Ok I'll be the first to admit that I have had some disappointments and frustrations with Barack Obama and his performance as President so far. But he is restoring my confidence now as he pushes ahead with Health Care Reform. Last week when he was out of the country people and in the House and Senate were saying they did not think there was anyway they could get health bills out before the August recess.

However, once Obama began to put pressure on them through speeches, interviews and rolling out a new Ad campaign things are moving again and both the House and Senate have now advanced health care reform bills. I much perfer what I'm seeing coming out of the House because they are squarely behind a public option insurance plan but at least the Senate is now sending their bill out of committee.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090716/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul_89

 

It means as much as telling someone in North Korea that he has the right to criticize his government.

 

Not at all, you need to put yourself in their place and time. The African was not viewed as a full human and their bible had stories of slavery being an acceptable form of manual labor. They were told not to mistreat their slaves, but not to avoid having them.

The concept of slavery being wrong really didn't begin to take hold in the mainstream until the run up to the civil war. The concept of Africans being completely human is still hard for some to understand, what would it have been like to those in that era?

No doubt some of the support for slavery came from a matter of convenience. How else could the plantation owners produce cheap produce at a profit. It is similar to China and other Asian countries producing product at low cost because of quasi-slavery.

Are we any better than the founding fathers, since we crave the products these poor souls produce? Aren't we making accusations, while indirectly supporting slavery?

 

I dunno tenguy. That makes a pretty good story but I think the founders were far more savvy than that. Savvy enough anyway to play both sides of the slavery game. Here's Thomas Jefferson's approach to slavery in the rough draft of the Declaration of Independence:

https://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/rough.htm

Now notice how Jefferson gets really whipped up on it
and accuses King George of fostering this cruel war against
humman nature itself.

But you sure don't see that in the final draft.
So its clear they could play slavery both ways.

I think if we look at the rough draft of the Declaration of Independence we can see the concept of slavery being wrong preceded the civil war by quite a bit. I don't think it was a question of right and wrong as much as it was economics.

I don't think you can compare slavery with what is happening in China and other Asian countries at all. For one thing those people can be bought and sold. But more importantly those people even though they are paid what we consider to be very substandard wages, they think they're getting a pretty good deal.

Yeah since there is no comparison between people working for a living, even if they have to work hard and cheap, and slavery I think we can draw the conclusion we are better than our founders. And not I don't think we're indirectly supporting slavery at all because there's no comparison.

But I do have to point out again that nobody ever asked me if I craved cheap products manufactured in foreign countries. If they had I'd have told them hell no. We don't need cheap products we need jobs and should keep our jobs here even if we have to pay a little more for our products, goods and services.

 

What it's gonna cost ya

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/16/AR2009071602242.html

 

Personally I hope the go with this option:

Maybe even kick that sucker up to 10% or 15%, maybe 20%. Then it won't cost me anything.

 

That works for me as well.

 

Where does the line for the free lunch start??

Ah, the liberals and their unselfish motivation. Let's worry about these poor folks health care, but what the hell, let's get it for ourselves as well. Someone else can pay for it, like our grandchildren's children.

 

I have high hopes that my grandchildren's children will be proud of their great-grandparents for doing their best to ensure that their basic health care, and everyone else's, is guaranteed by the society the live in.

And tenguy, in case you didn't know, we pay taxes too...to support Bush's wars, and to support a plethora of corporate welfare programs. I'd much rather pay for a poor family's medical care.

 

With the deficit as high as it is and growing more rapidly than anytime in our history, your chidren's, children's, children are going to be facing one hell of a public debt.


Free health care for the poor, we all pretty much agree to that, but as you agreed to above, you would like someone to pay for yours as well.

 

No, I agreed that I had no problem taxing people making over $350,000 a year to pay for it.

And why won't you at least acknowledge that the current increase in the deficit is necessary to address the short term economic situation, and that if it's successful and we return to a period of economic growth, the deficit can then be reduced?

