People have strong ideas on who or what comes into the country, and we can listen to their ideas. But in reality, it's not a christian/Islam thing. It's an ignorance thing. Yes we should welcome any faith into our country, being a Muslim has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. It's the way the media focuses on it. When a white Christian went into a church and killed other christians it wasn't religious terrorism of violent Christian extremism. It was a "hate crime" So tell me how hating an entire religion for no other reason than fear will make us safer.

 

Here is a short video (about 6 min) that talks about Moderate Moslems within Islam. The speaker has many more videos and books but this will get you started.

Maggie.... you should view this too.

 

Well, I watched it. Six minutes of my life wasted.

Robert Spencer is a clever, even devious, man, an excellent orator and inherently incorrect in many of his assumptions. His blatant bias against Islam is obvious, as is his whitewashing of the Catholic church. Spencer has become a wealthy man by spouting his views, but they are still just his opinions. He has no facts to back them up.

If you sift carefully through his words there he states that most Muslims will not rise up and take arms against 'us', which is correct, but he uses the idea that the vast majority of Muslims will not rise up against the jihadi minority as a stick with which to beat Islam in general. We have never blamed the innocent non-combatants in any other terrorist situation - we did not demonize the entire Irish population because a minority killed thousands of people, we are not likely to attack Spain because of the outrages carried out by ETA, nor the New People's Army of the Philippines, the ELN in Colombia and many more (I could go on).

Blaming all Muslims for the sins of a few is not only wrong but it is counter-productive. It fosters the 'them and us' situation and does not encourage integration. The West needs to stand firm on it's laws and customs but focus on those who would spread hatred, terror and violence.

While a feeling of alienation exists Muslims settling in the West (or being born into it) will cling to their ideals instead of mixing in - they will hold on to the old tenets of Sharia, not integrating with the existing population.

I dislike Islam, I believe that it is an outdated and obsolete set of values mired in the rhetoric of the Middle-Ages but we must encourage Muslims to become more forward thinking, not to regard ourselves as at war with all of them - hatred will only begat more hatred.

 

Society is becoming polarised. It's an us or them mentality. There is no in between. The far right has grown strong because of the immigrant/refugee issue. Look at Austria for example.

 

Europe is going to follow Austria. Mark my words.

 

And while you're stretching reality into laffy-taffy in pursuit of moral relativism, don't forget Timothy McVeigh!

 

Most of the European countries are moving politically to the right. It seems to be most noticeable in France (@Wee Hector will be able to give more accurate details than I), but here UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party), who had been regarded as a joke minority party since it's formation in the mid 1990's up to 2013 suddenly became a viable alternative party before last year's general election, where they won 12% of the votes, 3.8 million people voted for them but because of our odd electoral system only one of their candidates was elected to the House Of Commons among 650 MP's.

I don't think it's entirely bad - I think wishy-washy left-wing pandering to Islam will allow too much freedom for extremism to breed and spread, but on the other hand many of these hard-line right wing parties have backward views on subjects such as same-sex marriage, so it seems that we are caught between two imperfect solutions.

 

Thanks for the tag, Jayney. Here in France there has been a massive build-up in support for the National Front but they are as far away as ever from power. They have, however, brought about major changes such as banning the wearing of the burqa in public. The other parties have had to take note of public opinion and change their policies accordingly, notably pushing the Socialists further to the right, as happened in Britain to Labour under Blair. The French, as can be seen by the latest round of demonstrations and strikes, are very much hands-on when they disagree with something. The reason the FN will never come to power is because the left see them as an illegitimate, non-republican party and will vote for a republican right-wing candidate instead. Thus, the left would vote for Sarkozy in a run-off against LePen, even though there is little difference between them policy-wise. Whether the right would reciprocate in a run-off between LePen and a Socialist candidate is, as yet, an unknown factor.

 

I hope so.

 

That has been the 'UKIP' effect over here. The Conservatives had to promise a referendum on EU membership in their 2015 manifesto to placate the growing anti-EU, anti-open borders & anti-immigration opinions in the electorate. There have been more promises to limit immigration and the paying of social security benefits to immigrants as well.

