Possum emailed me about the ratification of the 16th ammendment.. It was a constitutional ammendment and had to be ratified by the states.. This is the income tax law...
It has been said that it was never leagely ratified? I do know that it has hit the courts before.. My question is does anyone have a clue to where I can find some FACTS about the ratification or tampering with the votes.. I will even take opinions, or clues of any kind

 

The Wikepedia article I linked to earlier provides a reasonably concise overview of the matter. The problem is that much of what you'll find written about this on the internet was written by tax protesters, and those screeds are anything but objective or scholarly.

I greet the whole thing with a loud shrug. It the U.S. Government can amend the constitution illegally in 1913 and have it stand up to scrutiny for 93 years, all is lost and our democracy is no more. But I personally have no problem with the income tax and if it were up for ratification today, I'd be for it.

 

I too have no big problem with the Internal Revenue and income tax, except that congress keeps making it lean toward the wealthy, and complicates it so that you have to hire it done...

The reason that I bought it up was possum's not me... and I am right in the middle of a very deep look at Executive orders" Bush is not the only one that has gone overboard, and in many cases very much not legal... "Legislate by execuative order) Every time an executive order was made, congress could have protested.. But they did not!!!!
Congress threw some back at Clinton... but as far as I know congress only questioned "1" and then let it go after a couple of words were changed.. This whole mess is going to be difficult to correct.. First we will have to get a more active congress..

 

No disagreement there, TR...it should be simplified, but it should remain progressive, with rising marginal rates, and loopholes should be closed.

It's not just the Executive Orders that are at issue, it's the so-called "signing statements", wherein Bush basically tells Congress that they can pass any law they like, but he's going to abide by them or enforce their provisions only if it suits him. That strikes at the very heart of our system of checks and balances.

 

Hey thornyRose you can get facts on both those issues, and suprisingly just about every other serious thread we've touched on by watching Freedom to Facisim. And I think this does seem to be more facts than opinion even by your stringent standards. Please check it out.

 

I've looked at yoru article, watched some of the movie, did a bit of my own research and Kimiko i think you kind of argued against yourself. The wikipedia article only says that the courts upheld the tax law. It did not say under which statute or law or anything. Also, you said the internet is full of anti-tax websites, and i guess theres a reason for it. The government is not giving us answers. Our government is not open enough with us.

First off i think we should all pay taxes. Maybe its cause they beat into our heads and all that and i'm conditioned to think that way, but i feel its a good trade off. We pay a tax and a freeway is built. So i'm not argueing whether or not we should pay tax or not, i'm wondering why the government won't respond. The video shows a nytimes ad page where someone offered a $50,000 reward to anyone who can find the basis of being able to tax us. Nobody came up with the answers. All i want is answers. Even if they said, ok we fucked up, but we are going to legitmately enter a new bill into our constitutions i would be all for it.

Just give us the answrs seems to be the cry for many things. Where are the gas station and hotel videos showing the plane hitting the pentagon. Kennedy assaisnation. Tax Law. I'm more than willing to believe the government. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't look for mistakes in our government. But they make it hard for us to trust them. A few simple answers would convince me of many things. And if anyone says they don't need to prove anything to us or we should take their word for it or they ahve info that they cant share i say bullshit. Its our government. They represent us. We giveth and we should be able to taketh. We have a right to see that video. They owe us an explanation on the tax law.

 

Hello T.R. I just sent you a pm. Well there iis a book written by two men( The Law that Never Was) that goes into great detail their quest to absolutely dig into each states records to find outr if all the staes voted . If they voted of course there will ber records and signatures to verify. The conclusion is that..let me get the exact quote including the Federal Courts where these claims were heard.

 

Here is the info you requested ; The Law that Never Was detais one Bill Bensons research into the question if the 16th amend. was voted on anmd passed by the req. 3/4 of the statesHis research proved (at least to im) that one Philander(no joke) Knox who was I want to say sec. of Treasury under Woodrow Wilson. When the rweq. states votes did not meet the req 3/4 necessary to radify that they were well short of the mark.So with a bit of prompting by Woodies people Philanfer phenangled the votes to matdh he needs. That is what isds being argued even to this day in our courts.

 

You say you would be for it. Why? How much of the federal income taxes paid to the Gov't is actually taken and used by our Fed Gov't kimiko. have a diagram before methat adds details to what happens to the fed taxes collected from us. Would you like to know what it says?

 

Here is a chart that tells us how much of our fed income tax goes top our fed govt When you send money to the IRS it first goes to a federal Reserve bank which is a quasi-governmentrcontrolled bank....From there it goes into the International Bank for Reconstructon and Development into what they call a Quad Zero account with a drawback fund from which the IRS refunds areb Distributred(Title 22 section 286 United States Code) (31 CFR Chapter 11, section214.7) What is left is then transferred to the Intrnational Monetary Fund(United Nations Monetary and financial Conference,July 22, 1944 ) this moneyh is then loaned to other countries aropund the world including the Unitesd States. They must thenpay back these loans(with interest) to the Central Bankers, not the United States of America....

