Yeah, right TJ. We turn Israel into the fifth largest and one of the most sophisticated armies in the world and then turn the loose in a fair fight against the Palestinians with rifles and missile's they can't hit shit with.

Showing your true colors there tenguy. Nuke 'em cause they ain't like us.

The amount of aide we give to Israel averages out to about $5,000 per person per year. That does not count the billions they receive from other backers. We've bought and paid for Israel's success.

Instead why don't we question what appears to be a totally outrageous claim to me. Do you have any sources for this tenguy or are you just blowing smoke.

It was used and still is used to fund the lifestyles of the very few super rich elite which the Oil industry and the US government have always favored because its a lot easier to deal with a few fat cats then a country. You never see them calling for democracy in Kuwait or Saudi Arabia now do you tenguy?

Maybe they're scared to. After all the Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist and look what it got them.

 

I think a major problem the USA has in dealing with Gaza is that the Hamas are on the terrorist list so Obama cannot official deal with them.
You would have to go through the West Bank and they dont like Hamas either.

 

Its my bedtime but I think I have enough time to play a quick game of Who's clueless

Sure it does. What you said was:

Ethnic hatred? Like that's a problem only in the Middle East? Human rights? Like that's a problem only in the Middle East or in all other nations in the Middle East except Israel of course. Gender discrimination? Because Muslims have a different value system then newly reformed Christians like yourself. (Let's not forget gender discrimination still exists right here in the good old USA and it was not too long ago it was institutionalized in both our religion and our society). But they are bad people because they are different then the way you want to see us.

I'll make you a bet right here and now tenguy. I bet what ever we have given to the Arab countries is a fraction of what we give to Israel. Now take the bet and lay out your proof and I'll lay out mine or do the impossible and admit you're wrong.

Now that's not what you said at all is it there tenguy. What you said was:

Military hardware is not aide from the West and Eurasians. Those are arms sales mostly from two sources Russia and the good old USA. That in no way can compare to the billions and billions of dollars the US has given to Israel in non-military foreign aide.

But I will answer one question for you. Iran's F4's came from the US Government to help prop up the dictatorship of the Shaw of Iran after we disposed of their democratically elected Prime Minister.

Now if you ask me not being able to even remember what you said is pretty clueless tenguy.

What are you just acting dumb tenguy or are you clueless? What I pretty clearly stated is you don't see the US or people like yourself calling for democarcies in places like Saudi Arabia or Kuwait because they are our oil buddies.

Its hypocracy at its finest. We claim to want to spread democarcy (at the point of a gun) but not if a barrel of oil can be had in the bargin. Then its ok to have a repressive dictatorship.

I have wised up. Wised up enough to know and provide even you with documentation that Israel not only resorted to terrorism in the first place but provoked those wars you're talking about in the second place for a planned land grab.

When are you going to wise up to a carefully orchestrated and maintained myth that even a former Israelie Prime Minister has admitted to.

Cue Bob Dylan--How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, n how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, n how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before theyre forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind,
The answer is blowin in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, n how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, n how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind,
The answer is blowin in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before its washed to the sea?
Yes, n how many years can some people exist
Before theyre allowed to be free?
Yes, n how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesnt see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind,

But I got a couple of questions for you tenguy how many innocents died during this last Israeli invasion of Iraq. And what's the total number of Palestinians killed in the past 60 compared to Isralis. Of course in your mindset since they were Palestinians and different from us none of them could be innocent can they?

I think we've pretty well established who's clueless here tenguy.

And I see you're back to your old favorite trick of when you're losing an argument just make up some false accusations.

Fuck you and good night tenguy.

 

Now this is rude, Stumbler, first you answer my question with a question, and then after I have taken time out to give what you say, a lot of thought, you ignore me.
To me this exempts you to criticize ANYONE here for behaviour.
We have had some good posts in the past. I know you have a hardon for tenguy, but surely you can spare 10 or 15 min? for me!

ps read Ann Coulter's book! Maybe you will learn what a fine mind she has for taking apart piecemeal the "theory of evolution". just a suggestion.
oops, things are not well with 10dude, maybe a break?

