Interesting.
Shooters message, for one has been pretty clear. If trump did what clinton did, trump gets what clinton got.
Pretty sure everyone could agree with that, even dispicables.
No matter.
Carry on.

 

We are already seeing that right here on our little forum. Just look above. As if Trump stealing presidential records including the most highly classified we have can be compared to Hillary's emails. As well as seeing the excuses that its not that serious. But its looking more and more serious all the time. The National Archives hit back over a leaked letter confirming just in the first 15 boxes Trump did hand over there were more than 700 pages of classified documents. And that they worked for months to see what Trump had so they could at least conduct a national security assessment. And Trump just continued to defy them.

 

So, FACT: Trump took a heap of docs when he left that should have gone to the National Archives.
FACT: The docs included classified to Top Secret stuff.
FACT: Trump returned some but all of these docs and so they were seized with a warrant by the FBI.

But, QUESTION: Why did he do it? So far, it doesn't make sense that he figured he could just keep them.

 

The obvious answer is because Trump is literally and clinically mentally ill and a hoarder, He believes he is all powerful and everything belongs to him,

But the next most likely possibility is that he planned to sell them or leverage them for personal gain,.

 

Wet dream fantasies.
Whatever it takes, eh?

 

The next question I have is, couldn't Trump have made copies or scanned the docs electronically to satisfy whatever is in his mind to use them?

 

And he may have done just that, but it doesn't matter. A copy (electronic or otherwise) carries the same protections as the original.

 

Over the last few days a story has been circulating that a 2012 Federal court case could have a direct impact on Trump's current scandal. Shooter has been skeptical, but some research shows that indeed, the Feds have yet again stepped in a pile of shit of their own making.

So the story is, in 2012 Judicial Watch wanted to gain access to some audio tapes Bill had made while President that were supposed to be for a book. apparently, Judicial Watch was looking for more dirt on the whole "I did not have sex with that woman" thingy. Anyway, Clinton said nope, these are not presidential records, they're personal records. The National Archives sided with Clinton and Judicial watch got the courts involved. Their argument was in effect that a President can't just decide something is "personal" for convenience. Especially when the record includes government business, like appointing cabinet level positions and conversations with world leaders.

So the case lands on U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson's bench (a liberal judge by all accounts although that isn't very relevant to the case at hand) and she in fact ruled that indeed, a president, using his authority under the Presidential Records Act, can indeed declare a record "personal" and that is pretty much the end of the discussion. Oh, and on that same issue, a president can indeed declassify pretty much anything they want, with the exception of "nuclear secrets".

Now this being a Federal Case, it does apply to the Trump thingy, and since it was never appealed by anyone, it stands as case law and reasonable people can rely on it until such time as a higher court flips it.

Which leads us to the Trump thingy. In theory Trump could simply waive his presidential magic wand over a box of papers and declare a) that they are personal records and b) they are not classified or secret or anything. Well, not nuclear secrets, but anything else.
Really. Look up the case.
JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. v. NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION, No. 1:2010cv01834 - Document 13 (D.D.C. 2012)

Now, one could say an obscure case like this one isn't something the National Archives or the FBI or the DOJ could be expected to know about, right?
No. They knew. And they proceeded anyway. How can we know that? Because even before the seized records had left Mar a Lago, we were hearing that Trump had NUCLEAR SECRETS in his treasure trove of documents. Wasn't that curious? At the time didn't a lot of people go "huh. how odd." and of course despicable delusionists started screaming Trump was selling nuclear secrets to Russia, or maybe China or hell, even the Iranians and North Koreans.
Remember?
Now we know why, don't we? The single exception to a president's power to declassify secret documents is nuclear secrets. And if that's what the FBI was looking for that would make sense. But that isn't what they took, is it? At least, you know, what that rascal "anonymous" has been willing to reveal. And we do know they took Trump's passports and Roger Stone's pardon order, none of which are by any stretch "secret" much less "nuclear secret".

So why would the National Archives and the FBI and the DOJ so willingly step in a pile of shit they KNEW was laying there? And, along those same lines, why would they then really screw the pooch by taking stuff clearly not included in the warrant, and then not put it in the inventory, which any rookie cop would tell you fucks with your entire case?