 

More on What it's gonna cost ya

From the Washington Post, quoting the Congressional Budget Office:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/16/AR2009071602242_pf.html

And From the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124779717982855785.html


And, on the plebian side, the New York Post:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07172009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_broken_promises_179667.htm


I think we're reaching the tipping point here, and I predict, thankfully, that Health Care Socialism is dead for now.

 

Class warfare - now there's a good plan.....

The deficit the Obama administration inherited was targeted at addressing the short term economic situation, the Obama "Stimulus Plan" is a gigantic pile of porkbarrel spending aimed at redistributing the wealth of the country to leftwing mouths. The package was crafted not by the white house, but by the democratic congress. As of the most recent figures, only 10% of the "Stimulus" funds have actually been obligated to be spent. Most of it won't even be issued until 2010. How's that going to help a short term situation? The people have caught on, and that's why socialized medicine, with its trillion dollar plus price tag, won't happen this year.

 

Well, we'll just see about that, won't we....

Class warfare has been going on in this country for decades now...you're just upset because the victims of it are starting to fight back.

 

Love your response

 

Once again I can only laugh at our free market capitalists who constantly champion it until it comes to Obama and the deficit and then contend there is no way our free market capitalism can reduce the budget deficit.

And I'm with you. For far too long rich people and the mega corporations have had the game rigged in their favor even though it has hurt as a nation. Its about time we started looking after the majority of Americans instead of the top 5%.

She didn't either tenguy and I bet you know that. And as for me I refuse to use the little emocons to denote humor or sarcasm. If you can't tell when I'm not being serious that's your problem.

So go a head and get your panties all in a wad. That's why I said it.

Like I said its one of their key points of hypocrisy. Free market capitalism in the savior for everything unless the democrats do it then all of a sudden free market capitalism won't work.

And I doubt you'll ever get tenguy to acknowledge anything.

I think its closer to 15% but I'd have to look that up.

But what you fail to acknowledge is that the stimulus package was designed on a two year plan in the first place. And the most important thing you refuse to admit is the stimulus package is a great investment for America's future which lately has been slipping on the world stage.

New energy, increased emphasis on science as well as research and development, a better educational system so we can keep up with the rest of the world are great investments. If we apply what Obama is doing to a business model it makes perfect sense. What successful business model does not do operation and maintenance (the infrastructure part of the stimulus plan) research and development of new products (the energy, and science portion of the situmulus package) and continuing education. Businesses don't do those things fail and the ones that do prosper.

 

Since there appears to be attempts to keep the status quo and avoid passing any kind of meaningful health care reform, which would include a strong public health care insurance option I thought it might be informative to repeat what my all time favorite Noble Prize winning economist Paul Krugman has to say about it:

July 17, 2009, 8:28 pm The six deadly hypocrites

Will the destructive center kill health care reform? It looks all too possible.
What’s especially galling is the hypocrisy of their claimed reason for delaying progress — concern about the fiscal burden. After all, in the past most of them have shown no concern at all for the nation’s long-term fiscal outlook.


Case in point: the Medicare Modernization Act of 2003, which denied Medicare the right to bargain for lower drug prices, locked in overpayments to private insurance companies, and did nothing, nothing at all, to pay for its proposed outlays. How many of these six self-proclaimed defenders of solvency voted no on the crucial procedural vote? One. (Joe Lieberman, to my surprise.)


And let’s not forget that Ben Nelson, who appears to be the ringleader, has fought tooth and nail against competition from a public option — which would almost certainly save a significant amount of money, as well as providing much-needed competition.


If the Gang of Six really does kill reform, remember their names; they will bear the responsibility for vast, unnecessary suffering over the years to come.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/the-six-deadly-hypocrites/

 

Let's talk about that Congressional Budget office prtndr and the utter hypocrisy of the Republicans who now claim the CBO preaches the Gospel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/17/gop-scoffed-at-cbo-score_n_238409.html


Yeah, sure now the Republicans have gotten CBO religion but their hypocrisy won't go away.

 

Republicans have no credibility on the deficit. Look at this chart:
https://zfacts.com/p/318.html