two parter:
First:
you ask: I'm wondering if it's the abortion thing you have a problem with or if it really is an issue of tax dollars.

my answer is yes. to both. I have a problem with abortion. I'm prolife, that said, I don't want taxpayers paying for killing human life, or cloning human life. Further, how would the government go about 'getting' these embryos? Let's talk it out if I were to consider it. I've gone over and over in my head & with others, and I can't agree that I want taxpayer dollars going toward this. I understand and accept the private sector pursuing it. It's their right, but I'm not paying for it.

Second: You brought up NASA. I'm kind of excited about Geffen now & what he's doing w/spaceflight, as well as - I think it's Bill Gates ex-partner- that's pursuing it as well. that said, I think the only benefit I can think of right now (1:45am) for space exploration are the satellites. The rest is a 'who can get there first' between the super-nations of this world.


*****

I think that THEY believe it has 'potential benefit to all.' I don't think they are that way 'just because.'

*****

that's all right. I got your jist.

 

How'd you put the smilie in!

 

No problem. Your arguments on stem-cell research are simply right wing based, anti- abortion rhetoric that skirts the real issues. Numerous examples of promising experiments and possible applications have been presented yet you insist you want proof on the one hand but want to prohibit government funded research on the other hand. The fact is we don’t really know what cures could come from new stem-cell applications and the only way we are ever going to find out is to conduct the experiments and research. Those break troughs come from universities and medical centers not the private sector, and those public institutions rely on government funding. That funding was cut off by Bush to appease the pro-choice folks who helped put him in office and your empty arguments were created to justify it.

 

wrong. I stand by my arguement posted above. I could just as easily say 'your arguements are simply left wing based, proabortion rhetoric that skirts the real issues.'

that's not an answer. it's more rhetoric.

I see all those red words you wrote, yet you still want to pursue it. I understand you want to pursue it. Do it with your own money. I don't see the promise that you do, and so far, regarding human ESC's, science is on my side.

Also, if you read kimi's article, that was a privately funded study affiliated with a university. Universities don't rely on government funding for everything. Currently I have family going through clinical trials at a University Hospital provided by private funding (not me).

Do universities get federal funding yes. For everything no.

This is a false choice. The government isn't the sole source of research in the world last I checked, and I didn't limit anyone to finding evidence from government funding only. Show me anywhere where human ESC research has produced any successful results. No one has, yet they insist on wanting to spend taxpayer dollars, our dollars, money from our wallets, on it. I don't buy it.

That said, George Bush has given money for human ESC research. He just doesn't want it expanded beyond the 60 lines they already have. I'm ok with that, but it still hasn't produced.

source

what science HAS said, is that there are already treatments being used that were derived from Adult Stem Cells and there are significant federal funds allocated to that.

the rest of your statement is more continued rhetoric. If you could filter it out, both our posts could be shorter.

 

Stem Cell Science and Medical Updates
November 2006
Researchers Develop Embryonic Stem Cell Vaccine That Prevents Lung Cancer In Mice
Go to Top



October 2006
Fat Stem Cells Being Studied As Option For Breast Reconstruction
Insulin-Producing Pancreatic Cells Are Created From Human Embryonic Stem Cells
Stem Cells Extend Life Of Rats With Animal Model Of Lou Gehrig’s Disease
Go to Top



September 2006
Scientists Discover Way Of Targeting And Eradicating Cancer Stem Cells In Acute Myeloid Leukemia
Will Embryonic Stem Cells Help Treat Macular Degeneration?
Researchers Grow Nerve, Bone and Blood Vessel Cells From Adult Pig Stem Cells
Go to Top



August 2006
Scientists Develop Technique That May Generate Human Embryonic Stem Cells Without Harming The Embryo
Researchers Move Biotechnology Closer To Replacing Electronic Pacemakers
Healing Potential Discovered In Everyday Human Brain Cells
Go to Top



July 2006
Scientists Discover Key To Growing New Stem Cells
New Study Finds Potential Ovarian Cancer Stem Cells
Researchers Transform Stem Cells Found In Human Fat Into Smooth Muscle Cell
President Bush’s Veto Of Stem Cell Bill Dashes Hope For 100 Million Americans
Stem Cell Research Foundation Applauds Passage of Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act
New Findings May One Day Help Scientists Grow Specialized Cells For Treating Neurological Disorders
Stem Cell Research Raises Hopes For A Gene Therapy To Combat AIDS
Go to Top