Well, the conspiracy folks think its' because some of what Trump took were documents that detailed and exposed the skullduggery of the FBI in spying on Trump, and Hillary's Steele dossier scandal, and russiagate and the whole 2016 election shitshow. They'll do anything to keep those secrets, you know, secret.

Now Shooter isn't ready to subscribe to conspiracy theories. Yet.
But it does affirm what Shooter has asked for months;
Is trump really that innocent, or are his prosecutors that incompetent.
And the answer remains; yes.

 

First, this assumes Trump had some use in his mind, and second, a wholesale operation in the White House to scan classified documents would have attracted a lot more attention than a lot of boxes on moving day.

The documents Trump stole and kept in violation of several laws had no use to Trump, except as trophies. In the White House, people used to bring him pieces of paper that were very special, created just for him to see. Reading was not part of the process. Trump wanted to keep them as mementos and likely would have started waving them in front of guests. That was their use for Trump.

The problem is, Trump is too stupid to understand the risk of having some of these papers lying around Mar Lago, where anybody with an early bird buffet discount coupon could get to them. Trump is the perfect illustration of the expression, "give him enough rope and he'll hang himself". He is facing investigations for tax fraud and treason, which are fairly difficult to prove because both depend upon proving motive. That's bad enough, certainly expensive enough, but then Trump goes and commits a felony that is defined solely by his actions, with no regard as to why he did it.

To top it off, when his crime is exposed, he digs his heels in and doubles down. It's no wonder Trump is having trouble finding a good lawyer. A client's guilt is not supposed to be a concern for a good lawyer, only that they are treated fairly under the law. Trump's problem is he keeps getting guiltier as the day goes on. There's just no way to keep up.

 

So Bron, whaddya think? Since it turns out all Trump had to do is wave his presidential magic wand over a box of stuff and declare "Personal" and not even the National Archives can say different or have a right to grab them. Anything but nuclear secrets.
See? Says so right there in the case law. Case law from Clinton's administration even, which, you gotta admit, is pretty hilarious eh?

 

Pretty sure they already know.
But who knows?
This comedy of errors is increasingly falling under the "You couldn't make this shit up" category, eh?

 

Making shit up is a Trump specialty and it's become a cottage industry for his supporters.

 

Ah.
Well, that explains everything.
Thank you for clarifying that bron.
*swear to God, now even Bron is infected.

 

That is not what the law, specifically the Presidential Records Act says. All presidential records must first be handed over to the National Archives where they can be inventoried and cataloged. And then the National Archives can release records for the president's library. Which every other president except Trump has done.

And when we see treasonous conservative/America Hating/Republicans try to argue otherwise or make up excuses for Trump all they are really saying is Trump is their Chosen One and he is above all laws, the Constitution, and even national security.


Trump claims he needs White House records back so he can eventually add them to his presidential library
Lloyd Lee
Tue, August 23, 2022 at 2:52 PM·3 min read




Former President Donald Trump speaks at the Road to Majority conference on June 17, 2022, in Nashville, Tennessee.Mark Humphrey/AP

• 
  Donald Trump filed a motion on Monday to have a "special master" review materials seized by the FBI.
  
  
• Trump also demanded the documents be returned so that he can give them back to the National Archives.
  
  
• The National Archives previously asked for the files before the agency approached the DOJ around February.
  

Donald Trump asked for all documents taken from his Mar-a-Lago home to be returned so that he can give the files back to the National Archives and Records Administration, while also claiming they will be needed again later for his presidential library.

"This Mar-a-Lago Break-in Search, And Seizure was illegal and unconstitutional, and we are taking all actions necessary to get the documents back, which we would have given to them without the necessity of the despicable raid of my home, so that I can give them to the National Archives until they are required for the Donald J. Trump Presidential Library and Museum," Trump said on Monday in a press release posted on Truth Social.

The former president's statement came with his announcement of a lawsuit his attorneys filed in a Florida federal court on Monday.

The suit asks for a "special master," which is a court-appointed party, to review all the White House documents seized from his Palm Beach home by the FBI on August 8, along with a "more detailed" list of the items taken.

