Thanks for you insightful input.

 

No problem ............ all's fair in love , war and religion .

 

If you had read my posts , you would know that I am not Christian out of a fear of god or “cosmic bargain”

See My previous post to Michael Saint to answer your questions about my own personal and spiritual path to enlightenment. I never said that I was perfect and I DID say that I use Christianity to better myself as a person. and that I am still discovering my own spirituality. It is a work in process for me. But I will continue to call myself Christian and continue to improve morally. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Dont make me dig up all those quotes again. It really has nothing to do with the ability of intelligently coming to a conclusion to believe in god (higher power.) Which is what I have been arguing from the beginning... in case you didnt get that.

Yes my spiritual side is more complex then this. Again, see above posts to Michael Saint. I dont need to go into more details about my own personal spiritual goals here. It is not relevant.

I am on the spiritual path of Christianity and will continue to follow. I will continue to label myself Christian.

I will not discuss my own personal faith with you anymore. It is irrelevant. However. I would like to continue discussing the intelligent possibility of the existence of a "creator" with you.

 

Now that is a lovely oxymoron in the context of this discussion.

 

I just see a moron!

 

Okay, fine. We'll leave your curious theology out of this.

Now, in return, you tell me why it's more logical to believe that we are here because of the existence of a being that cannot be seen, smelt, touched, tasted, or heard - a being who eludes all lines of enquiry, a being who provides no evidence of existence save anecdotal legends, a being who used to make its presence known but conveniently hasn't in any recognisable way for two thousand years, a being who is vast enough to encompass the entirety of all that is yet is personable enough to care the individual states of you and I -- but my apologies, I'm rambling.

Why is more logical to believe in the above than to believe that we are a product of time and probability?

Did you know that, given enough time, the probability of [almost] any event reaches 1? Given enough time, the probability that all the atoms in my body will disperse and reform, in their previous configuration, a few seconds later in New York becomes not a probability but a certainty?

We have had time, Brazi. More time than you and I can possibly imagine. In time-spans that last for hundreds of millions of years, probability of life becomes not just possible, but probable - perhaps even inevitable.

There is no use for your God, and no rational reason to believe in him.

Period.

 

Because time and space are actually not infinite. They are in fact finite. There was a beginning. What caused the big bang? Leaving rational reason to believe that there very well could have been another being or entity or something that I could not even begin to understand the scale of that actually started the universe.

My point is there are very real walls that exist in this universe that we have not crossed and know nothing about.

 

I am sorry for being rude with you Dave. I was just tired of defending my faith and some of the arrogance by other members. Thanks for staying on the topic.

Those are some good quotes. I ve got to get up early in the morning. But Ill reply to them tomorrow.

 

You are correct; they are not infinite.

But - and this seems to have escaped you - time has run for a very long time. A time so long, in fact, that to our puny minds it is as meaningless and impossible to grasp as infinity.

As to what came before - might I suggest M-Theory? Perhaps you are unaware of it.

Or perhaps time is circular - a loop, like a lady's pearl necklace! Where is your beginning then?

 

For brazi the issue isn't so much "is there a god" as "there must be a god", it completes his personal theory and without it his crutch slides away.

 

do us a favor and kill yourself...

 

Science takes things that are complicated to understand, and breaks things down into smaller and smaller less complicated things. if you go deep enough almost everything can be explained with a couple of simple equations.Garrett Lisi proposed a theory of everything the E8 geometry theory, providing a simple set of geometric rules that can explain everything. It has not been proven, but depending on some results found at the LHC, and a little more tweaking of the maths it could prove to be true. For me and Garrett Lisi it makes more sense that something simple came into effect, rather than something inifinitely complex coming into existance from nothing, which then created everything.

 

The Ramblings of TINY LITTLE minds

What a crock of hallucinogenic twaddle. Almost DAILY we are being shown that space is larger and larger and . . . .ad infinitum. Time is a HUMAN concept. Two weeks before the start of time and two weeks after the end of time is an IMPOSSIBILITY because I've just accounted for a month outside time - BUT that month is a measurement of TIME. ONLY human comprehension of space and time is finite - but being expanded daily.

This whole argument is raised by the seriously defective belief that, in the greater concept of REALITY, Humanity actually accounts for more than an ant fart on the continent of Africa.
Time to wake up Kiddies.

 

Proves 90% of Americans are scared of the dark, not sure if the 40%/10% thing is that accurate though..

 

I approve of this.