 

Yep, war is hell and barbaric and human beings caught up in are liable to do some atrocious and horrendous things. No doubt about it. But we are not talking about the atrocities individual soldiers might commit. We talking about a government (Israel) that chooses to use white phosphorus shells on civilian populations (in violation of international law). The same government that has in the past dropped cluster bombs on civilian populations and used depleted uranium shells on civilian populations.

A government that punishes and kills huge segments of a helpless population for the actions of a few.

You are really so full of shit Heyesey I don't know why I waste my time with you except to set the record straight.

Here read all about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Oh bullshit. First let's remember what you said, which was:

Now try reading a few things and learning something before you just run your mouth.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/01/19/international/i061257S49.DTL

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/news/files/pressreleases/Gaza-20m.asp

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...-pledge-aid-without-specifics-to-rebuild-Gaza

The more realistic estimates are there are as many as 600,000 civilian deaths since we've invaded Iraq and we've certainily been responsible for an unforgivable number of them. Its one reason many people want to charge George Bush and Dick Cheney with war crimes and I'm all for it.

But the American public by in large does not go support the war in Iraq and it is one of the primary reason George Bush leaves office with the lowest approval rating in history. Like I said hopefully we have learned out lesson.

However, the idea that if some terrorists fired missiles from Mexico into the US that we would bomb and shell populated areas with no regard for civilian casualties is still patently ridiculous.

Oh I see. In order to fight the drug war we should have left the political party that actually helped attack us and harbored the individuals who did attack us to remain in power. Fuck yes using that logic we should just go ahead and nuke Mexico because of the drugs that cross our borders.

Reach a fair and meaningful peaceful settlement with the Palestinians which Israel has steadfastly refused to do for the past 60 years.

The proof of that is it was none other then Israel that secretly help fund Hamas and undercut the peace progress that was being made by the Palestinian Authority after they had agreed to recognize Israel's right to exist. It is Israel that does not want peace.

Like I said before read something and learn before you just run your mouth.

http://boomcrunchcrash.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/roadaccidentsvshamas/

Well congratulations I think you've topped your killing Mexican civilians analogy with this one. Under the Marshall Plan the US agreed to rebuild Europe after World War II. It was a win win situation. It built a enormous amount of good will towards the United States and it was also a provided an incredible economic opportunity. But it was a two way street.

Now lets look at Israel. They were created by UN Mandate. Israel was supported by the West and especially the United States. Over the years they have received hundreds of billions of dollars from the US alone. They also been essentially given the fifth largest army and the world. And most importantly the West and the US has turned a totally blind eye to Israel's aggression and treatment of the Palestinians. Its been a totally one way street with Israel.

Bullfuckingshit!! Now one of the single biggest problems is the blind eye the western media has always turned towards Israel's war and international crimes.

Want a perfect example? How many of the major news media are carrying the story about the white phosphorus shells. You have to look to find that story.

OIL
​

Don't get your panties all in a wad. If you'd read my comment to tenguy you'd have known I was already headed for bed when I stumbled on his bullshit quasi attack and it took me about ten minutes to beat it out.

Between getting to the rig, 12 hours of swinging a sledge hammer, and getting back to camp and getting something to eat that is 15 hours. So yeah, five or ten minutes does matter to me, when I've only got an hour to get cleaned up, hit the forum and go to bed.

 

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

"Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago."



​

 

Too bad you refuse to acknowledge the hostile neighborhood that Israel has been thrust into. You only think of the poor Palestinian being beaten up by the big bully Israel.

You refuse to acknowledge that the Palestinian citizenry is being played like a pawn by Iran, Syria and other Arab states who were unable to defeat Israel in conventional warfare. Instead you support the Hamas (and current terrorist tactic of others) to hide among the poor, lob rockets and other munitions into Israel and then cry foul when they fight back.

Since you don't seem to want to examine or consider the past 85 years of the Israeli (including the post-WWI era) struggle for survival, there is no point in discussing the issue with you.

Your last line says it all. Only losers resort to that tactic.

 

As I've already said many times tenguy you're not only entrenched in your dogmatic bullshit you are also both academically and intellectually dishonest.

Allow me to demonstrate.

Unlike you I acknowledge the modern history of the Middle East since World War I. The betrayal, the exploitation, the manipulation, and the creation of Israel despite the objections of the Arab people.

And what you refuse to acknowledge is that Israel's behavior which included retorting to terrorism and ethnic cleansing is at the heart of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as Israel's refusal to negotiate a meaningful peace agreement with them.