Trump's demand comes many months after the National Archives requested the return of any White House files throughout 2021. The agency then asked the Justice Department to investigate if the former president broke any federal laws.

It's also one in a series of ever-changing motives he's given for taking official documents — some of which are now known to be classified — by claiming that he needed the documents for his presidential library.

Trump previously said the documents were taken by accident, brought home from work, and that some of them were planted by the FBI.

DOJ spokesman Anthony Coley, in a statement to CNBC and other news organizations on Trump's action, said "The Aug. 8 search warrant at Mar-a-Lago was authorized by a federal court upon the required finding of probable cause. The Department is aware of this evening's motion. The United States will file its response in court."

His claim appears to stem from his previous defense regarding former President Barack Obama and how he transferred White House documents for his own presidential library. In Obama's case, a standard legal process for transferring White House records was followed.

Trump was set to receive the 15th presidential library. The National Archives set up a website soon after he left office, but the plans for the library so far have been nebulous.

A spokesman for Trump did not immediately return a request for comment.

Read the original article on Business Insider


https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims-needs-white-house-205212028.html

 

Well, that isn't true though, is it stumbler?

In 2012 Judicial Watch wanted to gain access to some audio tapes Bill had made while President that were supposed to be for a book. Clinton said nope, these are not presidential records, they're personal records. Judicial watch's argument was in effect that a President can't just decide something is "personal" for convenience. Especially when the record includes government business, like appointing cabinet level positions and conversations with world leaders. U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson ruled that indeed, a president, using his authority under the Presidential Records Act, can indeed declare a record "personal" and that is pretty much the end of the discussion.

So first, the President is under no obligation to turn personal records over to the archives. And second, whatever the president says is personal is in fact personal, end of story. Including TOP SECRET documents, as long as they aren't nuclear secrets.

And third, Clinton, for one, did not turn over records that arguably were government records, unless you want to argue that discussions about firing and hiring cabinet level officials and conversations with world leaders are not government business.

And fourth, it isn't Shooter saying this stuff, its a court decision that said it in 2012, in connection with a Bill Clinton case, that a conservative group wanted and which the court said "no can do".
Which gives the entire mess a certain ................. humor, don't you agree?

 

Okay, the Trump Presidential Library is the funniest thing I've heard today. Trump is the only person who has written more books than he has read.

 

Attaboy

 

Fox News!
The Trump Mar-a-Lago search was justified
Ever since news broke two weeks ago that the FBI had executed a search warrant on former President Donald Trump’s residence at Mar-a-Lago, the political world has been aflame with hyperbole, accusations, innuendo, and hysteria.

Every legal pundit and pundits pretending to know something about the law have emerged to try and explain what is really happening here. And the former president and his allies, as is their custom, have sought to flood the zone with political justifications and haphazard legal explanations to deflect from his conduct.

The truth needs to be set forth plainly and simply, and so let’s get down to brass tacks here. What happened on August 8, 2022, was not tyranny. It was not political persecution. It was not a minor dust up over bureaucratic processes blown out of proportion. It was the criminal justice system operating just like it does with any other private citizen on any other given day ending in a "y."


Trump was the president and commander-in-chief up until noon on January 20, 2021. The moment Joe Biden took the Oath of Office, Trump became just another private citizen in his 70s who vacations in Florida during the winter months to avoid the bitter cold back in his native home in the Northeast. He was no longer shielded by any privileges or protections of the Office of the Presidency at the point beyond physical security protection. He is subject to the laws of the United States just like anyone else.
What also is true is that Trump had particular legal obligation as the former president to properly turn over presidential records to the National Archives and Records Administration. That is mandated by the Presidential Records Act because those records are the property of the United States. They are not Trump’s personal property.

In a competent White House, this process would have started within days of his election loss and would have been completed well in advance of his departure for Florida on January 20, 2021. It was not.

Trump spent his final two months desperately trying in the courts, and later through state legislatures and ultimately the January 6, 2021 rally, to reverse his election loss. Document archival was not high on his priority list.

