middle name should have been "foam" and the fourth child's middle name should have been "pill."
Now, my grandmother was born in 1904. Her first abortion was in 1920. She performed it herself with something she purchased at the drug store called a "slippery willow." Her second abortion was in 1939 except this time she went to a back alley doctor who put her in the stirrups, raped her, and then used non-sterile instruments that caused an infection, forced her to have a hysterectomy, and nearly cost her life.
Here’s a couple things I can’t see. If abortion is actually killing an innocent human being, how can it be opposed in all cases except rape or incest? Isn’t the fetus just as innocent even if it’s created by someone else’s crime?
And surely if you oppose abortion because life is sacred, then don’t you also have to oppose the death penalty on the same grounds and just as forcefully?
I guess that’s why really complex moral issues should be decided by each individual not the government.

 

There's a general idea persisting throughout this thread that fucking somebody can create a human soul. I was taught, and firmly believe, that when a fetus 'quickens', that is, begins to move on its own, it then is an animate individual as its 'soul' has arrived (from wherever), and not before.

If a fetus is aborted before that, then the soul will simply arrive or be sent somewhere else.

My 2¢ worth,
DanK

 

Dank I'll have to admit this is a new one on me. Would you kindly tell me where you learned this?

 

It's an old poll that's why, I think.

 

Abortion is Not Murder: So-Called "Pro-Life Movement" is Anti-Human

Read this;
https://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4833


P.S. Conflicts are not caused by "judgment". Unless you condemn the "judgment" of, say, feminists about sexists, the "judgments" of homosexuals about homophobia, the "judgment" of the religious persecuted about religious persecution etcetera. People who claim "judgment" is wrong are hypocrites. Everybody judges, only hypocrits claim their own judgment is "correct" while judgment by others is wrong.

Conflicts are caused, in the end, by ALL forms of group think, group pressure, group ideology, and group identity.

Race, class, gender, religious affiliation, sexual preference. All ideologies and religions that use group identity to espouse a worldview will eventually lead to conflict, from which then violence, war and genocide can come.

The only way to prevent this is by rejecting ALL forms of group processes or group think that are the result of some form of coercion, and by embracing individual rights and nothing BUT individual rights, from which then only VOLUNTARY group processes can proceed.

Only actions where all individuals are voluntarily participating, garantee peace.

Which excludes almost all political and religious systems and ideologies currently existing and implemented in the world.

Thank you.

 

In my judgement........you are absolutely right !

 

Well... here goes: (wish me luck - or stone me, whichever)

Back in the '60's (long before Roe Vs Wade), it was a (somewhat) popular medical opinion that if a fetus wasn't capable of independent movement, it wasn't alive, yet; no individual thoughts, memories, stuff like that. At least, that's what I learned in 7th Grade Psychology.

Very early on, I rejected my Lutheran upbringing as the biggest crock ever to plague mankind and began to seek out my own truths (and no, God does not talk to me, nor does he particularly listen). I believe the exact point was when my dear mother was reading a children's story to my baby sister that contained the words; "And all the stars in the sky are the Eyes of God" and I sniggered, "That is the stupidist thing I ever heard!" at which point I was knocked across the room and beaten half to death. That thoroughly cured me of Religion.

In High School, in another Psych Class, I ran across the idea that 'fornication' creates the human soul (I think the term was 'psyche'), and that somehow we became conscious as the result of some sort of chemical 'spark' that occurs late in the development of a fetus (I think that's the position the Psychiatric profession takes even today). This struck me as so ridiculous that I figured the oppposite must be the truth. The 'spark' could possibly be the arrival of the 'soul' if you're religious - or the point at which the fetus becomes an individual; depends on your personal beliefs.

So, I shouldn't be surprised that you've never heard such an idea - after all, it's more of a rejection of a supposed truism (something believed to be a fact, but it ain't necessarily so).

In the late '60's, there was also some psychic investigator named Harold something-or-other who had a center in Phoenix. This guy wrote several books, which I avidly devoured. Maybe that's where I got the whole 'when the soul joins the fetus' idea; but I actually think my deviation from normal, pigeonholed religion began in Psych Class in the 7th grade, as well as in Catechism class. The things they wanted me to believe were just too stupid to be true. My poor grades in each of those classes were obviously due to my inability to absorb such drivel as 'The Solumn Truth'.

