It's like they invented a more effective way to kill our troops.

History - Trench Warfare, chemical warfare, guerilla combat, submarines... Every time somebody works out a better way to kill and not be killed it is seen as terrible and criminal. I am in no way defending this style of fighting, I'm just saying that if I were defending my country from what I saw as a foreign takeover, who had superior weapons and efficient killing machinery, I wouldn't strap on a uniform and walk out into the streets.

Besides, with the bomber issue, there's nothing to bomb that aren't civilian targets, and we are supposed to be in the process of rebuilding those.

 

I stand corrected.

However, I know this about guerrilla warfare and trench warfare. It's said that they both originated in the United States. We at one time were considered terrorists anyway. However, we didn't basically mount our guns on our mother's arms and shoot our guns at them. That's what makes their style of fighting immoral. The people they are using as a meat shield don't want anything to do with the war and politics going on. They just want to make sure their kid stays safe.

And the Civil War? Just damned bloody.

 

I meant that to be with the trench warfare, as it's supposedly originated in that time period in the United States.

 

Not to be too harsh of anyone, but how many of you have served? Anyone want to guess how many of our elected officials have ever stepped up for their country?

The US doesn't have the largest Army, or even military, that award goes to China these days. We do have the highest tech. military, but as the insurgency shows, high tech is easily defeated by low tech martyrs who think it's cool to die.

You won't find me bad talking the President, regardless of who it is. For one thing it's against regulations for me. For another, the President can only do what Congress allows, and so far they haven't done much but do their best to see the military broken. (I can only speak from and Air Force point of view, but so far we've told Congress we HAD to close bases...and we were forbidden to do so. We said OK, then we HAVE to get rid of some of these 60 year olf aircraft...and we were told NO. So now they're cutting over 60,000 troops from our ranks and Congress doesn't care (more voters in their districts maybe?)). I've about had it, but don't know what I can do to change it.

 

EXACTLY!!!

(So I originally typed just 'EXACTLY!' and was told we needed a 10 character minimum for a message. WTF is up w/dat!)

 

It's that mentality, shown by Caffiene and Biz that illuminates the difference between professional soldiers, trained and honorable, to that of martyrs and extremists.

For us, the only legal targets, in a time of war, are those in uniform, or those using weapons against us or against civilian targets.

What the world doesn't understand is that as soon as we can establish a firm government and get the infrastructure repaired, the US military is outta Iraq. We have spent this whole time trying to repair the damage done to the civilian side of the house, and reestablish some semblance of self defense capability to Iraq...yet insurgents, many from other countries, are doing their best to destablize the situation.

I have some small empathy for the Iraqi guerilla, aiming and firing at US troops. I have nothing but disgust for the foreign martyrs who think they're doing something good by exploding bombs in civilian areas, shooting police and recruits, and targeting peoples and buildings based on which flavor of religion they prefer.

 

By 'mentality' are you suggesting that we don't understand?

 

Wow, Biz, we totally agree.

This is why I can't be a soldier. It's not honorable to kill, on either side. Now I'm not throwing baggies of vomit at soldiers when they come home, and I respect the sacrifice made for an ideal. But I think that ideal gets twisted around sometimes, like right now in Iraq. And in becoming a soldier, you've given up your right to decide if the situation is really right or not. You said yourself that you can't criticize the president, and I'm pretty sure you're in trouble if you don't follow orders.

So yeah, it is this mentality that seperates us, and I don't see it as a bad thing.


I agree with you in that it disgusts me that this type of fighting is happening. But think about it. If you were in their position, what would you do?

 

I respect your military service Milt but this is just the same situation we got into in Viet Nam. It didn't work there and I don't believe it will work in Iraq.

 

To answer the first thing, mentaility as in way of thinking. Opinion in other words, everyone has one, some differ from others.

For the next thing. Soldiers don't like to kill and don't want to kill. It's our job, but only when necesary. Killing isn't always honorable (ask an older Japanese citizen what the meaning of honor is, it's different that an Iraqi, and everyone has there own definition here as well. As to giving up your right to do what is right, that is just wrong. We have a thing called the Law of Armed Combat, it outlines what we can and cannot do both in combat, against individuals (and just who those individuals are), etc. If we ever see a LOAC violation we are to report it immediately, and keep reporting it until someone takes action. This has worked in many wars, including Vietnam, Korea, and in Iraq. We will turn in our own if we see them commiting atrocities.

As for criticizing the president, can you talk badly about your boss at work and still expect to work there?

Stumbler, I agree that there are many similarities to Vietnam, but this isn't then. We have many things we didn't then (let's start with popular support for the men and women of the military), and the people actually appreciate us. What's different is the religious aspect, and that may be the component that causes us to pull out.

 

My question had more to do with 'how' you think it 'illuminates the difference.'

 

Just trying to say that your opinions highlighted the differences between a trained, career soldier and...


Ah! I think I may see where the error occurred. I meant state that your opinions and mine differ because of my training. Instead I skipped a sentence ending and a beginning and threw in the martyrs, who are under a completely different belief system than US soldiers. My apologies.

 

Sorry Milt I still can't agree. There was popular support for the military and actually the Viet Nam conflict when it first started both at home and in Viet Nam. But as the years drug on and the body count rose the conflict and the military lost support. Your last statement does make sense. Iraq is much more complicated than Viet Nam because of the three different sects and only a fraction of Iraqi's supporting the current occupation. But Viet Nam actually started out as a civil war in opposition to the puppet governement and president we installed and then North Viet Nam entered the conflict. That looks pretty much the same to me.

 

I feel that there just some things the people of the world will not stand for.. and genocide is one of them..

 

"y'all got a pretty mouth now!"

I'll sleep easy now that I know Oklahoma's finest is (or will be) watching over me...

 

Caffeine, have I told you lately how much I respect your opinion?

 

Likewise.

 

This administration will never go to war with Iran. The only way that’s gonna happen is if Monty Hall or even Donald Trump is elected some day (ha ha just trying to think of the most absurd turn of historical events)

 

I'm gonna get cussed out for this, but for most of my lifetime, the Rothschild bankers, and other global elitists, have been pushing for not only free trade and a Global economy, but also a Single Global currency. About two decades ago maybe a little longer, there was a website http://www.singleglobalcurrency.org website run by Paul Volker, and it listed all the prominent bankers who were in support. It no longer exists as the word got out about it.
Back then there were 7 nations left in the world whose money supply was not controlled by a Rothschild bank. Iran, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Syria, and North Korea!

These nations wanted to create their own Reserve currency called the "Gold Dinar" which would be backed by gold.

Since then, the US has invaded, Iraq and Afghanistan, participated heavily in Libya, and to some extent Sudan and Syria, and fucks with Iran and NK constantly!

It cannot be coincidence!!

 

See there is a thoughtful response to an old thread. Definitely worth resurrecting this thread!