The result was apparently more than 25 boxes’ worth of presidential records were shipped to Florida and stored in a basement at Mar-a-Lago. If this were a mere issue of simply recovering unclassified presidential records, though, there likely never would have been a criminal element to this matter. But buried into those boxes were countless properly marked classified documents. Those documents lacked any markings indicating that Trump had ever declassified them. No actual substantiated evidence indicates Mr. Trump ever declassified them. No one viewing those records would have any reason to view them as anything other than properly classified documents.
The government tried to recover the documents peacefully and quietly. They spent one year discussing the matter with Trump’s staff, and 15 boxes were sent back to NARA in February.

After identifying more missing records, the government returned in June with a subpoena and found more boxes of records that should have been returned. Both times, properly marked classified documents – up to and including documents marked as Top Secret and requiring Sensitive Compartmented Information access eligibility – were located within the boxes.

A Trump lawyer swore out an affidavit promising there were no more documents. The government gathered evidence that the Trump lawyer was not being truthful, and on August 8, 2022, a court-authorized search warrant was executed that, sure enough, located several more classified documents.

That is not an abuse of law enforcement processes. That is how the law works.

You cannot remove properly marked classified documents and place them in a location not authorized for retention of classified documents. You cannot obstruct a federal investigation seeking to lawfully recover those documents. You cannot present false statements to federal investigators.

Our jails are filled with people who have gone to jail for less. Search warrants are executed on properties and residences every day by local, state and federal law enforcement authorities in a manner no different than what happened at Mar-a-Lago. Those individuals’ lawyers also are not permitted to impede or micromanage the execution of the warrant, just as Trump’s lawyers were not permitted to do so.


Those search warrants also tend to result in agents rummaging through areas that contain personal items but which fall within the scope of the search warrant, just as happened at Mar-a-Lago. The individuals subject to the search warrant also are not permitted access to the underlying probable cause affidavit unless and until there is an actual criminal indictment. Trump is not special in that regard.

None of this means former President Trump will ultimately be indicted. He very well might be, and other individuals who removed properly marked classified records from secure locations have been prosecuted and sent to prison for that offense.

If Trump is indicted, he will have access to the full criminal justice process and can make every declassification defense he wishes at that time in pre-trial motions.

Until that time, let the justice system run its course.

 

Ok @shootersa I have given you enough rope to hang yourself on this so its time to drop the door. You are simply making all this up. The court said nothing of the kind. So let's all get a good laugh out of your lies.

And what is the most hilarious thing about this and the reason I waited so long to hang you with it is because it so totally and utterly destroys Trump stealing 25 or 30 boxes of official presidential records including TS/SCI and Special Access program material out of the White House. The Presidential Records Act does provide for the National Archives to turn to the DOJ to recover presidential records illegally taken which is exactly what the National Archives did after Trump not only refused to return the presidential records he stole but was also found in possession of top secret material. I have been getting great laughs over this.


Its a short article but it will do.

Judge won't seize Bill Clinton-Taylor Branch audiotapes

By JOSH GERSTEIN

03/01/2012 12:19 PM EST

A federal judge has dismissed a conservative legal group's lawsuit seeking to force the National Archives to demand audiotapes author Taylor Branch made of President Bill Clinton during his years in office.

Acting Thursday on the suit from Judicial Watch, U.S. District Court Judge Amy Jackson said there was no obvious legal mechanism that the Archives could use to force Clinton to turn over the recordings. She also said it wouldn't be legally proper for her to issue such an order in any event since the Archives has discretion about when to assert the government's rights under the Presidential Records Act.

"The Court has seriously [sic] doubts about whether the former President’s retention of the audiotapes as personal is a matter that is subject to judicial review. But the Court need not decide this question because whether judicial review is available or not, the relief that plaintiff seeks – that the Archivist assume 'custody and control' of the audiotapes – is not available under the PRA," Jackson wrote in her decision (posted here).

Judicial Watch sought the tapes from the Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, but was told that they are not and have never been in the custody of the Archives, which runs the library. In addition, then-Deputy Archivist Adrienne Thomas said she was declining to deem the records to be "presidential records" under the law.