Bullshit. I've never denied that the Palestinians are being manipulated by outside interests and agitators but what you refuse to acknowledge is that Israel is one of those manipulators. Israel even resorted to secretly funding Hamas in the beginning to divide the Palestinians and derail the progress they were making towards peace which included recognizing Israel's right to exist and agreeing to a two state solution.

Now here is where, as one of your usual tactics, you resort to lieblous attempted character assassination with completely false claims highlighting your basic dishonesty.

And as usual I can prove it by challenging you to find one post where I have supported either terrorist tactics or Hamas for that matter. What I have consistently cried foul on is it is hypocritical for Israel to resort to terrorism and then complain that there enimies are using the same tactics.

Let me put in more simple terms. You're a liar tenguy.

Another blatant lie tenguy. Obviously I've done more then "consider" the past 85 years of the Middle East, I've researched and studied it, and debunked Israel's "struggle for survival" for the carefully constructed and maintained myth that it actually is.

Good. Then shut the fuck up about it because your lies and false accusations piss me off.

No tenguy its people who make shit up, resort to lies and hysterics that are the losers and as I pointed out in the previous post clueless.

 

Hi Stumb, thanks for your reply..lol .maybe you have answered my Q's or commented with regard to things to tenguy. That's hard work for sure. In hard rock mining I worked as a driller's helper, so I have some understanding here. Its time I reviewed some posts.
Peace
Waf

 

Hamas' week long ceasefire in the gaza strip expires today
the group is threatening to resume rocket attacks on Israel if border crossing are not reopened at 10an (UK time ) Hamas has claimed a great victory and joined the truce but only for one week

 

What was false?? Where did I lie??

You can only come back with pro-Palestinian rhetoric, why should you accept Israel's right to exist and to defend herself? Because the underlying factor in your rants is that Israel was thrust upon the Arabs without their consent and that she somehow has no right to exist.

You tout the fact that the US and the West has supported Israel, you ignore the fact that the current situation has it's roots in the Cold War, where the Communist Bloc supported Israels enemies.

Do you doubt that if the Israeli armed forces were not both well equipped and that she is willing to use those forces, that she would not exist today?

Oil is an important export for the region, those who have actively sought it are not just Western countries. The wealth that oil has brought to the region has been hoarded by those who claim divine leadership, by birth not by public choice. Yet you think that the Arab peoples have been exploited by the West, how naive.

No you are the loser, your myopic view of the Middle East is very evident.

 

Right here tenguy:

Now that's bullshit tenguy and something you have accused me often but can't find a single post where I have supported either Hamas or terrorist tactics. I'll say it again, by problem is Israel's heavy handed and dishonest treatment of the Palestinian people. My problem is the blind support the US has given Israel for the past 60 years. My problem is Israel constantly propagating the myth that they are under constant threat of annihilation. My problem is Israel's constant cry of being victimized by terrorists when it was Israel that resorted to terrorism and ethnic cleansing in the first place. My problem is Israel's behavior. And I don't support terrorism on anyone's part.

You on the other hand decry terrorism committed by Arabs but support the terrorism committed by Israel.

And right here again tenguy. These are also lies. I have never once denied or even questioned Israel's right to exist. Now if you can find one post where I did, put it up big mouth, but otherwise as usual you're just lying.

Israel was thrust upon the Arabs not just without their consent but over their objections. But that is only one part of the problem. The other parts of the problem is the betrayal, manipulation, and exploitation of the Arabs by the West and the US.

Israel has a right to exist. Israel does not have a right to practice terrorism, ethnic cleansing, spawn wars, and commit war crimes against civilian populations.

Yeah right, it was the cold war that resulted in France and Britain carving up the region following World War I. It was the cold war and protecting Israel that motivated the US to install dictators like the Shaw of Iran and Saddam Hussein. Bullshit it was OIL, and only a fool would try to contend otherwise.

That has been true since 1954. That's why Israel instigated wars. That's why Israel could practice terrorism and ethnic cleansing with impunity. That's why Israel could steadfastly refuse to reach meaningful and fair peace settlements with the Palestinians and the other Arab states. Because Israel not only had a well equipped army but also the blind support of the West and the US.