 

But kimiko doesn't it trouble you that we just give our wholesale trust to a system that at best is silent to scrutiny. I read for an example that the Federal Reserve has never been audited. Well if the federal gocv't can audit me as it pleases them. Why can't The Feds be audited?

 

Hey thanks stumbler for doinmg the diligence to check out the film and then to give your thoughts. think it may well be the most important tme in our historyu of being held in servitude by the Feds. Because it seems so implausible that these familys wereable to pull trhis ofdf and run withj the scam for so many years, whenever i brinmg it up to people that seem to want to make our country better, I_ get laughed at, Let me say this; I don't gain anything by doin this. I am retired anmfd my income is federasl in nature and there are no taxes involved./ I am doing this because these bastards are about to nmove this country into a New Worl Order whic most think is going to be Nirvana...you want to trust a government and it's foreign based pals that have robbed from us for almost 100yrs. You think they are going to give us the slaves a break? Well it won't be very much longer and we will kmow the answers

 

This all seems so complicated, but that is what impressed me so much about the film, it's actually all so simple when all you have to do is follow the money. The money trail starts with income taxes, wonders through the fedral reserve bank, and winds up at the world bank.And it not only shows us where we have been, but where we are going and I don't think any of us will like it.
And if I could add one more thing we're not supposed to be the slaves, we're supposed to the owners. We are the We the People, and nothing prevents us from acting like it except our own fear and laziness.
P.S. If you don't hear from me for a few days don't get your hopes up. I'll be back but I'm headed home after my hitch where I intend to concentrate on really important matters like chasing my little baby all over the house. Especially if I can talk her into her high heels because she is not only so sexy/cute in them, she is also a lot easier to catch

 

That is exactly what I am going after. you are right on top of as usual.

 

Stumbler: You got right on it "We the people are to lazy, we would rather have someone tell us how it is than hunt for the truth"
I think congress just gave up on the running of the government, and partied or gambled. They knew bush would write any law he wanted or honor any he wanted..

 

Something I don't understand about all this tax protesting is this - and remember that I haven't given the time to watch the movie or, frankly, to read any articles - is it really suggested that the USA could exist without taxes?

I mean, I agree that our current system is pretty corrupt and a lot of people profit from us that really shouldn't, but what is the ultimate goal in pointing out that there is no legal law for the basis of taxation? Without tax money, pretty much everything supporting our nation would be GONE.

So what I'm asking is...So what?

 

Okay, I watched it. It was long and boring and even more poorly produced than a Michael Moore film.

I'm willing to discuss the film, and weight its pros and cons (yes, I do think it has some redeeming factors), but I sure don't feel like putting enough energy into it to really delve into a deep synopsis right now.

All I have to say at this point is this: I have realized that Americans are all wage slaves for quite some time. It is the fundamental nature of capitalism. This film takes realistic and logical complaints and fears and exaggerates them to incredible (by invoking the word "incredible" I am insinuating literal lack of credibility) paranoid fantasies.

The truth is, money hasn't been real for quite a while. Paper money is literally based on faith. Digital money is on its way, and with it comes a greater set of shackles than humanity has ever seen before. Also, it is undeniable that our rights are being eroded. Privacy, voting rights, ownership rights, insurance, licences, birth certificates, and so on. The government lies for political and financial gain. All the time.

Bradbury and Orwell were right. And yes, the concept of the "panopticon" is very, very real.

But the simple truth is that YOU DON'T NEED TO FEAR AN INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY OF TIGHTLY-KNIT, SUPER-RICH BANKERS. LIFE IN AMERICA WOULD BE (AND IS) GETTING MORE FRIGHTENINGLY CONTROLLED WITHOUT ANY CONSPIRACY AT ALL.

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To possum, and all the rest of you: My paranoia is just as deep-rooted as yours, but I base it on simple Marxist recognition of the power structure in and reasonable observation of the visible control within our nation instead of the fantasy of purposeful string-pulling.

 

The Constitution states that treaties must be ratified by 2/3 of the senate. the NAFTA was passed by i believe only 1 or a few votes and was placed into effect anyway.

This is only one an endless list of illegal government acts.

 

AMEN TO THAT

 

Possum : you have a lot of elements, but if it was a follow the dots puzzle you would maybe come up with a christmas tree or an atomic bomb.. You need to educate yourself on the banking system. first your local bank.. then a merger of local banks.. Then trace where they go to borrow money.. The go to how those interest rates are set for your hometown bank to borrow money...Wade throgh that and then lesson #2..