So,, what was WI supposed to do. The Democrats leave the state to avoid a substantial, well needed debate over financial deficits.

Now the left and the public unions are calling foul,,,what a pathetic joke the left and the public unions are.

 

Hi Kimiko: Thanks for the reply. I didn't read this whole entire thread...and I am not picking on anyone. Anyways, my worth is what the market will pay (i.e. what an employer in the open market will hire me for). No more and no less. However, I could get a local City job in the same field and automatically make about 35% more off the bat, plus all the union goodies I could grab on to.

Benefits are an operating cost and so are taxes. Both are included as operting costs when an employee is hired. It might not seem like much, but a salary of $40k is not all the employer pays.

It's a known fact that Federal/government workers are paid more for the same job title as the open market simply because they work for "taxpayers." Add all the benefits (don't forget all the extra days off a year they get-those cost too), and the inbalance is even more glaring.

It's also extrememly difficult for a union member to be fired even if their work is sub par, or whatever the reason. Also, if a memeber fails to go to work, no biggie. They still get paid and can go back to work when they feel like it. This is not how it works in real life for most of us.
Actually, my point can be made vaild by the actions of the the MIA WI representatives. I think they have done more damage to WI than the unions or those who destroyed the cap. bldg. These actions will be reflected in the next election.

401k? Worthless. Just like the stock market. Today you might have 20k in one and tomorrow, nothing. I know this as a fact too. In the grand scheme of potential investments, 401k options are shaky and subject to other people you don't know playing with your money. And you pay them to do it.

 

Those MIA ELECTED representatives should have done what every other American would have and stood up for what they believed!! Instead they literally turned their backs and ran to a hideout. Who runs from their job like that? What about thier families? Did they leave them too? No kids in school? No dinner? NO PARENTING! Pathetic. THEY RAN TO ANOTHER STATE NO LESS!!! Speaks volumes.

We VOTE and the MAJORITY wins. All American. It's how we work and it's not going to change just because of the unions or because the Democrates don't like it! And the Replublcians are blamed for all the woes! It's not like they passed it without trying to get them to come to the table, or did it behind closed doors, or stuck it into another bill somewhere. All things Democrats seem to be very talented at.

Priceless.

 

I have a sister-in-law who is a lifetime union member and organizer.

 

I want to go back to the example of Harley Davidson laying off employees and watching thier profits climb as a result in spite of falling sales. In the short term that works but at some point when your revenues depend on sales of a product you reach a point of diminishing returns.Sooner or later production and sales have to start going up in order to maintain cash flow. Over the long term the model of simply laying people off falls apart. When you spread this tactic out over an entire economy it becomes harder and harder for anyone to increase sales since the bulk of the workforce is now out of work and can no longer afford your product.

 

And what is her position, with what company?

 

You seem to be arguing both sides. If you want a better deal from your employer, with a decent pension to replace that 401(k) you deem worthless, collective bargaining is your only real option.

You also recite "facts" that simply aren't true. Federal government workers in jobs requiring a college degree are actually paid LESS than those in comparable jobs in the private sector.

I understand that benefits are a cost to the employer. What I object to is including such costs selectively and in a misleading manner. If I ask you what your salary is, or what you're making, you aren't going to add in the cost or value of your benefits.

 

If I ask the man on the street what he's making, do you think HE's going to include the value of his benefit package? Nobody thinks in those terms, nobody speaks in those terms.

The result is that the average person comes away from the discussion thinking everyone's making more than HE is.

 

Exactly. But the cost is still there. The point is that everyone knows union members have automatic and significant benefits that open market employees don't.

 

It was a political master stroke in the face of a dishonest attempt to bust Wisconsin public employee unions. And had Governor Walker told the truth about what he intended to do if elected governor he would not have been elected.

Meanwhile you've reached a laughable level of dramatics.

The democrats, actually taking a move from Texas democrats back in the 1990's did the same thing and left the state. That gave people time to find out what the governor and republicans were actually up and protest against it. It also provided enough time for Wisconsin residents to find out and oppose Governor Walker and the Republicans. And finally it provided the time and incentive for fund raising which is being used as we speak to help promote the recall of Wisconsin Republicans.

