Now, I completely agree that poorly defined, often changing, and unposted rules are complete bullshit. I also agree that prose porn can have teenagers under 18 in sex scenes without being a pedophile thing, though if one is gun-shy of legal disputes it's not unreasonable to try to avoid problems.

But I don't think this rule means under-18 characters have to be sexually neuter, you just can't have them actively participating in sexual activity or talking about their sexual exploits in any meaningful detail. It's likely that an 18 year old character mentioning off-hand that they lost their virginity at 16 isn't a big deal. On the other side of things, these days even an 18 year old virgin knows that the penis goes in the vagina, and what oral sex is, etc. They may not know how to do it well, but they know what it involves. I suspect (and hope) that's what this rule is getting at.

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Actually, some don't. Depending on family background and upbringing, some teenagers are still pretty ignorant when they hit age eighteen. They may have had the basic birds and bees talk, but little else except tall tales in the locker room.

In my part of the country, in my own experience working with teenage kids, I was shocked at the ignorance and misinformation. One college-age girl "knew" a girl couldn't get pregnant her first time. These weren't idiots. Just uneducated.

 

Right, but we're talking about on the average here, not the outliers. There are sheltered kids with restrictive parents all over, but there are far more who have spent plenty of time with internet porn while they are still virgins under 18. We're also talking about fiction, not reality. It doesn't matter if the girl is 16 or 20, you don't write in that she doesn't know the penis goes in the vagina unless that's meant to fulfill your kink and the kink of your readers, and it's not all that crazy to think that's a kink that skews towards younger.

Now, obviously this needs further clarification on what level of ignorance is over the line. Details haven't been offered on the "questions about sex" in a story that prompted all this. If problematic questions are reserved for things like "Okay we're naked, now what happens?" and "Oh my, why did my penis get hard?" that doesn't strike me as an outlandish restriction. If things like a girl thinking that she can't get pregnant her first time or "I've never been fucked in my ass before, will it hurt?" are red flags then that is more problematic. I don't think 18 year old characters need to be experts on all things sexual as long as they at least know, as you said, the basic birds and bees and some locker room tall tales.

 

I may be a bit under the rock around here, but I did like the previous age restriction of 16. I mean I have come across a few stories which is labelled "real" and then a 40+ male/female has sex with a 12 year old. No offense, but I find that disgusting. At least I know from my own sheltered up-bringing that 16 is a time where most children (and I grew up in a small, highly conservative town, where you are an outsider if you are known to stare too long at a cleavage) start to ask their questions and do their secret experimenting around 16 (give or take a year or two downwards).

Also you are normally seen as a teenager when you hit 13 and a young adult, thus "grown-up" when you hit 18, so a teen story can stretch from 16 - 18 in my opinion (which nobody of course asked for). I would not really say that this site is the wrong place, again on other sites I might have to read about 10 - 15 year old girls seducing a male of 30 - 40 and the two of them have consensual sex...to that I say: "Bullshit my friend, that is friggen rape."

OK so in a way, if a 20 something teacher seduces that 16 year old boy, it is practically the same thing, as is the part where two people ranging from 10 -20 (again give or take) experiment with each other, I start to get fidgety. I think that once you start to read and learn about sex, you don't need to do it, I learned all I needed to know about sex from a book. My parents never did sit me down and tell me anything, as I grew older, I learned more from books and later the internet. So you can NOT be totally naive when it comes to sex and you reach 18, I don't care how strict you're being raised, somewhere you will see dogs, cats, birds etc do their thing and start to wonder about it. So even if you reach 18 you will have some sort of idea. I just think the new rule is set up in such a way that you can't explain how your character came to this knowledge in detail.

OK by now I am rambling, I just wanted to say, that though I do not really enjoy the new rules, it just changed the scope of some of my stories. I will not leave here quite yet.

 

Since you quoted my post to make your point.

Since I was 13 or 14 I was sexually aware and wanted to have sex with a female. That's where my CAW 23 story came from, I wanted to get it on with my gym mistress when I was 14. As far as I know having sex with a 14 year old boy is not illegal where I was. A teacher having sex with a student is a very bad idea, but as a 14 year old horny boy, I wouldn't have cared about that technicality. I still get turned on by the idea of a 14 year old boy (me, or a proxy) having sex with a female teacher, the 14 year old boy is still in there somewhere. There are a surprising number of new stories about that, which I avidly read.

For the CAW I changed my age to 18, to fit with the then perceived rules. A lot about the story changed because of the different age of the hero. It was probably a better story because of the change, that doesn't make me any less miffed at the rule. I originally meant to write the story as a 14 year old, "with the serial numbers filed off", so I would be "18". I had intended so I could change the number to 14 and magically it would be the right story. I'm presuming that this sort of thing is what the new (totally stupid) rules are supposed to prevent.