"We respectfully disagree with the Court," Judicial Watch president Tom Fitton told POLITICO via e-mail Thursday. "The idea that a president could spirit official recordings and documents out of the White House and that there is nothing that can be legally done about it is a misreading of the Presidential Records Act. It is ironic that a law passed in response to the Nixon tapes controversy would allow Bill Clinton to keep tapes of his official actions secret and unavailable to the American people. And it is shameful that the ‘most transparent administration in history’ would defend this gamesmanship. We are considering an appeal.”

The Presidential Records Act, passed in response to disputes over President Richard Nixon's records following his resignation from office, does include a procedure for the Archives to ask the Attorney General to try to recover official presidential records. But, Jackson wrote, "The statute does not mandate that NARA invoke this enforcement scheme but rather vests complete discretion with the agency to utilize that mechanism."

Branch made the tapes privately with Clinton at the White House. Clinton reportedly stored them in a sock drawer for a time. They became the basis for Branch's 2009 book, appropriately named: "The Clinton Tapes."

Judicial Watch claims the tapes weren't just interviews, but are official records in part because they sometimes captured Clinton's telephone conversations with others.

UPDATE: This post has been updated with comment from Judicial Watch.

https://www.politico.com/blogs/unde...-bill-clinton-taylor-branch-audiotapes-116074


And for bonus points now let's take a look at Judicial Watch.






Judicial Watch







QUESTIONABLE SOURCE
A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section of that source. See all Questionable sources.

• Overall, we rate Judicial Watch Questionable based on extreme right-wing bias, promotion of conspiracy theories, and an abysmal fact-check record.

Detailed Report
Reasoning: Conspiracy, Propaganda, Numerous Failed Fact Checks
Bias Rating: FAR RIGHT
Factual Reporting: LOW
Country: USA
Press Freedom Rank: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY










History
Founded in 1994 by Larry Klayman, Judicial Watch (JW) is an American conservative activist group that files Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits to investigate government officials’ alleged misconduct. They primarily target Democrats such as the Clinton’s, Obama, and climate scientists as they label climate science “fraud science.” Judicial Watch has made numerous false and unsubstantiated claims, with a “vast majority” of their lawsuits dismissed. They describe themselves as “a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation that promotes transparency, accountability, and integrity in government, politics, and the law.” The current President of JW is Tom Fitton.

Read our profile on the United States government and media.

Funded by / Ownership
Judicial Watch is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization with contributions from individuals, foundations, and corporations. According to Sourcewatch, JW receives funding from prominent right-wing organizations such as the Carthage Foundation and Scaife Foundation.

Analysis / Bias
Judicial Watch reports news on their website using strong emotional language, usually pro-right or anti-left. Typical topics covered are anti-immigration, in which they highlight crimes committed by illegal immigrants, such as this: Busy Month for Illegal Immigrants Committing Heinous Crimes or dedicating an entire website to exposing former President Obama’s alleged IRS scandal.


They have also promoted debunked conspiracy theories such as this. Further, the founder of JW, Larry Klayman, recently promoted the conspiracy that the Clintons were killing people. Finally, they routinely promote conspiracy theories claimed by Former President Trump that are usually debunked. See failed fact checks below. Generally, most content and story selection is anti-left and not always factual.

Failed Fact Checks

• DHS Quietly Moving, Releasing ‘Vanloads’ of ‘Illegal Aliens’ Away from Border – FALSE
• Has Nancy Pelosi spent $100,000 on food, booze, and “partying” during her air travel? – FALSE
• Judicial Watch says ISIS operating a camp in Mexico–near El Paso – FALSE
• ‘Islamic Refugee’ with Gas Pipeline Plans Arrested in New Mexico Border County – FALSE
• Did the IRS ‘Fast Track’ Tax-Exempt Status for ‘After School Satan’ Clubs? – FALSE
• “More than 100,000 DACA applicants have been arrested—Murder, Rape, DUI.” – MOSTLY FALSE
• Did a legal settlement between Judicial Watch and California election officials prove that one million illegal votes were cast in the 2018 elections in California? – FALSE
• Donald Trump was allowed to destroy classified documents – MOSTLY FALSE

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/judicial-watch/

 

Why stumbler!
A new despicable low, even for you!
Why isn't the decision itself quoted?
You know, the part about Clinton said the tapes were private, and the national archives or the court have no authority to change that?

That was the whole point wasn't it?

HMMMM?