 

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2



I think that this quote shows Einstein's religiouse belifs best and un baised. He was an Agnositc. Due to the big bang theory he could not rule out the possibility of a "god" or "creator" of the universe. something had to have come first according. Opon Realization the time and space are infact finite and therefore leaves rational reasion to belive that "something" greater then our universe caused the effect of the "Big Bang theory"

I think that his Mystical references show that he did infact recognize a spiritual side to the unknown and the perfection of nature and science. He just could never imagine of scientificly proving it. He did not belive in a personal god, though.

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

If something simple came into effect. Something had to create it. The belif in a "higher being" that caused this effet is in no way any less inteligent or logical than beliveing that random nothingness created a universe with such obviouse perfection in its nature and scince.

In fact it is LESS inteligent and logical to belive that "Nothing started something or even everything." NOTHING CAN NOT CREATE ANYTHING.

So If you don't know for sure. Why would you want to give them a nudge? The "supposed teachings of christ are good. This can not be argued. You should actually, educate them on the dangers of orginized religion encourage them to follow christs path in their own meditation and in disscusions about his phylosophies with family and close friends as it was ment to be.

 

So you agree that there is a rational reason to believe that the universe therefore had a beginning and according to "cause and effect", there had to have been a cause to what started the expansion of the universe.

It is therefore no more logical and intelligent to believe that random nothingness created the universe then their was a superior being or entity (god) that caused the beginning of the universe.

At this realization of our understanding and crertinty of what truly exists. One then looks beyond sicence and to the here and now of their own life. This is when they ask them self. Do I feel a spiritual side. here and now. Few are unable to recognize this side. They are the spiritually retarted, They are called athiests. Many can recognize the spiritual side of nature and the earth at the level of here and now but do not know where or why it is here. Nor do they really care, they are called agnostic. Most can rcognize the spiritual side of nature and choose to explore it more by following the teachings of a certin spiritual leaders.They are called the religiouse.

The vast majority of human ity can recognize a spititual side and for the most part without question of a doubt. Those who claim to have no recognition of spirituality in anyway, athiests, are infact a small minority and logically do not have any right to there often arrogent veiws towords science and other belifs of creation.

Agreed. It is meaningless to try and grasp concepts at this level.

This suggestion is no way any more valid then the suggestion that something else caused the big bang.Nor is it any more meainingful in the life of the adverage person.

 

Now that we have plunged into the vast depths of the universe and human comprehention of "reality". I am not going to sit here and pretend that I am Albert Einstine nor am I worried about proving the existence of god.This would be a silly and pointless argument.

The intention of my contrabutions to this thread were never to prove or disprove the existence of god. Nor was I intending to convert people to my own personal faith. I was infact trying to point to the ignorance and arrogance of many athiests today. (not all athiests).

The title of this thread is "40% of Britains don't believe in God. 10% of Americans don't believe in God" Given the meaning of "God" a creator of "all". This number is not suprising and in no way a reflection of the intelligence of those who belive. As I have said bofre. Belivers make up the vast majority of not only those two nations mentioned but also of the world. The low percentage of athiests is not because of lack of education. Because your education logicaly tells me that something greater than this universe caused this universe to begin.Actually It is infact more logical to belive that even a christian god created everything, then it is too belive that nothing created everything. The reflection of this statistic shows the spiritually retarted. Those few people who are unable to recognize or comprehend spirituality around them. Athiests.

The quote which I first replyed to on this thread, below, is an example of this ignorance.

FROM MY ORIGINAL CONTRABUTION TO THIS THREAD.( I continued to explain my own faith.)

Athiests are just as arrogent, ignorant and annoying as a morman, envengelic, jahova's witness, etc. who also push their belifs on others as "the only way". The fact is as humanity we still have no idea what created us. We just know that we WERE created. As nothing can not possibly create something. Let alone everything. This would be considered illogical.

If an athiest had any brains or knowlege of what they were talking about they would refer to theselves as agnostic, at the lest. Infact, by calling yourself an athiest or considiering another persons spiritual belifs to be WRONG is nothing more than ignorance. And to vocally and at times aggressivly express your belifs conuld not be called anything other then arrogance.

Ignorance and arrogance is not a good combo. I suggest that you rethink your belifs. Or stay ignorant because it really is bliss.I will admit to siding with ignorance when it comes to my own personal faith. However, do not claim that you are RIGHT. You do not know anymore then the next. This is arrogance.

 

i

 

Brazi, I am at a loss for words.

Let me put this to you: what you call 'spirituality' is merely the fashion in which your subconscious mind interprets wonder at the world around us.

And let me put this to you also: the word is 'retarded'. It contains two D's.