June 2006
Researchers Move Closer To Creating Blood Vessels From Stem Cells
Stem Cells Restore Movement In Paralyzed Rats
Researchers Show That Stem Cells Found In Adult Skin Can Be Transplanted And Function In Mouse Models Of Disease
Bone Marrow May Restore Cells Lost In Vision Diseases
New Research Will Mark A Major Step Forward In The Effort To Use Stem Cells To Treat Chronic Diseases
Go to Top



May 2006
Injecting Stem Cells From A Woman's Own Muscle May Effectively Treat Urinary Incontinence
Go to Top



April 2006
Novel Stem Cell Technology Leads To Better Spinal Cord Repair
New Animal Study Demonstrates Bone-Marrow Derived Stem Cells Can Reverse Genetic Kidney Disease
Stem Cell Transplants Improve Recovery In Animal Models For Stroke And Cerebral Palsy
Researcher Team Singles Out Cancer Stem Cells For Attack
Wake Forest Physician Reports First Human Recipients Of Laboratory-Grown Organs
Stem Cells May One Day Repair Torn Tendons Or Ligaments
Go to Top



March 2006
Stem Cell Treatment Succeeds In Spinal Cord-Injured Rats
Stem Cells Derived From Sperm Show Promise For Treating A Wide Variety Of Medical Conditions
Cell Therapy Slows Progression Of An Inherited Neurological Disease In Mice
Researchers To Study Effectiveness Of Stem Cell Transplant In Human Brain
Animal Study Shows That Marrow-Derived Stem Cells Can Deliver New Cytokine To Kill Brain Tumor Cells
Stem Cell Mobilization Therapy Appears To Be Ineffective In Repairing Damage Caused By Heart Attack
Go to Top



February 2006
Researchers Create Man-Made Prostate
Experiments In Mice Show That Adult Human Pancreas Stem Cells Can Transform Into Insulin-Producing Cells
Using Neural Growth Factor Could Allow Researchers To Mass Produce Stem Cells For Treatment Of Disease
Discovery Suggests Potential Treatment For Regenerating Nerve Tissue After Stroke
Scientists Are Testing Stem Cells For Peripheral Artery Disease
Life-Threatening Lupus Responds To Stem Cell Transplant Therapy
Go to Top



January 2006
Powerful Technique For Multiplying Adult Stem Cells May Aid Therapies
Cloned Stem Cells Prove Identical To Fertilized Stem Cells
Administering Stem Cells To Patients Who Have Suffered A Heart Attack Leads To A Reduction In The Size Of The Damage
Discredited South Korean Stem Cell Research Enrages Those Seeking New Treatments And Cures
Faults In Newly Discovered Breast Stem Cells May Lead To Tumors
Scientists Grow Two New Stem Cell Lines In Animal Cell-Free Culture
Go to Top
I do think spending tax dollars is worth these potential benefits

 

I doubt that Bizzy will make the jump but for anyone else interested in the benefits of stem-cell research here's the address http://www.stemcellresearchfoundation.org/

 

Uk is best

Note again Uk lead the way.

 

Stumber, you're just like a true misleader of information.

Let ME filter your post.

You'll recall that I'm all for adult stem cell research, and even the government funding of it. It's the Embryonic Stem Cell research I don't want funded by our Tax Dollars.

To specifically address your unbelievably misleading post:

THE STUDY DOES NOT USE HUMAN STEM CELLS, NOR DOES IT USE EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS.

I'VE NEVER OBJECTED TO THESE TYPES OF STUDIES, OR THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEM.

PUT A WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN.

THIS STUDY USES ADULT STEM CELLS.

I'VE NEVER OBJECTED TO THESE TYPES OF STUDIES, OR THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEM.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN. (I'VE GOT TWO NOW)

DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT YOU POSTED? THIS STUDY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RESEARCH USING EMBRONIC STEM CELLS. IT'S A STUDY THAT FOUND A DRUG THAT LOCATES AN ADULT STEM CELL "targets the stem cells responsible for acute myeloid leukemia and eradicates those cells in mice transplanted with the human disease."