Really is that what been happening in Washington DC for the past two years? The majority cast their votes and the conservative/Republican/Tea Baggers accept that and work with the new majority?

This is the second time you've made me laugh in the same post.

And while I haven't even checked yet I'm betting court cases against the Republicans are already being filed and the law will be turned over because the Republicans violated the open meetings law when they passed it.

 

Two points. First, that's a great argument for collective bargaining in the private sector, not for public employees to make less. Second, I object to your use of the phrase "open market". In a truly open market, employees have the right to join together and bargain collectively. You seem to prefer a world in which workers are powerless.

 

Oh oh; this is gonna hurt

Associated Press

GOP won't vote on union bill without Democrats

By RYAN J. FOLEY , 02.21.11, 01:44 PM EST

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/02/21/general-us-wisconsin-budget-unions_8318634.html


I bet broadcasting that lie far and wide will help the recall efforts.

 

I didn't notice the Republicans rolling over and playing dead in 2008 because Democrats swept the elections that year. They seem to be very selective about when the winning team has a mandate to run amok.

 

But this is not what is being discussed. It is a reality that the cost of employing a worker, for any position, in any sector, carries related expenses with it .

Those expenses may not be visible to the average guy on the street, but that does not make them irrelevant. The net profit of any enterprise is directly effected by the total cost of operating it, not just those that you or the public wants to see.

This is particularly true in the public sector, because the expenses related to the employment of staff are frequently buried in administrative costs. But, again, that does not make them disappear.

Besides salary/hourly pay, there are many of related costs that every employer faces: FICA; Medicare tax; FUTA; SUTA; Workers comp. insurance; Employers contribution to health insurance; paid holidays; sick days, personal days and vacation time; contributions to profit sharing plans; contributions to pension plans; contributions to continuing education; all add to the total cost of employing a person.

The absolute simplest legal employment has at least 13% of the gross wages as directly related expenses. In certain jobs, such as the construction industry, that can easily grow to 30%, due to higher workers comp insurance rates.

 

Oh yeah, I really trust him on this.

 

The Republicans in congress are just like the Wisconsin Republicans. They would not have been elected had they told the truth about wanting to cut medicare and privatize Social Security which are their true goals.

But let's look at what the Republicans have actually done since they got elected. Aside from trying to turn back the clock on The Affordable Health Care Act all they've really done is go back to their Christian Fundamentalist agenda of trying to outlaw abortion, and force a moral agenda on the rest of the nation.

In the meantime jobless claims rose again this week after falling for several previous weeks.

 

Yada, yada, yada. Same old rhetoric, but still without any teeth.

 

That was an out and out lie and I bet it comes back to bite him and Governor Walker on the ass.

And one way I think we might be able to assess that is by how many signatures they are gathering on their recall petitions and how much money the Wisconsin democrats are raising.

I'll research that a little later.

 

How unions help all workers

Strong unions in any field benefit non unionized employees in that field because employers must pay more to compete for employees. Also, employers have the incentive to keep wages and benefits high in order to discourage union drives.

-------
Lawrence Mishel Matthew Walters
August 26, 2003

Unions have a substantial impact on the compensation and work lives of both unionized and non-unionized workers. This report presents current data on unions' effect on wages, fringe benefits, total compensation, pay inequality, and workplace protections.Some of the conclusions are:

• Unions raise wages of unionized workers by roughly 20% and raise compensation, including both wages and benefits, by about 28%.

• Unions reduce wage inequality because they raise wages more for low- and middle-wage workers than for higher-wage workers, more for blue-collar than for white-collar workers, and more for workers who do not have a college degree.

• Strong unions set a pay standard that nonunion employers follow. For example, a high school graduate whose workplace is not unionized but whose industry is 25% unionized is paid 5% more than similar workers in less unionized industries.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_bp143/

 

Yeppers, that's what I thought

Progressive groups raise $200,000 in hours after WI vote, will target vulnerable GOP lawmakers

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/...wi-vote-will-target-vulnerable-gop-lawmakers/


I've also been watching the donations coming into ActBlue which has raised about $330,000 so far for the recall election efforts to unseat Wisconsin Republicans.


http://www.actblue.com/page/orangetoblue2012?refcode=3_09_Recallk