But that wasn't the story I ended up writing, it really did turn into an 18 year old. I did throw in a few plot points which made being 18 actually important, but the story didn't really need them, and the character could really have been late 17 year old without many changes. Even being plausibly 18, he still was totally clueless about sex. He knew a lot of things, none of which really helped him. One of my alternate versions of the story used that as a plot point.

By the new rules, that story should be pulled, as should just about all the stories I've written starring those same characters. They all hinge on sexual naiveté, which is no longer allowed. They all should be pulled under the new rules. That's the bullshit I'm complaining about. That's what makes me want to set up an alternate site.

One point I'm making is that sexual naiveté is a reasonable and interesting thing to write about. Banning it is just so utterly ridiculous.

For the record, girls were legal at age 16 where I came from. Given the chance, I would have ignored that nicety.

 

Well Stex I understand where you are coming from and by age 13 I was rather well aware of how sex and pregnancy works. None of my peers did know this.

Now at the named age we had a smokin' hot secretary at school. So not a teacher hmmm...but if one did become sucessful in sexual conquest of said dame, she would have been brought up on statituary rape charges even if I were the one who actively pursued this relation. All I am saying is that you can't be totally clueless at 18. You may know the ins-and-outs(pun intended), but not know of the sensations and emotional aspect of the act itself.

 

As the Old Saying goes; you can please Most of the People Some of the Time, you can please Some of the people Most of the Time, But you Can't Please All of the People ALL of the time.

Julius Cesar
Capt. John Smith
Edgar Allen Poe
Mohammad
Many Crowned heads of Europe in the 14th to 19th centuries.

just a small list of those who would NOW be called Child Molesters.

 

Well, I guess that's the death of this thread. Woo hoo.

 

That song!

 

Is nice to know that this matter is being approach on a mature way.

 

Did any of you perhaps think I should have addressed the public name calling by a professional?

I think it did. Get it straight - I'm the dancing queen.

 

I find myself wondering who you are. Sock, troll, or resident brown noser?

 

*sigh* This is what happens when you have opinions that differ from the rest, and you dare to speak. OH WELL! *shrugs*

 

Well guys she did you like a dinner on that one.

That was a really creepy story and I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did.

on the other hand under age characters partipating in sexual activity is rife on the story site and this is new stuff not the old ones.

The reason for this Ilovemyjob is?

 

I'm sure your next question is: But what about the kiddie porn stories on the other site? I've repeatedly used the report button and am just now aware that it does not work. This would be why there are over 8400 stories in the "young" category. None of the stories are being reviewed, approved or removed, unless their links are sent to our administrator.

I was shocked! The first 6 stories I clicked on didn't have characters older than 13 and as young as....well, I'm ashamed to say. I am amazed this hasn't been a priority, considering how firm they had us be in the forum. I would have thought it would be a priority, but I guess unless the administrator is notified directly, the stories will remain, breaking the unpublished age rule. Please, if you see these stories, contact our administrator.

 

Okay, I will take up the task...and you did ask for constructive criticism:

Just because there's a physiological reaction going on, that doesn't mean you know WHY it is going on. And, we're not dealing with a question of whether EVERY girls knows what's going on, we're answering the question of whether just one girl COULD possibly not know what's going on. In a jury trial (in the United States, and certainly in other countries, though I cannot say every country), the prosecution has to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that their case is solid. I submit to you that you cannot categorically state that every single girl born in the 20th century knows every single physiological response that her body has by age 18. I'm not talking 90%, or 99% or 99.999%. You'd have to be able to say, or actually prove, that it's 100%.

What you are saying above is that IF the body does something by itself, the person should know exactly why it is happening. Okay, let me give you a perfect example of why that isn't true.

Menstruation. Are you able to say that all 100% of females know exactly what is happening with their bodies when one day blood flows from their vagina? 100%? My theory is that IF a girl lived in a religious community that was closed to the general public (a good example of this was on the HBO show "Big Love"), and her mother failed to teach her about that bodily function, then when it happened she would be scared shitless. Keep in mind that all it takes is one example, one possibility, for WSF's story to have validity.

By my reading of the above, she DOES know that it is inappropriate. The above could be interpreted as a form of sarcasm. Sarcasm is (from Merriam-Webster) "the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say especially in order to insult someone, to show irritation, or to be funny." Children don't use sarcasm, their speech patterns and word usage aren't sufficiently advanced to understand the nuances, but an 18 year old is certainly advanced enough to use it. That's what I see by that statement. "Dad, I was really pissed at my teacher, but I figured I probably shouldn't shoot her." Did the kid really want to shoot the teacher, or was he/she employing the "show irritation" part of sarcasm?