I'VE NEVER OBJECTED TO THESE TYPES OF STUDIES, OR THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEM.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN. (I'VE GOT THREE NOW, YOU -0-)

FINALLY, AFTER DIGGING THROUGH YOUR POST, I'VE UNCOVERED A STUDY USING HUMAN ESC'S THAT SOMEHOW HELPED RATS REGAIN 70% VISUAL ACUITY.

PRIVATELY FUNDED. I HOPE THEY CONTINUE WITH PRIVATE FUNDS. SECOND, THEY DIDN'T STATE WHERE THE 18 STEM CELL LINES CAME FROM. IF THEY'RE FROM THE 60 EMBRYONIC STEM CELL LINES THAT BUSH ALREADY OK'D FOR FEDERAL FUNDING THEN GO FOR IT, OTHERWISE THEY'RE KILLING HUMAN LIFE.

CONGRAT'S! PUT A WIN IN THE 'STUMBLER' COLUMN. (BIZ 4 / STUMBLER 1)

THIS STUDY USES ADULT PIG STEM CELLS.


I'VE NEVER OBJECTED TO THESE TYPES OF STUDIES, OR THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEM.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN. (BIZ 4 / STUMBLER 1)

THIS STUDY, REPRESENTED BY 4 SENTENCES IN THE ARTICLE YOU SITE, USES THE WORDS 'MAY' AND 'COULD.' THIS STUDY CLEARLY DOES NOT REPRESENT ANY EVIDENCE OF SUCCESSFUL WORK WITH HUMAN ESC'S. MY POSITION REMAINS CLEAR. THIS IS A PRIVATELY FUNDED STUDY, KEEP IT THAT WAY.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN. (BIZ 5 / STUMBLER 1)

THIS STUDY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN ESC RESEARCH, BUT HAS A FOOTNOTE ABOUT THE SCIENTIST REGARDING PRIOR HUMAN ESC WORK THAT THE DR. DID. BUT DR. LI'S ESC WORK DID NOTHING FOR THE SUBJECT. THAT MEANS NO SUCCESS FOR THIS STUDY EITHER.

WHOPEE. YOU WANT TO SPEND FEDERAL MONEY ON NOTHING.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN. (BIZ 6 / STUMBLER 1)

I WAS SURE YOU HAD AT LEAST READ ABOUT WHAT YOU POSTED. CLEARLY YOU DIDN'T. AS I READ THE TITLE TO THIS STUDY I FIGURED THAT, JUST MAYBE, EVENTHOUGH THE TITLE SAYS 'EVERYDAY HUMAN BRAIN CELLS,' THAT IT MIGHT CONTAIN ONE ITSY BITSY REFERENCE TO HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH. BUT GUESS WHAT, NONE WAS TO BE FOUND.


I'VE NEVER OBJECTED TO THESE TYPES OF STUDIES, OR THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEM.

PUT ANOTHER WIN IN THE 'BIZ' COLUMN.

FINAL TOTALS: (BIZ 7 / STUMBLER 1)

********************

STUMBLER, ww.stemcellresearchfoundation.org IS NOT JUST ABOUT EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS, but all stem cell research. Adult, Cord, Animal, and Human Embryonic.

I've read the first 8 articles of the supposed evidence you're posting to support Government Funded Embryonic Stem Cell Research. 7 out of the 8 you posted are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Congratulations! According to my old college professors, you'd get a failing grade.

I'm not going to filter out anymore of your rhetoric in search of some bit of reality. I've got to look through too much of your shit before I find the pony. You're copy & paste method of providing evidence should at least include a little reading, shouldn't it? Clean it up, or post elsewhere.

Clearly, I've been patient, and actually did more homework on your response than you did.

Heck, you did post more than referring me to google.com, but then again, I gave you specific related articles offering my reasoning. What you gave me, supports MY beliefs more than it does yours.

 

No it doesn’t, My point is that stem cell research embryonic or other wise holds great promise for curing all kinds of aliments and research should be supported and funded by our tax dollars without delay or restriction.. But since your so obsessed with being a winner. Try this one to tell you what it‘s like to be a winner.https://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/winner.html

 

By the way there Biz just like you I'll post any bullshit I want anywhere I want, because just like you democracy doesn't guarantee that I’ll get my way but it does guarantee I’ll get my say.