But are you also contending that in order to protect themselves Israel needs to use banned weapons of civilian populations. Weapons such as cluster bombs, depleted Uranium and white phosphorus shells. Israel needs to kill nearly 1,000 people for every Israeli killed. If you are you are obviously the one that supports terrorism tenguy.

How naive? No, how stupid!!

Other nations did not carve up the middle east according to oil reserves. Other nations did not overthrow democratically elected governments for Oil. Other nations do not keep the very Royal dictators you are referring to in power despite the wishes of their people because for oil supplies.

All of that is nothing but exploitation of the Middle east for only one reason OIL.

If I'm the loser how come you're the one that can only put up personal attacks and lies that are so easily and obviously refuted right here, tenguy?

That's another thing you're pretty consistent about. Trying to hang the labels that apply to you on other people.

 

It's spelled Shah, not Shaw. Thought I should point that out for you Stumbler.

 

How utterly futile, you continue to make remarks in this and other threads, where you elude to the Arabs being wronged by the West in matters regarding Israel from the time of her creation to the present Gaza situation. But, you never fully acknowledge that the Arabs have been the aggressors since the 1920's, since the beginnings of the present State of Israel, there have been many outright attacks by Arab states on her borders, yet you have the audacity to think that she should not repel invaders and defend her sovereignty.

She defends herself not through terrorism, but through military actions against those who are terrorists and those who harbor them and support them. Your claim of Israeli terrorism rings hollow, the actions taken by them defy any definition to terrorism that I am aware of. Do the act decisively and with relentless force against the terrorist cells, yes. Do people who chose to back the terrorist become casualties, yes. Does Iran get to put Israel in bad light in the world by supporting and fostering terrorism against her, then screaming the inhumanity of their defensive tactics, yes.

Today the region is in a Israeli called cease fire, they have withdrawn their forces, yet Hamas runs around claiming victory. Victory in what, causing a thousand Palestinian deaths by their cowardly actions?

What I say regarding, my observation of your position, are not lies, it is my reading of your posts and the general tenor of them. Countless posts by you haranguing the West and Israel are evidence enough.

We agree that oil is a major culprit in the mix of the current state of affairs in the Middle East, we disagree on who is exploiting who.

 

Still lying tenguy and not very effectively at that. You try to oversimplify what I have said to attempt a feeble character assassination because you cannot refute the facts and documentation I have provided countless times.

Here's an example. I have never said that the Arab states did not attack Israel. What I have said and provided documentation of is that Israel resorted to terrorism and ethnic cleansing to push the Palestinians out of their newly created state. I have said and provided documentation that as early as 1954 Israel was planning to provoke wars with their Arab neighbors so they could make illegal land grabs, which they did. I have said and provided documentation that the idea that Israel is under constant threat of annihilation from their Arab neighbors is a carefully constructed and maintained myth.

And I have never said Israel does not have a right to defend itself. But Israel does not have the right to resort to terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and war crimes in the process.

I have already established quite well that Israel has resorted to terrorism so lets move on to war crimes. Does Israel commit war crimes and then protect the people responsible for them? YES!!

Israel promises troops legal backing over Gaza war


Sun Jan 25, 6:25 AM

By Jeffrey Heller

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - International calls to investigate Israel over alleged war crimes in the Gaza Strip prompted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday to promise military personnel state protection from foreign prosecution.


"The commanders and soldiers sent to Gaza should know they are safe from various tribunals and Israel will assist them on this front and defend them, just as they protected us with their bodies during the Gaza operation," Olmert said.


Last week, the military censor ordered local and foreign media in Israel to blur the faces of army commanders in photos and video footage of the Gaza war for fear they could be identified and arrested while traveling abroad.


Israeli media reports said the military had been advising its top brass to think twice about visiting Europe.


Speaking at the weekly cabinet meeting, Olmert said Israel's justice minister would consult with the country's top legal experts and find "answers to possible questions relating to the Israeli military's activities" during the 22-day war.


Some 1,300 Palestinians, including at least 700 civilians, were killed, medical officials said, in the offensive Israel launched in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip with the declared aim of ending cross-border rocket attacks.
The civilian deaths sparked public outcry abroad and prompted senior U.N. officials to demand independent investigations into whether Israel committed war crimes.


Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians, hit by rocket salvoes, were killed in the conflict.