At the moment it appears that there is a definite concerted effort by most of the media to convince the public that remaining in the EU will be the best for Britain, but personally I disagree. Although I'm not in favour of an extreme right-wing government I do believe that some degree of control needs to be put in place to eliminate the extremists who would cause terror.

 

A lot of working class Europeans who used to vote for leftist parties are now voting for parties that promise to keep the Muslims and the Negroes out. This is because they see the Muslims and Negroes up close every day and know what they are like. Elite liberals live in safe, which is to say all white neighborhoods, so they do not have to pay the price for their "ideals."

 

Wow... I don't know where to begin. How is it possible that you can have failed to understand so little about Islam.

(1) Islam is an ideology so you can't compare it to a political movement. When you say that "we did not demonize the entire Irish population because a minority killed thousands of people." that is totally irrelevant. Being Irish does not compel all Irish people to kill all those that are not Irish. (2) Moslems, on the other hand are compelled by their religious convictions and the mandates of their religious laws, to hate all those that are not Moslem and to do everything they can to force all non-Moslems to convert to Islam or forfeit their lives. I know that sounds strange to people who don't really know what Islam is all about but that is the truth. (3) we can't negotiate with Islam or convince them to change. Moslems are not at liberty to compromise their religious beliefs because their religion does not tolerate criticism nor will it accept change or anyone leaving Islam. Doing any of those things is punishable by death. (4) What we do or say is not what motivates Moslems to act. Their unchangeable mandate is set in stone by Allah himself and any Moslem that is not willing to do his part to make the world Islamic is to be treated like the infidel and killed. That's why they kill their own.

I'm sure you don't believe me and that you will not make any effort to find out for yourself because you think the ideas I am sharing with you are so ludicrous that it is not worth investigating, but I have carefully investigated Islam and I am sad to say that what I am posting here is absolutely true. I am sad because it's hard to believe human beings could be so cold hearted and cruel that they are willing to torture and kill men women and children who will not convert to their religion. But look at what ISIS is doing and ask yourself 'what could inspire people to do these horrible things?' The answer is simple. It is because they are following a religion that was developed by a WARLOAD who used it to inspire his warriors to invade, murder, plunder, rape and enslave the people of three continents. Mohammed died an extremely wealthy man so his followers followed his example and have tried to continue to invade, murder, plunder, rape and enslave the world.

Another sad truth is that, no one can expose people to things they refuse to see.

By the way, if you want to hear the facts that Robert Spencer uses to support his arguments, you'll have to watch for more then 6 minutes. Watch some of his longer videos. (you may also benefit from watching the video I posted about the history of Islam a few pages back.) I also recommend you watch with an open mind so you don't close yourself off from what he is trying to tell you. What he has to say may someday save your life and the life of your children, your culture and your freedom, because that is what is at stake.

 

Not quite. Most Europeans couldn't give a damn about skin colour, we have moved past that, but you are correct that many voters have shifted to the right because (rightly or not) they are worried about the threat posed to our way of life by radical Islam.

 

They are rightly worried. They are also rightly worried about the influx of lots of Negroes.

The worst mistake we ever made over on this side of the pond was to allow the slave trade. That was our original sin. For it we will be punished eternally. European whites need to stop making a comparable mistake by allowing Negro immigration.

 

I disagree. Please don't think of me as ignorant Hardive. I have an open mind but I also have more experience of Muslims than you. I have lived and worked with them. In the USA you have approximately 3 million Muslims out of a population of 318 million, around 1% of the population. In the UK we also have approximately 3 million Muslims, but in a population of 64 million, about 5%. I have researched, and I also have first hand experience with Muslims, peaceful, law-abiding Muslims. That is not to say I believe all the 'Religion Of Peace' bullshit - it isn't, it is an occasionally hateful doctrine but most of its followers do not have any intention of carrying out atrocities, certainly not those who have moved to the West.