 

obsessed? lol

I knew you weren't going to dig through your post & to find the EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH evidence? you're predictable, and can't read or don't care.

I think you're more obsessed with posting CRAP & seeing your name on the screen. And you've totally MISSED THE POINT. If you want to have a debate about something else, start a new thread, don't continue to confuse this one. The debate was EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH AND THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING THEREOF, not let's get the goverment to pay for any and everything that has to to with anything about stem cells.

In this thread, I can and did fight for your cause better than you, only I don't support your conclusions because they have so little behind them.

You clearly refuse to make a point here without obuscating it. Your posts are little more than empassioned pleas with little reason to support it. The only conclusion I can come up with is that you really don't have much to stand on except for the bleeding uninformed hearts of others. I just can't take advantage of people that way.

Post a real response, or quit wasting everyone's time.

 

I'll fight for your right to free speech. I'm just glad you recognized what your contribution amounts to.

 

Well excusssseee me. See if this is clear enough. I think the government should fund embryonic stem cell research. And I can't be wasteing everyone's time because I'm part of everyone and I'm having a ball.

 

There's progress we're in agreement on two points. Our right to free speech and we're both spouting bullshit.

 

Talk about false choices....

First Biz_3! claims that there have been no successes. It's worth noting that this research has been going on for less than a decade, and Biz apparently defines success in fairly absolute terms. Like, if they suddenly cured cancer, I suppose he would call that a success. Unfortunately, science doesn't work that way. People have been working diligently on finding a cure for leukemia for decades, and they've had successes. They just haven't cured it.

But anyway, we show him successes, and he says, "well, okay, I'll give you that one". Other people show him research progress, and he says "well, those are ADULT stem cells". Do they not count? Do they have NO relevance to the potential for embryonic stem cell research? Of course they do.

And it's worth noting, of course, that embryonic stem cell research has been impaired in the U.S. BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!

Okay, so he concedes that there has been research progress. Now he says it should be privately funded. But then he concludes that if private sector funding isn't forthcoming, it must be because the research isn't promising, and he doesn't answer the argument about the long-term nature of the research, and the absence of a short term payoff.

And then, when all else is lost, he falls back on the REAL issue, which is that he is "pro-life", which means he's content to throw away all of these embryos and prohibit their use in research, thereby condemning thousands of people to diseases that may someday be cured.

As for the examples cited of "people having it both ways", I can appreciate that there are people whose religion applies to THEM, personally, and nobody else. Many Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are fervent about their religion, but do not demand that EVERYONE adhere to it.

Biz, I can appreciate that you don't like your tax dollars going to cause you passionately disagree with. I'll agree that the government shouldn't tax you for stem cell research when YOU agree that the government shouldn't tax me for the war in Iraq. I would argue, though, that my cause is far more humanitarian than yours.

 

Yeah, what she said.

-S-

 

That's pretty much what I was thinking, but didn't have the patience to type it out.

Not what Kimi said, I'm referring to what Shake said.

 

Well, I guess I'm the only one that agrees with Biz 3! I'm very much against paying for something that I find morally wrong.

 

stem cell

Rain your reason is the best of all the above lengthy group of words.. There seem to be about 4 different people in this argument.. There are only two that I would choose to be on my side on a debate team..
This does not include Rain. she makes statements not arguments..

 

No, that's fine. It's Biz's insistance that it's a dead end, research wise. He's always claiming that there's no evidence that it does anything. The article I posted in the beginning was just proof that they are seeing results.

Personally I think that in the case of embryonic stem cells, if the fetuses are going to be destroyed, the cells might as well be used. It's no different then organ donation in my book. But for this thread, it was really neither here nor there.

My whole point was that it does work, they are seeing results, and if allowed free reign and with enough money to back it, we could see some amazing things in the next 10 to 15 years. If ESC's can further that effort then have at it. If evangelical conservatives are able to pull off a miracle and get abortion outlawed then you really don't have to worry about whether the cells used were from fetuses or not, since the supply would rapidly dry up. However, right now, waste not want not.

-S-