I would apologize for offending anybody, but it wouldn't matter; people will be offended anyway. That always happens when you question someone's blind adherence to the beliefs that hold their lives together.

DanK

 

Thanks Dank.
And actually your ability to come up with your own theory carries more weight with me than a lot of the other dogmatic explanations I’ve heard. I guess that’s why I was curious. Now as far as offending anyone I have scoured the Constitution and the right to not be offended isn’t in it.

 

Just because I feel the desire to preserve my own life doesn't prove that it actually has some sort of supreme meaning. It doesn't mean I have a soul. Even a cockroach is going to run from light or away from under your shoe.

 

Are you saying you're soulless?

 

I'm pro-life.
I can see the point of this article and if I wasn't so against abortion, I could agree with most of it.

But I cannot agree with this:
Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life.

This statement says that I'm a hateful person. My opinion and beliefs don't follow the majority here, but that doesn't make me or any other pro-lifer like this article wants you to believe.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you. Human beings adopt constitutions and form governments for the purpose of providing for the common good, recognizing that they are stronger as a group than as disconnected individuals. In so doing, they agree to be bound by certain principles, as codified in law. I see nothing inherently wrong with that sort of "group-think".

I like the fact that my tax dollars go to build the roads I drive on, and to pay policemen and firemen who keep me safe. These things can only be accomplished through collective action.

 

hmmmhmmmmhmmmm...... *whistling softly*...........

 

Abortion

I believe it is the woman's choice after all it is her body. In the situation of rape there should be no questions asked, but abortion should not be viewed as casual birth control. Education and availability of alternate birth control is the issue. I'm all for giving out condoms to high school kids, birthcontrol pills and the shot. I feel that the Catholic perspective on birth control is out dated and in todays society birth control is neccessary. Is it morally wrong, no. First trimester is acceptable, anything else put up for adoption. Should the government regulate, no. It should be between a woman and her doctor. Should it be political, no. There are to many other issues that need to be fixed and this is minor in comparison. I am tired of delivering babies to 14 year old mothers. I am tired of fishing dead babies out of dumpsters. If a woman uses abortion for casual birth control then when she has the second abortion she should get her tubes tied and have that be the end of it. Well thats my peace.

 

I'm really sorry, Rain, because you're the last person I'd want to offend. I value your friendship (along with everyone around here) and don't want you do think less of me for my beliefs.

I guess I honestly don't believe in the concept of a "soul." I mean, I truly believe that there is a spark within every living thing that has a touch of divinity. If I didn't, I wouldn't be a vegetarian. But I think that a lot of humanity has a sort of selfish, internal view of the world, placing humanity at the top of everything.

A metaphor:

I think I have something, some special spark, a quality that I share with everything else. Maybe as humans, our spark is a little brighter than that of, say, a fern or a mouse or a kitty or a cockroach or a racoon or a dolphin or even a monkey. But it isn't exclusive to humanity.

And, unfortunately, I don't see it as eternal. This spark I have, that everything has, will fade away someday. I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm okay with blinking out of existance. There are a lot of other sparks just like mine that keep the world bright.

 

If we can entertain an even broader view we can arrive at what some of my native American friends believe which is that all things in nature have a spirit, not just living things but also inanimate objects like rocks soil and water. They also believe that time is not linear like a straight time-line but actually spherical as in three interconnected realms consisting of the past present and future. Now if want to I guess you can make fun of me for leaning towards their beliefs. But please don’t make fun of them or their beliefs they are every bit as valid as anyone elses.

 

AB, if you are still there, even though you didn't actually come back (?), what exactly do you think you evolved from? Or are you refuting the weight of scientific evidence gathered over the last several hundred years and proposing an alternative? If so I would recommend the Flying Spagetti monster.

 

I don't think less of you because of your beliefs. I just had to ask because you're the 1st person I've ever heard that they didn't believe in a soul. We just have different beliefs on this entire thread and that's fine.

 

Sweet.

Yeah, I was raised as a strict Catholic. My parents are pretty free-thinking in everything else besides religion.

I pretty much try to take the meaning of the world at face value.