All the Muslims I know simply want to get on with their lives, they have no desire to hate or kill. All you hear about in the media are scare stories about a small minority, a lunatic fringe who wish to spread their ideals by terror. I am not saying that the evils carried out by Daesh are a fringe - they are an organised and warlike sect who cannot be allowed to gain control in the Middle-East (although another war by the West will not be the solution).

It is more than relevant to compare jihadis to other terrorists - they are a minority who do not represent the whole of their community, like the IRA (a religious organisation as well as a political one).

In the end it is counter-productive of people like Spencer to demonize the whole of Islam, it merely furthers an 'us and them' sentiment, which is unhelpful. You cannot simply get rid of Islam, as archaic as it is - there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, if they were all likely to rise up then a global conflict the likes of which we have never seen would be occurring, but it is not.

 

I basically agree with some of what you say Janney. My son works with some Moslems and he tells me they are good people. I can't argue with him because he knows them and I don't. However, I know Islam and I can not understand how anyone in their right mind would call themselves a Moslem if they don't agree with Islam. It's like belonging to a street gang that sells drugs and protects it's territory with guns and violence, but claiming they don't believe in committing crimes. You can't have it both ways... or am I missing something??? Is there something I don't understand that would make being a Moslem and being a good peaceful person perfectly reasonable.

I think the cause of our disagreement is that you are talking abut individual Moslems and I am talking about the Islamic Ideology. You seem to have no problem separating the two and I can't see how anyone can do that. Without its followers there would be no Islam. That' why I feel fully justified in demonizing that hateful Satanic cult and anyone that counts themselves as part of their adherents. After all, the Nazis were bad but anyone who didn't want to be associated with that bunch of ruthless killers, could turn in their cards and stop being a Nazi. Same with the Mafia and the same with the Islamist. That sounds perfectly logical to me. If you don't want to be called a Nazi, stop being a Nazi.... but you and I know that's not true. People didn't give up being Nazis until we defeated Germany.

After reading what it says in their sacred books I can tell you that Islam is a satanic cult. However I understand that peaceful Moslems can't disagree with Islam and they can't leave for fear of being killed. That may be true if they lived in the middle-east but once they've made it to a western country and have the full protection of the law, why would they continue to be associated with that barbaric religion? They wouldn't, unless they feel that other Muslims in their community are so brainwashed and so dedicated to that crazy cult that Moslems that don't want to be Moslems have to continue pretending to be Moslems because they are afraid that not even the protection of the law will keep them from being killed. If that's the case you can't blame the rest of us for being afraid of what those crazy Moslems are capable of doing.

As for ISIS not representing the majority of Moslems. They probably don't. However they do represent 100 percent of the tenants, beliefs and goals of Islam. ISIS is doing exactly what Islam tells them to do. So how do we defeat ISIS without killing those 1.2 Billion Moslems that inhabit the earth. Well, we can't kill every individual Moslem in the world so we are going to have to be satisfied with Killing the ideas that Islam promotes.

We start by pushing hard against ISIS to take away their power, then we attack the ideas they are fighting for. Now, we can't kill Islam all at once but we can start to change it from the inside. We start by exposing some of the inconsistencies of Islam and offer alternative views. Yes, I'm talking about reforming Islam with a less hateful and dangerous version. That way we can offer the peaceful Moslems (whom you say are the overwhelming Majority) an alternative form of Islam to follow. If we start pushing that alternative view with a campaign like the one used to sell coke, (use your imagination) we might be able to start a world wide discussion among Moslems that might get them to reexamine their faith and start thinking about making reforms. After all, the best way to kill an idea is with another idea. Don't ask me how we do that cause I haven't gone that far with my thinking... however I think former Moslems would be the best people to come up with the best way to promote a reform.

 

If it was made public that there are extraterrestrial beings and that they have their own religion then what value does any religion here on earth have?

 

Besides their contributions to music and architecture? None.

 

I might be able to live with a Muslim. I imagine we'd get into all kinds of wacky hijinx due to cultural misunderstandings. It'd be like living in a sitcom. "Mohamed and the Wolfman", coming to Fox, this fall!