stargazer - when I first opened this thread to read it, I also thought you were getting at the American forces in particular as opposed to the armed forces globally in general!!

However, since you posted this, you kind of clarify the position you wanted to make all along!! And I'll answer now - to the best of my ability anyway!!

When you get a group of people together, they stop acting as individuals on the whole and start acting as a group. It's nature, we don't intend to take on the mentality of a mob, but we do.

Now if you take 'the mob' out of a peaceful setting and into a setting of violence, where they fear for their lives - everyone is a potential combatant, power lines fluctuate daily - one day 'the mob' is pushing forward, the next they're pushed back.

If this mob also consists of males, you have a more aggressive streak - testosterone levels, the need to show less or no fear of their surroundings/predicament etc. They may 'dare' eachother to do things they would normally, under peaceful conditions, find totally abhorrent and would not do under any circumstances (in their 'normal' setting).

And this will be seen to be happening in any army if the conditions are right. Especially where they are not under the immediate 'control' of a superior officer.

(I'm not saying in this post that males will act more viciously than women - the female of the species can also be cruel and be goaded into acting 'out of character' just by their inclusion in a 'mob')!!

 

Can't find anything in the above to disagree with. I don't mean to single out American troops with the charge -- but I also don't exempt them just because they're on my side.

 

smcaaphd made the following point previously

"When you get a group of people together, they stop acting as individuals on the whole and start acting as a group. It's nature, we don't intend to take on the mentality of a mob, but we do.

"Now if you take 'the mob' out of a peaceful setting and into a setting of violence, where they fear for their lives - everyone is a potential combatant, power lines fluctuate daily - one day 'the mob' is pushing forward, the next they're pushed back.

"If this mob also consists of males, you have a more aggressive streak - testosterone levels, the need to show less or no fear of their surroundings/predicament etc. They may 'dare' eachother to do things they would normally, under peaceful conditions, find totally abhorrent and would not do under any circumstances (in their 'normal' setting).

"And this will be seen to be happening in any army if the conditions are right. Especially where they are not under the immediate 'control' of a superior officer."

I agree with this quote, but suggest that having a superior officer in control is no guarantee that the excesses of a 'mob' mentality won't occur. It is especially true when the superior deliberately incites the mob. (I think of the real monsters of history, which I believe needs to include George W. Bush.)

 

Take Abu Ghraib for example. I don't believe for one second that Lynndie England et al conjured up what they did out of their own little heads. They thought they were doing what they're superiors wanted them to do. Probably what they were told to do.

And when the whole thing became public, those fucking cowards cut the soldiers loose, and let them twist in the wind, all the while calling them "a few bad apples".

 

Crazy talk

Of everybody on this thread, who has actual first hand knowledge of soldiers actions overseas? Those who fight so you are not drafted and do not have to fight. Who says they are uneducated and barbaric? I spent five years in the army, two of those years were spent in iraq. I got out due to injuries sustained while fighting in iraq. I will tell you that anytime we heard of something of this nature we were outraged. It undermines everything we try to do. I breaks down all the trust and understanding we try to build the local nationals and then as they ramp up attacks we get it from the people back home for being young, dumb, barbaric and ignorant. 99.9% of all soldiers do not participate in these actions. Dont be dumb.

 

For what its worth , here is my take on war crimes and the individual soldier.

Training of course starts in basic to break down individuality, instill discipline, and begin to train how to kill. They do all three of these very well, its what the armed forces are all about. When you get right down to it a soldiers purpose is to kill, or to support those who do.

Some have mentioned a soldiers mind set is that the enemy is less important than him or his family. Whether they are trained to that mind set or come by it by necessity (since you are trying to exterminate the enemy) it does exist and im sure always has from the time man was protecting his tribe from the people trying to take it away.

There are some that can handle kill, kill, kill, then spare a life and show mercy the next second and there are some that can not. I think we would all like to think that all american soldiers can handle killing and mercy with equal skill. I maintain that they ALL can not do that.

Different cultures will handle this conflict with different degrees of success. I think it also depends on who is fighting whom. The fighting and level of barbarity was much different in europe than in asia during WWII.