She knew it was inappropriate, and that's why she didn't do it, which in fact does show advanced maturity. By referencing that quote, you actually make it easier for me to show that she does appear older and more mature.

That's not a question of her knowing what roles family members play, that's someone using logic to try and win an argument. Granted, the logic is somewhat convoluted, but, just like sarcasm, the use of logic in an argument isn't something that you'd expect to find from a younger teen vs. an older teen. Again, you're making my job here easier. Behind the scenes, she's making the same argument that thousands of stories at this site make, that incest, though illegal, isn't wrong.

Look at the flavor of the dialog. Does that look like the dialog of an under 18 person?

It's not a question of her knowing the difference, it's a question of her arguing for her place in the family. The "mom" is gone. She recognizes that, and wants to take her Mom's place in the family. THAT's a mature stance. She recognizes that her Dad has "adult needs". She loves him and wants to be the one who can provide that fulfillment for him. THAT's a mature attitude. It may be morally wrong. It may be illegal. It may be a lot of things, but those things aren't the point. The point is that she's displaying advanced logic to win an argument. Again, with reading that dialog, is it POSSIBLE that the advanced logic and advanced dialog would have a better chance of coming from an 18 year old than a younger person?

It's that whole "beyond a shadow of doubt" thing.

WSF does not state the age, so we have to draw conclusions. It appears that it simply comes down to your opinion. If you wish to censor the story based on your interpretation, you of course have that right as Site Administrator. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. If I can logically prove that it is POSSIBLE that at least one 18 year could fit the characteristics above, then it should matter. But it is your site to administer as you see fit. Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Idi Amin...they all ruled with an iron hand as was their right, being absolutely in-charge. You, of course, aren't wicked like them, but you do have the same final say, and while your decision certainly does not affect the life or death of a country's citizens, your decision does have far more impact that simply pulling a story, and I'm pretty sure that you are aware of that.

I don't understand. You pulled WSF's story based on your interpretation that his dialog and prose leads readers to the impression that his central character is under 18, yet, you say that said questions ARE okay, that a character can be naive and uneducated. I see that as a contradiction. That's very confusing!

 

Horse said something about menstruation that made me think. See, my mom gave me the birds and bees talk when I was nine. Or rather, she told me about the birds. She didn't think I needed to know about the bees until I was much older. Never got around to tell me about them, to be honest. What I knew about men and sex, I found out from Mills and Boon. And we all know how scientifically, physiologically and factually correct those books are, right? The first time I accidentally masturbated, I had NO idea what happened. In fact, for the first three years after it happened, I naively believed I had stumbled upon something nobody else in the world knew about. I was 18 before I realised other people do it too. Of course I knew they had sex and orgasms, but I was stupid enough not to put two and two together and realise they masturbated.

So, at 18, I barely knew anything about actual sex, other than what I'd learned from the dusty pages of Silhouette Desire books. Therefore, my knowledge consisted of a few facts - men are all huge down there and can go four rounds a night; women always come from penetration alone and other people don't seem to have bad breath in the morning, considering how often they kiss after eight solid hours of sleep.

So, you can sure as hell bet I didn't understand WHY I got wet... only that I COULD.

My point is, at 18, I didn't know much more of sex than the character in the WSF's story did. If I remember correctly, the story mentioned that she had her driver's license. In South Africa, we can't get our driver's license until we turn 18. So that already made me think she was at least 18.

Another fun story... when I was a third year student, my best friend was very religious. She was known throughout campus as being a leader in church. Long story short, one day a girl knocked on her door and asked my friend to go pray for her friend, who was sick. I went with my friend, figuring the girl in question had the flu or something and just loved being dramatic.

Oh, if only. I should interrupt myself o explain here that some cultures in South Africa are somewhat... different. They believe in spirits and demons and charms. Basic voodoo witchy stuff.

So, anyway, we found the girl lying on her bed, clutching her stomach and wailing hysterically. Her friend told us, 'you have to pray for her. She's sick. Every month a demon goes inside her body and makes her pee blood.'

So, this is a 19 year old girl who doesn't know what menstruation is. Admittedly, she lived in a small, obscure little mud village where ignorance is served with every meal, but still. It's possible her parents didn't tell her that menstruation has anything to do with pregnancies - because they didn't know themselves.

My point, convoluted as it may be, is that you can't say al 18 year olds know everything about sex just because you did.

So, exactly what some other people also said.

Make no mistake - I really hate pedo stories. Search some of the old threads and it will show my heartfelt hatred of pedophile stories. However, I read the whole Question series, and it was not pedo.

I must wonder, respectfully, why our esteemed admin finally got around to removing the pedo stories on the site. After all this time? Why now, suddenly?