Israel said hundreds of militants were among the Palestinian dead and that it tried its best to avoid civilian casualties in densely populated areas where gunmen operated.


WHITE PHOSPHOROUS
Rights group Amnesty International has said that Israel's use of white phosphorus munitions -- which can cause extreme burns -- in built-up areas of the Gaza Strip was indiscriminate and therefore constituted a war crime.


Israel has said it used all weapons in Gaza within the limits of international law. Its military, however, has opened an investigation into white phosphorous use during the conflict.


Palestinians have long demanded international prosecution of Israel's military crackdowns. Yet legal frameworks are problematic.


The International Criminal Court in The Hague has no jurisdiction to investigate in the Gaza Strip, as it is not a state. Though the Palestinian Authority has been functioning as an interim sovereign polity since 1993, it was forced out of Gaza last year by Hamas after the Islamists won an election.


And while Israel has not signed the Rome Statute that enshrined the ICC, it can still be investigated, but that would require a U.N. Security Council mandate. Any such proposal would probably be vetoed by Israel's ally, the United States.


Some European nations allow for war crimes lawsuits to be filed privately against members of Israel's security services.


In 2005, reserve Major-General Doron Almog, the former head of Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip, was warned by Israeli diplomats not to leave an El Al aircraft that landed in London after a tip-off British police were about to arrest him on war crimes charges.


A British Muslim group had won an arrest warrant alleging he breached the Fourth Geneva Convention in the demolition of Palestinian homes in 2002 in the southern Gaza Strip. Israel said the dwellings provided gave cover to gunmen.


Almog stayed on the plane and flew back to Israel.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090125/world/international_us_palestinians_israel_warcrimes

Lying again. Israel and Hamas have both declared unilateral ceasefires and adhered to them. But Israel is also refusing to lift the blockades that are starving the Palestinian people and Hamas is threatening to resume rocket attacks if the boarder crossings are not opened.

But hell yes Hamas is claiming victory and rightfully so because all they had to do is survive the onslaught and they would emerge stronger and more popular then ever before simply because to the Palestinians it appears that it is Israel that are the terrorists and war criminals and Hamas is standing up to them.

It was a no brainer from the beginning that Israel's aggression and invasion would only strengthen Hamas.

But as usual all you do is run your mouth without reading the sources myself and others have put up just like the article Dpm posted that outlines how Israel HELPED CREATE HAMAS.

You both lie and contradict yourself here tenguy. On the one hand you say you are not lying about what I've said and then on the other hand openly admit that you are reading your own prejudices into what I've said. Where you lie is you don't get to make up what you want me to say so you can mount a false attack. You have to be honest about what I did say.

That's why you keep trying to contend things that you also admit you have no evidence of.

No we only agree after you've made false statements that have been refuted with facts and documentation and then try to twist the argument into something else.

Who is exploiting who, tenguy? The greedy Arab leaders that we put in power? Iran, after we overthrew their decomcatically elected government and Installed a dictator, which created the Iran revolution. Iraq, after we put Saddam Hussein in power, kept him there and sold him the weapons and chemicals that he used on his own people?Lebanon after the US and Israel tried to put Christians in power? Syria which has taken more refugees then any other Arab state?

Answer these questions tenguy with facts and documentation instead of you blind, bigoted, empty rhetoric.

PS Thanks for correcting my spelling of Shah Urbanxplorer 90. I will try to remember that.

 

I oversimplify because you rant far too much. You think that quanity of words somehow trump a simple statement.

You are mostly pissed because I really see you for who you are. My condolences are to the blind in here.

 

Bullshit. You oversimplify because it is easier to you to make up lies and attempt character assassination because you're wrong but can't admit that no matter what.

No, I'm pissed because you make up lies and attempt character assassination and turn everything into a personal attack instead of debating an issue with objectivity, facts and documentation.

I'll gladly take my chances on two things here tenguy. One that people here are not blind. And two I have credibility while you are known for you dishonest tactics when it comes to debate.

And your simple statements are actually simply lies.

 

What ever you say.

We ALL know how truthful and intelligent you are.

 

I guess its time to resurrect a couple of threads again. One is the things you've said that are wrong on another of these Israel/Palestinian threads, and of course the other one would be the one I created to specifically point out your lies and character assassination and add these latest examples.