So i think there will ALWAYS be individuals, groups, armies and governments that violate everything one would think of as merciful. Is that barbaric? Sure, war is barbaric, Its the nature or war. Because we consider ourselves a civilized country doesnt mean our troops or leaders wont commit war crimes

 

I told you what I know about it, from the mouth of a relative who was there. I guess he was in your 0.1%. I don't think he raped any Iraqi women, but I know how he felt about Iraqis in general, and his views reflected the people he served with. Did you, in your time in Iraq, ever hear other soldiers refer to Iraqis as "sand-niggers"?

 

Very well said....

 

Thank you Kimiko, im just waiting to be blasted though, im sure its on the way

 

No-one's saying all army personel are like that. You're reading far too much into it.

From what I've seen, however, it is possible to argue that the US army, perhaps more than other Western armed forces, dehumanize the recruits, stripping them of personal identity and replacing it with a group mentality. The soldier is not an individual, but a part of a greater whole.

Perhaps I am just uninformed, or mis-informed. Nonetheless, there are times when it seems* to me that, for every bit of bad press the UK forces get, there's 2 or 3 instances of American troops reported.

*Notice my emphasis, please. Before you rip my head off, remember that 'seems' is not synonymous with fact; rather, it implies an impression given.

Nonetheless, I didn't particularly want to get into the 'US forces are a bunch of wankers' debate, hence my comment in the OP. Like I said, this was supposed to make the point that how can we regard the coalition forces as a force for good when this is going on? A timely reminder, perhaps, that an entire country was destroyed, and an entire population terrorised, for love of oil.

 

Here's a bit more on the subject, from a few years ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/07/AR2006070701155_pf.html

 

Dont forget orion that the US armed forces is many times your involvment in warfare at the moment. Way more than 2 or 3 times as many, i would think. I would imagine that british basic training is much the same as US basic and the same dehumanization is practiced

 

I agree with X_Orion, it is sickening to think that a) a normal person rapes an underaged girl, but even worse that the army is there to Serve and Protect not to kill for their own kicks.

 

I've got a long, long history of military involvement through my family, and as far as I've been able to ascertain, the UK armed forces try very hard to instill a sense of self-sufficiency - the soldier isn't stripped of his identity, because it is preferred if he can act alone just as well as in a large group. This was quite some time ago, granted, and it's entirely possible that tactics have changed.

My sister's heading up to the RAF, so we'll see, eh?

 

I dont feel we are "dehumanized" as recurits. Unfortunately I do feel this does tend to happen in war. It can become tough to continue to do what is right. Mainly because in war, what is considered right, is often not the norm in everyday life. That being said, rape is not something that can get blurred. That is a black and white issue. Wrong is wrong.

 

Perhaps the salient question might be - to what extent might responsibility be laid at the feet of the superior officers as well as the recruit?

 

when you are being shot at constantly and your friends are being blown up by cowardly roadside bombs i might shoot just about anything that moves also.:rose: i have friends that have served over there as well.

 

This isn't about 'justified shooting' Deidre - it's about the rape of a 14 year old child and the murder of her and her family!!

 

i am responding to Kimikos take on our military and if you can see i commented on that scum already, others derailed it, not me.

 

Ok I like to think of myself as a little bit of an expert on this subject. Yes we do think of these people as less important than our families. Yes Soldiers want to kill everything that moves for self preservation over here because we, in order to survive, have to think of everyone as a potential threat. This war isn't like other wars where our enemies wear uniforms, our enemy over here looks just like the good guys. Plus not to mention we are having incidents over here of Iraqi Soldiers killing Americans. Most Soldiers distance themselves from Iraqis over here in order to be able to cope with the horrors of war. Contrary to popular belief Soldiers arent cold blooded killers. We have to think of these people as inferior to us to help deal with the killing that needs to be done. Some Soldiers take it to far and they disgust me. But yes I can honestly say that to an extent combat arms Soldiers are barbaric but hey cut us some slack when your job is to kill you kind of need that mentality to get you through it. But don't blame the whole army for this, he was a bad apple you have them everywhere.